Paladin Raid Tanking

[Clbull]

Paladins have too many problems to be considered as tanks:

1. Lack of taunt - this one's a real dealbreaker because even if an encounter doesn't need you to rotate tanks, the moment you lose aggro to a damage dealer, your raid is going to wipe.
2. Shitty threat generation. Their damage is pitifully low and Righteous Fury does not make up for this.
3. They're gimped by really stupid talents like Redoubt and Reckoning, which proc when you are the victim of a critical strike. Hitting the Defense cap in order to become crit immune is a required aspect of raid tanking. This one particularly neuters their ability to hit the Avoidance cap, since they won't be getting a 30% increased block chance at all if they don't receive a crit.
4. Paladin specific gear is optimised for healing, driving the emphasis that they're a healing class first and foremost.

Even if Greater Blessing of Kings spamming still worked, which the consensus of this thread suggests it doesn't, that's still just one of four crippling weaknesses alleviated.

Feral druids may also lack in itemization, crit immunity and avoidance, but unlike Protection Paladins, they have strengths which offset these weaknesses to a significant enough degree that raids may consider them. They deal more damage and threat than Naxx geared Warriors despite their (lack of) damage scaling from gear, they have a much higher health and armour pool which is great for soaking up crits, their BiS damage dealing weapon is a mid level drop from Gnomeregan of all places,

[Heladys]

In this thread: Wanting it to be different doesn't make it be different.

[dfinan]

Paladins have too many problems to be considered as tanks:

1. Lack of taunt - this one's a real dealbreaker because even if an encounter doesn't need you to rotate tanks, the moment you lose aggro to a damage dealer, your raid is going to wipe.
2. Shitty threat generation. Their damage is pitifully low and Righteous Fury does not make up for this.
3. They're gimped by really stupid talents like Redoubt and Reckoning, which proc when you are the victim of a critical strike. Hitting the Defense cap in order to become crit immune is a required aspect of raid tanking. This one particularly neuters their ability to hit the Avoidance cap, since they won't be getting a 30% increased block chance at all if they don't receive a crit.
4. Paladin specific gear is optimised for healing, driving the emphasis that they're a healing class first and foremost.

Even if Greater Blessing of Kings spamming still worked, which the consensus of this thread suggests it doesn't, that's still just one of four crippling weaknesses alleviated.

Feral druids may also lack in itemization, crit immunity and avoidance, but unlike Protection Paladins, they have strengths which offset these weaknesses to a significant enough degree that raids may consider them. They deal more damage and threat than Naxx geared Warriors despite their (lack of) damage scaling from gear, they have a much higher health and armour pool which is great for soaking up crits, their BiS damage dealing weapon is a mid level drop from Gnomeregan of all places,

I can confirm the GBoK spam does work to grab threat. As in BWL I have had mobvs from the other side of the room path straight to me in the razorgore fight becasue it was grabbing threat, same thing with gars adds and the adds in phase 1 of nefarian in BWL as well as phase 1 and 3 of onyxia.

[Raugnaut]

So let me give you a situation we ran into last night. we pulled Geddon in MC and the warrior tank had to run out as he (geddon) immediately AOEed while he was coming down the tunnel. A couple of ranged had opened on him and the healers had some threat too but the tank hadn't had an opportunity to build threat. So... he taunted and Geddon came back to him. Aside from the fact that I died to someone who was the bomb and didnt move fast enough, all was fine.

That's how taunt is useful. So, what would a pally tank have done there?



Sure but when it IS useful it tends to be critical, not just nice to have. So, do you want a tank who can tank every fight regardless of whether taunt is needed or not? Or do you want to fill that slot with a tank who's fine on some fights and a liability on others?

Forget that you want to raid tank as a pally... think like the raid leader. You're choosing a warrior tank not a pally if you have the option.

The paladin woulda spammed GBOK while running thus generating threat and never losing aggro in the first place.

Personally, the issue here is that while the Paladin IS generating threat, he's not doing any damage. Note that any threat generated that surpasses what the dps are producing is WASTED threat. While this almost never comes into play since more damage tends to equal more threat gen, It would in this case. Thus, as long as a Warrior can hold aggro and the DPS don't have to throttle themselves, they can spend extra resources towards dealing damage.

