Did the blood elves oppose burning Teldrassil?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

People get hung up over the word genocide as if that makes all the difference.

If you look into it, genocide depends on intent. Did Sylvanas want to kill Night Elves because they were Night Elves? Or did they "just happen" to be Night Elves?

On that hinges the difference to between mass murder and genocide. But was does it matter? Is mass murder of thousands any better than genocide of thousands?

As much as some people want to twist it the night elfs were targets due to there race/nation not just the fact that they were alliance. The whole point of the war of thorns is to split the alliance down race/national lines by making one side want one thing and the other disagreeing. When the tree burns it just goes from holding a race/nation hostage to wiping it out Ie genocide.


Trying to split hairs over the word is just silly when the actual lore both uses it and points out why it targets that nation/race between the two short story’s.

[Ardenaso]

People get hung up over the word genocide as if that makes all the difference.

If you look into it, genocide depends on intent. Did Sylvanas want to kill Night Elves because they were Night Elves? Or did they "just happen" to be Night Elves?

On that hinges the difference to between mass murder and genocide. But was does it matter? Is mass murder of thousands any better than genocide of thousands?

I wouldn't say she "wanted to kill" them; she just had a knee jerk tantrum reaction when Delaryn roasted her before dying

[Mehrunes]

As much as some people want to twist it the night elfs were targets due to there race/nation not just the fact that they were alliance. The whole point of the war of thorns is to split the alliance down race/national lines by making one side want one thing and the other disagreeing. When the tree burns it just goes from holding a race/nation hostage to wiping it out Ie genocide.


Trying to split hairs over the word is just silly when the actual lore both uses it and points out why it targets that nation/race between the two short story’s.

The quote you used to form this position not say what you want it to say. The thing it actually says is precisely that the war was constructed to achieve specific political results against the Alliance. Your position doesn't even make linguistic sense. Just because the word "nation" is used among the desired effects doesn't mean their nationality was the reason for the attack. In other words, just because they expected that Night Elves would react in a specific way - in context of Alliance politics no less - long after the attack doesn't mean they were attacked because their race irked Sylvanas and Saurfang to the point that it was a deciding factor in the attack itself.

There's very simple thought exercise to show that. I.e. try to answer whether the Night Elves would have been attacked by the Horde were they not an Alliance member. You somehow want to pretend that they would be while at the same time presenting the argument as to why that would not be the case. Because were they not Alliance attacking them wouldn't make the Alliance crumble. The racial bit is even weaker as there are various Night Elves unaffiliated with the Alliance or even Darnassus. They were weirdly enough not attacked. Which also loops back to how these Night Elves were attacked because they were Alliance.

Furthermore, that quote you used to build your position was Saurfang's discussion with Sylvanas about the war as a whole before it even started. And genocide, like all crimes, is judged as its own separate action. So the decision for the war isn't relevant there. The decision for the burning is what's relevant and that is covered in a much later discussion between the two. I'll quote it again:

“They will come for us now. All of them!” he said.

“I know.” She was calm, as though nothing were wrong. “They will attack the Undercity in retaliation. You will need to plan our defenses. Begin evacuating my people.”

He struggled to form words. Finally, pure hatred made him spit out a condemnation. “You have damned the Horde for a thousand generations. All of us. And for what? For what?”

Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back.

When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.”

He wanted to kill her. He wanted to declare mak’gora and spill her blood in front of Horde and Alliance alike.

But she was right.

A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it.

And, as evident from the actually relevant discussion, the decision to burn the tree was (also) to achieve a political result against the Alliance as a whole. To top it off, in that discussion the words nationality and race aren't mentioned so you don't even have a platform for your "see, the word nation has been used (regardless of the context)" argument.

EDIT: To drive the point about why your line of reasoning here is incorrect fully home, let's try another thought experiment. Let's imagine a scenario in which at the end of the Gathering Anduin managed to keep the defecting Forsaken safe, holed them up in Stromgarde and provided them protection by extending the Alliance's wings over them. And that this act of defiance would then inspire a hefty part of the Forsaken back home to rise against Sylvanas in an effort to dethrone her in favor of Calia who would then join the original defectors in Stromgarde.

