if you have to call one of these characters, a mary sue, which one would it be??

[Vampyrr]

Jaina got away with everything she did, she literally did a purge and nothing from horde, heck belfs welcome her with open arms, and she is the 3rd worst enemy to them after Arthas and Garithos in their history
If that part alone doesn't make her mary sue, nothing will
But of course Sylvanas is miles ahead of Jaina, or even Mary Sue herself, at this rate we will ask if Mary Sue is Sylvanas enough or not

Being evil or attacking a race doesnt make someone a Mary Sue. Her actions were BS but not the powers

[Alvito]

Neither, Jaina was BfA's best written character and Sylvanas is now officially a villain.

You are smoking drano laced crack if you think Jaina is not only well written but the best of BfA.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

She walked around the city during the questline literally killing blood elf npcs that were running in fear. Also, it eventually ended because the Council stepped in and told her to knock it the fuck off.

while the questline might show that its non canon according to blizzard so she only killed people resisting.

[gurutikka]

she has been one of the most powerful mages to exist, it's common knowledge, they didn't give her a power boost, she was always powerful, sylvanas on the other hand...

[Aresk]

- Saurfang immediately surrendered at Lordaeron after a chat, with no fighting, let alone him incapacitating anyone;

When was this surrender? If you're talking about in the courtyard outside the throne room, he does fight. He's outnumbered and subdued. You can play the battle on an Alliance character to experience the fight. If you're talking about some other time, I'm sorry for misunderstanding you.

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- Khadgar, Medhiv both are alive and active, Medhiv is certainly more powerful, and Khadgar is debatable but he's more experienced and was going to be the next guardian so, my money is on him

Medivh apparently left his humanity behind long ago, during the events of WC3, so more than likely he stopped being human after his initial death in WC1. He also hasn't done anything beyond have prophetic sight and turn into a raven (which is from Atiesh anyway) since he was killed, unless I'm forgetting something, so I find it hard to gauge his power anymore.

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She walked around the city during the questline literally killing blood elf npcs that were running in fear. Also, it eventually ended because the Council stepped in and told her to knock it the fuck off.

When did the Council tell her to "knock it the fuck off"? I don't recall them ever speaking against her actions until the following expansion when Khadgar ignored the "stop working with the Horde" rule that seemed to have been put in place for the Kirin Tor.

[Zaelsino]

I wouldn't really call Sylvanas a Sue. Sure, she's a terrible person who always seems to get her way, but the telltale sign (for me at least, since no one can agree on what this term even means) is when a character like that receives constant, unjustified praise and adoration from their peers in spite of it all; she's never really had that. She had a strong critic in Saurfang right from the start, and while the rest of the Horde were admittedly portrayed as her gormless henchmen until very late in the day, they all disavowed and turned against her too. Eventually.

I don't think Jaina fits the bill either, although she has kind of the opposite problem. She rarely gets what she wants and every decision she makes seems to backfire horribly on her, but every morally ambiguous thing she does is downplayed and swept under the rug by the characters with whom she interacts and even the narrative itself. It took seven years for someone to bring up that time she instigated a bloody purge, and we only got that much because people complained their asses off.

[TheRevenantHero]

while the questline might show that its non canon according to blizzard so she only killed people resisting.

....You can't say that it's only non canon according to Blizzard to defend yourself. They are the authority on it.

[Jastall]

Mary Sue is becoming the new most over used and misused word to date when it comes to media. I am pretty sure that the people using this havent even done the work needed to understand what Mary Sue is, what it derived from and what it attains into context... I am sure I'll get the same three answers, She's too powerful, she's the writers pet, and she is cliche... If you think that its just about that then you know nothing.

Neither Jaina or Sylvanas are Mary Sue's, in no way shape of form. Now if you want to say they are badly written thats another debate that can have legs to stand on, but that doesn't belong in the same discussion as something as this.

Yeah, badly written and/or clearly overpowered and/or inconsistently powered does not a Mary Sue make by its lonesome. Otherwise fucking Doomguy would be a Mary Sue, given that he's incredibly powerful and feared by all in-universe, but he's more along the line of a power fantasy. Mary Sue comes from a character having only qualities and everyone in-story, save the vilest villains, fawning over them repeatedly while they are better than everyone at everything and literally all possible events go their way. A Mary Sue, above all, is wish fulfillment incarnate.

Neither of these characters fit these categories. One could argue Sylvanas is the fulfillment of someone's wish to be a villain that can do whatever they want with no consequences, but even then I now find that debatable, to me she's more an infuriating plot device than a character now. Jaina is overpowered and definitely has some Sue-ish traits, but they are quite downplayed compared to the biggest examples such as Rhonin or Cata!Thrall.