Also, can you dodge/block/parry while casting

[Highelf]

Paladins have too many problems to be considered as tanks:

1. Lack of taunt - this one's a real dealbreaker because even if an encounter doesn't need you to rotate tanks, the moment you lose aggro to a damage dealer, your raid is going to wipe.
2. Shitty threat generation. Their damage is pitifully low and Righteous Fury does not make up for this.
3. They're gimped by really stupid talents like Redoubt and Reckoning, which proc when you are the victim of a critical strike. Hitting the Defense cap in order to become crit immune is a required aspect of raid tanking. This one particularly neuters their ability to hit the Avoidance cap, since they won't be getting a 30% increased block chance at all if they don't receive a crit.
4. Paladin specific gear is optimised for healing, driving the emphasis that they're a healing class first and foremost.

Even if Greater Blessing of Kings spamming still worked, which the consensus of this thread suggests it doesn't, that's still just one of four crippling weaknesses alleviated.

Feral druids may also lack in itemization, crit immunity and avoidance, but unlike Protection Paladins, they have strengths which offset these weaknesses to a significant enough degree that raids may consider them. They deal more damage and threat than Naxx geared Warriors despite their (lack of) damage scaling from gear, they have a much higher health and armour pool which is great for soaking up crits, their BiS damage dealing weapon is a mid level drop from Gnomeregan of all places,

Again, I don't think the lack of a taunt is THAT big of a deal. IF your raid wipes to ONE tank losing aggro then I would find another raid.

[Kithelle]

I love how the instant answer from the classic pros is always "Naaaaaah paladins don't have taunt"
(see first 2 pages)

You guys realize 6 out of 8 bosses in BWL are taunt immune, right?

lol

Yeah, because I'm sure guilds want to gear up a main tank that they can't even use in every fight

Warrior tanks are viable in every fight, sorry you and the OP hate the fact but that doesn't make it any less true

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Again, I don't think the lack of a taunt is THAT big of a deal. IF your raid wipes to ONE tank losing aggro then I would find another raid.

All it takes is one bad uncontrolled AoE attack to take out a chunk of the raid...you do realize that?

[Coldfrostzero]

Paladins have too many problems to be considered as tanks:

1. Lack of taunt - this one's a real dealbreaker because even if an encounter doesn't need you to rotate tanks, the moment you lose aggro to a damage dealer, your raid is going to wipe.
2. Shitty threat generation. Their damage is pitifully low and Righteous Fury does not make up for this.
3. They're gimped by really stupid talents like Redoubt and Reckoning, which proc when you are the victim of a critical strike. Hitting the Defense cap in order to become crit immune is a required aspect of raid tanking. This one particularly neuters their ability to hit the Avoidance cap, since they won't be getting a 30% increased block chance at all if they don't receive a crit.
4. Paladin specific gear is optimised for healing, driving the emphasis that they're a healing class first and foremost.

Even if Greater Blessing of Kings spamming still worked, which the consensus of this thread suggests it doesn't, that's still just one of four crippling weaknesses alleviated.

Feral druids may also lack in itemization, crit immunity and avoidance, but unlike Protection Paladins, they have strengths which offset these weaknesses to a significant enough degree that raids may consider them. They deal more damage and threat than Naxx geared Warriors despite their (lack of) damage scaling from gear, they have a much higher health and armour pool which is great for soaking up crits, their BiS damage dealing weapon is a mid level drop from Gnomeregan of all places,

Read the thread. I will again address this, but you're looking at each thing separate and not as a whole.