Which would then become Sylvanas' target instead of the Night Elven lands. Everything else stays the same. So Sylvanas' motivation would still be making Alliance ineffective by putting its member nations in a deadlock of conflict of interests. And that things wouldn't go according to plan and Sylvanas eventually ordered Stromgarde to be torched. Would that mean Sylvanas killed the Forsaken in Stromgarde over their nationality and race (and/or ethnicity and/or religion)? By your line of reasoning, the tangential remark about nations when making the decision for war (and as already mentioned only that one, not for the decision to burn the city later on) the answer should be yes.

But then you'd have to think that this group of people would share race, nationality, ethnicity and religion with the rest of the Forsaken. Who, weirdly enough, would be among the ones doing the attacking and burning here. So, perhaps, the attack would be solely because of them being an Alliance protectorate, even if the word "nation" is tangentially mentioned among the desired effects of the war? Food for thought.

EDIT 2: Pinging @sillag so that they don't have to make threads that get instantly closed so they can "sneakily" insult other people about how they are browsing Stormfront just because unlike them they use words properly, which they have to support with making things up how "sylvanas's own thoughts in the books let us know that she was attempting to destroy the night elves as a nation".

People get hung up over the word genocide as if that makes all the difference.

If you look into it, genocide depends on intent. Did Sylvanas want to kill Night Elves because they were Night Elves? Or did they "just happen" to be Night Elves?

On that hinges the difference to between mass murder and genocide. But was does it matter? Is mass murder of thousands any better than genocide of thousands?

Apparently yes. Also, why are you using words properly? We don't do that here.

[Highelf]

Does it matter? It'll never be addressed.

Some Blood Elves were fine with it (Lorash) because of what the Night Elves did to them. Others probably weren't.

LOL the NE spied on us 100 years ago! Slaughter them all!

The burning of teldrassil and everything that followed it is the reason I haven't touched retail in months and just stick with Classic. It was so poorly written with so many things not addressed and the horde, once again, showing their victim card and scapegoat hadouken.

And to answer the OP question. No, the BE's did not oppose it. No one in the horde did, because the horde is full of weak willed races. I just picture them all with the orc peon voiceovers. "I can do that", "be happy to", "something need doing?", "okie dokie"

[Nathasil]

Ever since "Saurfang the Regretful" put up a moral equation of Teldrassil and fucking Dazar'alor i am convinced Blizzard themselves believe the factions totally suffered equally from this "war" and are now even.

Tyrande got her vengeance.

It makes sense for them to see it this way, as the entire war was not a thought through story at all and large parts of it seemed to have been spontaneously made up by an intern on his toilet break. Basically, the whole Teldrassil event was only meant to sell the box to Horde players. It served its purpose. There is no reason for Blizzard to go back to it anymore.

As there are no Alliance players left, there is no financial gain in any kind of positive story development for them. The only reason to give the Nelfs a new capital would be for the Horde to have a new genocide target in 10.0. Maybe that reason is strong enough for Blizzard. We will see.

[gurutikka]

Yes I think deep inside the blood elves did feel terrible about seeing the tree burn because you have to realize that blood elves are descendants of night elves and thus they know the importance of nature and the world tree since blood elves also are very nature affiliated just like their ancestors so i feel that even if a single tree or large forest were to be burnt down, they wouldn't like it, sure they wouldn't say anything but i think deep inside they won't like that. Preservation of wildlife, nature, trees, etc, should be part of their heritage and beliefs as well and not just night elves, I think all elves would be offended by what happened in Teldarassil.

It's basically like if the Alliance were to burn down the entire forest and trees, kill all wildlife in and around Quel'thalas, do you think Night Elves would like that? Hell no. I think regardless of what faction you are on, ALL elves have a sense of unity when it comes to matters relating to forests, trees, animals, preservation of the natural world and would unify against anything that threatens that.

[Grazrug]

Why are you nitpicking on the Sin'dorei here and not6ahy other random horde race? They don't need to oppose it since they cut all the ties to the alliance by themselves years ago. It wouldn't matter.

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Yes I think deep inside the blood elves did feel terrible about seeing the tree burn because you have to realize that blood elves are descendants of night elves and thus they know the importance of nature and the world tree since blood elves also are very nature affiliated just like their ancestors so i feel that even if a single tree or large forest were to be burnt down, they wouldn't like it, sure they wouldn't say anything but i think deep inside they won't like that. Preservation of wildlife, nature, trees, etc, should be part of their heritage and beliefs as well and not just night elves, I think all elves would be offended by what happened in Teldarassil.