[Rozz]

Neither.

Both have lost, failed, died/nearly died, gained and lost love, and are far from being the best at what they even do. There are sill better magic users than Jaina and Sylvanas is neither the world's best ranger or the most powerful death figure on Azeroth. Even when they 'asspull' powers from the nether, it is after years of training, background deals, and experience.

Their writing can be cheesy, but they are far from Mary Sues to me. I think other human characters are worse offenders, especially when they start robbing traits from other races or have mastery over something in a month.

[Kyphael]

You are smoking drano laced crack if you think Jaina is not only well written but the best of BfA.

Who was better written in BfA?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

....You can't say that it's only non canon according to Blizzard to defend yourself. They are the authority on it.

Yes they are the authority on it and as such they have said her killing blood elfs who aren’t resisting was a bug that isn’t meant to happen.

[DemonHunter18]

Sylvanas is by far the more annoying one, and the more inconsistently written one. Struggling to block saurfang's shots, getting sliced in the face, only to then turn around and act like they're nothing while you wail on him is fucking garbage. Somehow being able to freely wade into the frozen throne ALONE without getting swarmed by the scourge and then having a nice cordial fight 1v1 with Arthas2.0 while the rest of his minions stand there looking dumb is also incredibly stupid

don't forget her attacks couldn't do anything to one Infernal.

shit, I still have nightmares from that Shadowlands cinematic

[sam86]

Being evil or attacking a race doesnt make someone a Mary Sue. Her actions were BS but not the powers

it isn't attacking or power, Garrosh did that and even more
it is the fact how this action has zero effects on her reputation, alliance still love her even if she killed belf chance to return to alliance (which would been major blow to horde), and horde love her and she literally slaughtered them on sight ! (what the F*CK!?)

[Super Dickmann]

As a side note from Jaina's power level, neither she nor Sylvanas are Sues. The Sues of the game are WC3-era Thrall, Anduin and Rhonin under Knaak.

[Kumorii]

None of either. I don't think either is a mary sue is overpowered or without fault... sorry but that is a stupid poll.

Why is stuff like this which does nothing but to shit on characters without any base not banned/closed.
Seriously. No one runs around and calls Khadgar a mary sue or wrathion... it is always the female chars who get some weird hate for no real reason

Seems like you pay little attention then. Thrall and anduin often gets accused and get brought up constantly in discussions of mary sues.

[Hubbl3]

As a side note from Jaina's power level, neither she nor Sylvanas are Sues. The Sues of the game are WC3-era Thrall, Anduin and Rhonin under Knaak.

Was Thrall so OP in WC3? Currently replaying but he doesn't seem that OP in the game. I mean Cairne just stomped once and collapsed an entire canyon.

[Ardenaso]

Anduin isn't a mary sue, he clearly has failed in the past, doesn't know everything, isn't liked by everyone and isn't better at anyone else than anything really

Please I'm waiting for the very day Genn/Danath/Tyrande/Moira/Turalyon get tired of Anduin's Horde bootlicking and finally kick him out

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Was Thrall so OP in WC3? Currently replaying but he doesn't seem that OP in the game. I mean Cairne just stomped once and collapsed an entire canyon.

he hurted Archimonde, that's something

[Super Dickmann]

Was Thrall so OP in WC3? Currently replaying but he doesn't seem that OP in the game. I mean Cairne just stomped once and collapsed an entire canyon.

It's not about power level, but narrative role. Thrall is a Messiah figure who's effectively achieved his goal even before the game starts, where people like Arthas, Kael, Tyrande, Grom etc. have to change, Thrall begins and ends as an immaculate being. Everyone who meets him and isn't on his side soon after is either a literal demon or is a strawman who's family will betray them within two lines of dialogue like what happens with Daelin.

[Hubbl3]

It's not about power level, but narrative role. Thrall is a Messiah figure who's effectively achieved his goal even before the game starts, where people like Arthas, Kael, Tyrande, Grom etc. have to change, Thrall begins and ends as an immaculate being. Everyone who meets him and isn't on his side soon after is either a literal demon or is a strawman who's family will betray them within two lines of dialogue like what happens with Daelin.

Looking from that POV you are absolutely right.

[Soon-TM]

Also some of you guys/girls have to remember that a Mary Sue doesn't necessarily has to be "perfect". They may have flaws, but they are so inconsequential and/or have so little effect (if any) on the overall narrative that they might very well not exist. It's like saying someone is a bad chef when you are discussing basketball players.

And another very telling symptom of Mary Sue is that they are always shown to be right. Anyone opposing them, no matter their reasons, is depicted as being irrational, unreasonable or straight up evil. Villain Sue's are an exception in this regard though.