1. Taunt doesn't matter on the fights we are talking about. If you have so much threat that no one will ever come close, this is a moot point.
2. GBoK spam is the entire point of this thread and how it makes Paladin threat incredible.
3. Fury Warriors need to get crit to Enrage and you cannot become crit immune through defense as a Warrior, Paladin, or Druid. You can only get to crush immunity. Crit immunity in Classic comes from getting a dodge/parry or a block. Paladins and Warriors (wearing a shield) will not be crit as long as they partially block the damage. Paladins get 30% from Holy Shield and Redoubt adds another 30% making them more likely to be back-to-back crit immune.
4. This is also not true. Tier 2 and 2.5, while it lacks defense (which in the scheme of things doesn't particularly matter) it has a lot of other stats like Spell Damage instead of straight Healing. Tier 1 is Healing, but has Str on the gear, while tier 3 is only Int and Healing. With a Paladin, you could basically have all Plate gear since the only thing that really matters is spamming GBoK for threat. Warriors need Leather and Mail in certain spots, which lowers their total Armor.

The paladin woulda spammed GBOK while running thus generating threat and never losing aggro in the first place.

Personally, the issue here is that while the Paladin IS generating threat, he's not doing any damage. Note that any threat generated that surpasses what the dps are producing is WASTED threat. While this almost never comes into play since more damage tends to equal more threat gen, It would in this case. Thus, as long as a Warrior can hold aggro and the DPS don't have to throttle themselves, they can spend extra resources towards dealing damage.

Also, can you dodge/block/parry while casting

Paladin not doing much damage isn't really a problem. Once you have a significant lead on threat, I would imagine you can assume a normal rotation of Judgement and whatever. Not to mention you'll still have an auto-swing+seal happening in between casts if you're smart and use a swing timer addon.

Instant casts don't follow the dodge/block/parry rule. You aren't hard casting at all.

[Segus1992]

Read the thread. I will again address this, but you're looking at each thing separate and not as a whole.

1. Taunt doesn't matter on the fights we are talking about. If you have so much threat that no one will ever come close, this is a moot point.
2. GBoK spam is the entire point of this thread and how it makes Paladin threat incredible.
3. Fury Warriors need to get crit to Enrage and you cannot become crit immune through defense as a Warrior, Paladin, or Druid. You can only get to crush immunity. Crit immunity in Classic comes from getting a dodge/parry or a block. Paladins and Warriors (wearing a shield) will not be crit as long as they partially block the damage. Paladins get 30% from Holy Shield and Redoubt adds another 30% making them more likely to be back-to-back crit immune.
4. This is also not true. Tier 2 and 2.5, while it lacks defense (which in the scheme of things doesn't particularly matter) it has a lot of other stats like Spell Damage instead of straight Healing. Tier 1 is Healing, but has Str on the gear, while tier 3 is only Int and Healing. With a Paladin, you could basically have all Plate gear since the only thing that really matters is spamming GBoK for threat. Warriors need Leather and Mail in certain spots, which lowers their total Armor.



Paladin not doing much damage isn't really a problem. Once you have a significant lead on threat, I would imagine you can assume a normal rotation of Judgement and whatever. Not to mention you'll still have an auto-swing+seal happening in between casts if you're smart and use a swing timer addon.

Instant casts don't follow the dodge/block/parry rule. You aren't hard casting at all.

3. This is the reverse of the truth, Fury/Prot Warriors avoid Defense in order to not reach critcap. Crush immunity is when EVERY attack is mitigated, which is not reachable in Vanilla outside of Shield Block or Redoubt + Holy Shield. You CAN crit through blocks.

As for the swing timer, just like with the dodge/block/parry being able to happen through instant casts, auto attacks can too.

[Highelf]

Yeah, because I'm sure guilds want to gear up a main tank that they can't even use in every fight

Warrior tanks are viable in every fight, sorry you and the OP hate the fact but that doesn't make it any less true

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All it takes is one bad uncontrolled AoE attack to take out a chunk of the raid...you do realize that?

Depends on the trash. And no I do not realize that. You must have different types of raids than most.

[Utrrabbit]

Paladins can literally main tank every single boss in classic except 1 or 2.

This meme that they can not is a joke at this point by the worst of the worst players.

[Machismo]

Paladins can literally main tank every single boss in classic except 1 or 2.

This meme that they can not is a joke at this point by the worst of the worst players.

Firemar, Flamegor, Ebonroc.