It's basically like if the Alliance were to burn down the entire forest and trees, kill all wildlife in and around Quel'thalas, do you think Night Elves would like that? Hell no. I think regardless of what faction you are on, ALL elves have a sense of unity when it comes to matters relating to forests, trees, animals, preservation of the natural world and would unify against anything that threatens that.

Why? Their main thing magic. Not druidism. If you make a theory you need more backup for it.

[Aeula]

LOL the NE spied on us 100 years ago! Slaughter them all!

The burning of teldrassil and everything that followed it is the reason I haven't touched retail in months and just stick with Classic. It was so poorly written with so many things not addressed and the horde, once again, showing their victim card and scapegoat hadouken.

And to answer the OP question. No, the BE's did not oppose it. No one in the horde did, because the horde is full of weak willed races. I just picture them all with the orc peon voiceovers. "I can do that", "be happy to", "something need doing?", "okie dokie"

It wasn’t 100 years ago, it was literally in the starting zone and involved sabotage and attacks, not just spying.

7000 hears ago the night elves exiled the highborne that would become the blood elves, Lorash and his parents were amongst that group (With his parents dying).

Nobody new the tree was going to get burnt until it was already aflame.

[Mehrunes]

It wasn’t 100 years ago, it was literally in the starting zone and involved sabotage and attacks, not just spying.

And an outright invasion.

[Highelf]

It wasn’t 100 years ago, it was literally in the starting zone and involved sabotage and attacks, not just spying.

7000 hears ago the night elves exiled the highborne that would become the blood elves, Lorash and his parents were amongst that group (With his parents dying).

Nobody new the tree was going to get burnt until it was already aflame.

That was sarcasm my friend. But I always love how horde fanbois justify genocide: well they spied on us, camp taurjo. You are the Ahole humans in Avatar, horde. Which is ironic.

Did the shamans who empowered it know? Did the other leaders know when trigger easy sylvanas screamed? Come on man you're acting like we don't have proof.

[Mehrunes]

That was sarcasm my friend. But I always love how horde fanbois justify genocide: well they spied on us, camp taurjo. You are the Ahole humans in Avatar, horde. Which is ironic.

What's even more lovable is the part when @Aeula flat out told you they didn't just spy to which your reply was simply repeating the claim about just spying and hoping no one noticed.

[Aeula]

That was sarcasm my friend. But I always love how horde fanbois justify genocide: well they spied on us, camp taurjo. You are the Ahole humans in Avatar, horde. Which is ironic.

Did the shamans who empowered it know? Did the other leaders know when trigger easy sylvanas screamed? Come on man you're acting like we don't have proof.

Okay man, keep weeping for your tree trolls and frothing at the mouth whenever a Horde 'fanboi' (I'm barely even a horde player anymore but whatever) calls out your bullshit. It wasn't just spying, that actively attacked people and no, I'm not just saying that because they're hostile, there's a quest where they try and ambush a blood elf mage and his guards. It was far more than simply 'spying'.

[Highelf]

What's even more lovable is the part when @Aeula flat out told you they didn't just spy to which your reply was simply repeating the claim about just spying and hoping no one noticed.

What's even more lovable is that it was taken care of internally and happened 40000000 years before commiting a genocide. That's why I didn't bring it up again because of the zero relevance. Hence the SECOND part of my post. Love you.

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Okay man, keep weeping for your tree trolls and frothing at the mouth whenever a Horde 'fanboi' (I'm barely even a horde player anymore but whatever) calls out your bullshit. It wasn't just spying, that actively attacked people and no, I'm not just saying that because they're hostile, there's a quest where they try and ambush a blood elf mage and his guards. It was far more than simply 'spying'.

Read my post right below. Wahhhhhh let's commit genocide...again, then justify it later while using our victim card and scapegoat deck(hmmm who do we have left that we can blame it ALL on?)

[Aeula]

What's even more lovable is that it was taken care of internally and happened 40000000 years before commiting a genocide. That's why I didn't bring it up again because of the zero relevance. Hence the SECOND part of my post. Love you.

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Read my post right below. Wahhhhhh let's commit genocide...again, then justify it later while using our victim card and scapegoat deck(hmmm who do we have left that we can blame it ALL on?)

All I’m doing is providing an explanation as to why some blood elves probably don’t care about roasted tree troll. And it happened 7 years ago. Which is very recent considering there was a blood elf who was alive and pissed about events 7000 years ago.

[MasterMirror]

"Fair treatment was never shown to my people. I'm just returning the favor."