Ever one of those bosses requires tanks to taunt off each other.

That's three... in a single raid.

[Segus1992]

Paladins can literally main tank every single boss in classic except 1 or 2.

This meme that they can not is a joke at this point by the worst of the worst players.

This is a pretty ridiculous thing to claim. I also assume you aren't talking about tanking with GBoK spam, in which case we're back to the "possible, but worse" territory, which few in this thread are interested in.

[communicate]

Providing inaccurate or outdated information doesn't answer my question. I asked, given the new information about how Paladin threat works, their ability to maintain mitigation while being able to create insane amounts of threat, should Paladins be reconsidered?

We all know they can't taunt. Not every fight needs a taunt.

Im just gonna stop you right there, unfortunately. None of this is "new information" and its still "bad". A paladin is going to have to be the main tank to maintain mitigation. They dont do anything without getting hit. This is not true with warriors. Maintaining 2nd and 3rd threat is easy even for horde warriors.

Speaking of faction (which we shouldnt because this is a paladin thread) our problem is thinking threat matters on Alliance side anyway. What tank will ever have threat problems with paladins to buff salvation? Its in your kit, you should know this. Now lets talk threat generation, and more importantly (way more importantly) damage. This is where most people can see nail in the coffin. A paladin spamming greater blessing of kings aint doing ANY of it. And on a fight that needs taunts (3/8) youre now useless. You cant dps, and you cant maintain threat. Firemaw sounds impossible, Ebonroc assuredly is. Considering a warrior, bear or paladin shouldn't ever have threat issues on alliance with salvation, who would you rather bring? Mitigation is/was never an issue.

Its like this: are you even "tanking" or being a paladin, having fun or really doing anything if youre sitting there spamming greater blessings? Also, wont this eventually have to stop? Whats the longest you can spam before running out of mana? Also, where are you putting all these symbols of kings? Are you spamming greater blessing on trash too? In consumes and reagents youre spending how much a raid?

[Coldfrostzero]

3. This is the reverse of the truth, Fury/Prot Warriors avoid Defense in order to not reach critcap. Crush immunity is when EVERY attack is mitigated, which is not reachable in Vanilla outside of Shield Block or Redoubt + Holy Shield. You CAN crit through blocks.

As for the swing timer, just like with the dodge/block/parry being able to happen through instant casts, auto attacks can too.

Crushing blows are a rolled chance on the hit table just like everything else. https://vanilla-wow.fandom.com/wiki/Crushing_blow

The warrior ability Shield Block increases block rate by 75%, removing crushing blows from the miss/dodge/parry/block/crit/crushing-blow table that occurs when an opponent attacks, and making the warrior more or less "immune" to both crushing blows and critical hits in a PvE environment. This is because an attack that is blocked (as with a shield) cannot be a crushing blow or a critical hit -- the three are mutually-exclusive attack results. A warrior may be susceptible to crushing blows if they are hit 3 times in 5 seconds, as the Shield Block ability has 2 charges. A mob with an attack speed of 2.0 or faster can therefore crush a warrior if he fails to dodge/parry/miss 3 attacks in a row.

Im just gonna stop you right there, unfortunately. None of this is "new information" and its still "bad". A paladin is going to have to be the main tank to maintain mitigation. They dont do anything without getting hit. This is not true with warriors. Maintaining 2nd and 3rd threat is easy even for horde warriors.

Speaking of faction (which we shouldnt because this is a paladin thread) our problem is thinking threat matters on Alliance side anyway. What tank will ever have threat problems with paladins to buff salvation? Its in your kit, you should know this. Now lets talk threat generation, and more importantly (way more importantly) damage. This is where most people can see nail in the coffin. A paladin spamming greater blessing of kings aint doing ANY of it. And on a fight that needs taunts (3/8) youre now useless. You cant dps, and you cant maintain threat. Firemaw sounds impossible, Ebonroc assuredly is. Considering a warrior, bear or paladin shouldn't ever have threat issues on alliance with salvation, who would you rather bring? Mitigation is/was never an issue.

Its like this: are you even "tanking" or being a paladin, having fun or really doing anything if youre sitting there spamming greater blessings? Also, wont this eventually have to stop? Whats the longest you can spam before running out of mana? Also, where are you putting all these symbols of kings? Are you spamming greater blessing on trash too? In consumes and reagents youre spending how much a raid?

I've addressed and talked this to death. Read the thread.

[collax]

Firemar, Flamegor, Ebonroc.

Ever one of those bosses requires tanks to taunt off each other.

That's three... in a single raid.

Firemaw, if you maintank you don't need a taunt as long as you have fire resist cap (and paladin can divine shield for a sec to reset stacks if bad rng)
Flamegor, same thing if the pal maintank he don't need to taunt as the boss will come back to him after the wing buffet on the offtank that taunted.
Ebonroc, not really an issue, you will catch the boss aggro back with the GBOK spam (just a little harder to control when than with a taunt).

[arkanon]

Im just gonna stop you right there, unfortunately. None of this is "new information" and its still "bad". A paladin is going to have to be the main tank to maintain mitigation. They dont do anything without getting hit. This is not true with warriors. Maintaining 2nd and 3rd threat is easy even for horde warriors.

Speaking of faction (which we shouldnt because this is a paladin thread) our problem is thinking threat matters on Alliance side anyway. What tank will ever have threat problems with paladins to buff salvation? Its in your kit, you should know this. Now lets talk threat generation, and more importantly (way more importantly) damage. This is where most people can see nail in the coffin. A paladin spamming greater blessing of kings aint doing ANY of it. And on a fight that needs taunts (3/8) youre now useless. You cant dps, and you cant maintain threat. Firemaw sounds impossible, Ebonroc assuredly is. Considering a warrior, bear or paladin shouldn't ever have threat issues on alliance with salvation, who would you rather bring? Mitigation is/was never an issue.

Its like this: are you even "tanking" or being a paladin, having fun or really doing anything if youre sitting there spamming greater blessings? Also, wont this eventually have to stop? Whats the longest you can spam before running out of mana? Also, where are you putting all these symbols of kings? Are you spamming greater blessing on trash too? In consumes and reagents youre spending how much a raid?

Unfortunately, OP has absolutely ZERO interest in discussing the topic, just disagreeing. Twisting and weaving her way through replies, cherry picking things to respond to while ignoring others.

The simple question remains - why try and solve a problem that does not exist? As i have said multiple times, if threat was a major factor in classic, with guilds struggling to down bosses because their warriors continually lose threat and for some reason were unable to simply gain it right back, then there would be a reason to be discussing alternatives. OP is trying to convince us that a hexagonal wheel would be a great alternative to a standard one, simple because its not a square.

OP is basically saying "its not as bad as everyone is saying" while ignoring the fact a better alternative already exists.

[Segus1992]

Unfortunately, OP has absolutely ZERO interest in discussing the topic, just disagreeing. Twisting and weaving her way through replies, cherry picking things to respond to while ignoring others.

The simple question remains - why try and solve a problem that does not exist? As i have said multiple times, if threat was a major factor in classic, with guilds struggling to down bosses because their warriors continually lose threat and for some reason were unable to simply gain it right back, then there would be a reason to be discussing alternatives. OP is trying to convince us that a hexagonal wheel would be a great alternative to a standard one, simple because its not a square.

OP is basically saying "its not as bad as everyone is saying" while ignoring the fact a better alternative already exists.

If this is what you've gotten from this thread, the one not willing to discuss is you.

Threat is very important, and not out of a "manage to kill the boss" perspective, because nobody outside of very naive people think any boss in Classic is going to require theorycrafting to kill. People want to kill shit fast. More threat = higher potential DPS.

OP is saying "what if we use this obsidian scalpel for surgery rather than steel, despite being more expensive and much harder to use, since it's much sharper?" - the question is if the increased sharpness is needed enough to deal with the cost and difficulty.