[Specialka]

"Fair treatment was never shown to my people. I'm just returning the favor."

Hey, maybe if the Highborn/High Elves/Blood Elves had not been huge dicks in the past, a.k.a "we do not want to stop using Arcane, even after it did bring a world ending army to our world and it was nearly destroyed". Well, maybe, if they were not such danks, maybe they would have got a fairer treatment. Just saying.

[Mehrunes]

What's even more lovable is that it was taken care of internally and happened 40000000 years before commiting a genocide. That's why I didn't bring it up again because of the zero relevance. Hence the SECOND part of my post. Love you.

7 years, 40000000 years. What's the difference. And it wasn't taken care of internally. The Blood Elves needed Horde's help for that. Because the Night Elves invaded them while Quel'Thalas was one foot inside a grave. It's also heavily mentioned during their addition to the Horde being finalized.

Hey, maybe if the Highborn/High Elves/Blood Elves had not been huge dicks in the past, a.k.a "we do not want to stop using Arcane, even after it did bring a world ending army to our world and it was nearly destroyed". Well, maybe, if they were not such danks, maybe they would have got a fairer treatment. Just saying.

The same applies to Night Elves. Also, Quel'Thalas proved that the Highborne following Dath'remar were responsible about their usage of magic. Unlike the usage of Druidism from Malfurion's tree huggers, because their idiocy got such amazing results like awakening C'Thun or allowing the Old Gods to create the Emerald Nightmare. Which almost doomed the world like five times if not more.

[Highelf]

7 years, 40000000 years. What's the difference. And it wasn't taken care of internally. The Blood Elves needed Horde's help for that. Because the Night Elves invaded them while Quel'Thalas was one foot inside a grave. It's also heavily mentioned during their addition to the Horde being finalized.




The same applies to Night Elves. Also, Quel'Thalas proved that the Highborne following Dath'remar were responsible about their usage of magic. Unlike the usage of Druidism from Malfurion's tree huggers, because their idiocy got such amazing results like awakening C'Thun or allowing the Old Gods to create the Emerald Nightmare. Which almost doomed the world like five times if not more.

To answer your question, no, I won't lower my intelligence for that. I've said my peace and you, at least you're consistent, only focus on 2 words in a paragraph.

So according to you, accidentally awakening something that was already there is the same as knowingly contacting and trying to bring sargearas and the burning legion to azeroth? Also, the trolls awakened him first.

The Titans created the Emerald Dream, of which, was used to thwart Aszhara and the....you guessed it, the highbourne.

[J012D4N]

Read my post right below. Wahhhhhh let's commit genocide...again, then justify it later while using our victim card and scapegoat deck(hmmm who do we have left that we can blame it ALL on?)

Yep, that's actually on page 47 of the 'Kaldorei Empire playbook'. Chapter 4, 'Feign Victim'

"Conquer 70% of Azeroth, massacring another indigenous race (distant cousins actually) in the process of expansion, dominate for thousands of years, anoint a foxy queen (Oooo, AHHH), sit idly by while she almost destroys the world, blame all of our cousins (remember we're NOT AT FAULT) for blowing it up, exile them, invade & sabotage their new homeland after they're decimated by an external threat, complain when we're in open war with another faction & this happens to us, especially after our fake 'world tree' that was planted because we're vain & DESERVE IMMORTALITY BACK ... is torched. Feign victim COMPLETE"

[Highelf]

Yep, that's actually on page 47 of the 'Kaldorei Empire playbook'. Chapter 4, 'Feign Victim'

"Conquer 70% of Azeroth, massacring another indigenous race (distant cousins actually) in the process of expansion, dominate for thousands of years, anoint a foxy queen (Oooo, AHHH), sit idly by while she almost destroys the world, blame all of our cousins (remember we're NOT AT FAULT) for blowing it up, exile them, invade & sabotage their new homeland after they're decimated by an external threat, complain when we're in open war with another faction & this happens to us, especially after our fake 'world tree' that was planted because we're vain & DESERVE IMMORTALITY BACK ... is torched. Feign victim COMPLETE"

You mean how the blood elves built on troll lands then proceeded to slaughter them for being mad their ancient site was built on? IF i'm not mistaken these are the same highborne that KNOWINGLY contacted saraeras and the burning legion with Aszhara? By sit idly by, do you mean lead the charge to stop her from allowing the burning legion to enter and destroy azeroth?...Twice? What else ya got? This is fun.