[Machismo]

Firemaw, if you maintank you don't need a taunt as long as you have fire resist cap (and paladin can divine shield for a sec to reset stacks if bad rng)
Flamegor, same thing if the pal maintank he don't need to taunt as the boss will come back to him after the wing buffet on the offtank that taunted.
Ebonroc, not really an issue, you will catch the boss aggro back with the GBOK spam (just a little harder to control when than with a taunt).

They all have wing buffet, and that knocks them down the threat table. This makes those three fights utterly ridiculous with no taunt. The pally won't be able to keep all the stacks off on Firemaw, they will stack up, and he will eventually die. That's not even counting the wing buffet.

For Ebonroc, the shadow debuff comes so damned often, that they will need to taunt back and forth... and that's also not counting the wing buffet.

[Coldfrostzero]

If this is what you've gotten from this thread, the one not willing to discuss is you.

Threat is very important, and not out of a "manage to kill the boss" perspective, because nobody outside of very naive people think any boss in Classic is going to require theorycrafting to kill. People want to kill shit fast. More threat = higher potential DPS.

OP is saying "what if we use this obsidian scalpel for surgery rather than steel, despite being more expensive and much harder to use, since it's much sharper?" - the question is if the increased sharpness is needed enough to deal with the cost and difficulty.

At this point, he is just harassing me. Constantly saying I'm a female (sexist remark?) and trying to derail the thread. I'm assuming he has never once tanked anything in this game and has no real understanding of tanking mechanics.

No amount of evidence, technical discussion, or real conversation that relates to reality will sway him.

They all have wing buffet, and that knocks them down the threat table. This makes those three fights utterly ridiculous with no taunt. The pally won't be able to keep all the stacks off on Firemaw, they will stack up, and he will eventually die. That's not even counting the wing buffet.

For Ebonroc, the shadow debuff comes so damned often, that they will need to taunt back and forth... and that's also not counting the wing buffet.

Guild did Ebonroc with me taunting for Wing Buffet and the MT taking every shadow debuff. The fight is so short it literally doesn't matter. Wing Buffet also doesn't erase threat, it lowers it (Onyxia it's about 4k threat roughly). Arguably, if a prot paladin had a high enough threat ceiling, and people were using their threat reduction and watching their threat, a paladin could probably solo tank it.

Firemaw you can resist his stacks with enough FR, just like Golemagg. If you resist the debuff enough times in a row, your stacks will reset. Again, playing the threat game with Wing Buffet, you could solo tank it.

[Machismo]

At this point, he is just harassing me. Constantly saying I'm a female (sexist remark?) and trying to derail the thread. I'm assuming he has never once tanked anything in this game and has no real understanding of tanking mechanics.

No amount of evidence, technical discussion, or real conversation that relates to reality will sway him.

You continued ignoring contrary opinions, points, and evidence. You choice to complain about every point brought up... and the list of negatives about pally tanks is still there.

Let's see that pally in Lawbringer's do it better than the warrior in Might. You forget that there's a shortage of tank gear that's not specifically for warriors. You'll have a pally in blues, trying to tank AQ 40.

Or, show us what his tanking gear will be at every raid level...

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At this point, he is just harassing me. Constantly saying I'm a female (sexist remark?) and trying to derail the thread. I'm assuming he has never once tanked anything in this game and has no real understanding of tanking mechanics.

No amount of evidence, technical discussion, or real conversation that relates to reality will sway him.



Guild did Ebonroc with me taunting for Wing Buffet and the MT taking every shadow debuff. The fight is so short it literally doesn't matter. Wing Buffet also doesn't erase threat, it lowers it (Onyxia it's about 4k threat roughly). Arguably, if a prot paladin had a high enough threat ceiling, and people were using their threat reduction and watching their threat, a paladin could probably solo tank it.

Firemaw you can resist his stacks with enough FR, just like Golemagg. If you resist the debuff enough times in a row, your stacks will reset. Again, playing the threat game with Wing Buffet, you could solo tank it.

So.... taunting.... got it.

The rest is wishing and hoping for RNG.

Your new argument is that if people just stopped doing damage, then the pally would be fine. But, the ENTIRE justification is that the pally pushes so much threat, that they don't need to stop.

See the disconnect?