I don't think Sylvanas is really the bad villain you think she is

[Mace]

Because blizzard has given her an iron clad reason, to do what she did - to be revealed in Shadowlands. Something that you can relate to might have been necessary to possibly save or at least bring down the barriers between life and death.


IF you had the view of the after life Sylvanas had, with the urgency of the shadowlands problem - wouldn't you think entirely differently of the value of life and change your mind on whether to take it or not As a horde leader, would it not make sense if you needed more lives sent to the Maw, to rather take the lives of your enemies and thus drum up the war.


While this is never a good thing persay, do not the circumstances warrant a re-assessment of the justification of all this? What is life anyway? If passing into the shadowlands you just transition into another role? What does it mean to live this one here like that so briefly when eternity is where your main existence lies?

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Surely, then this life is only useful for determining what state you get in the next, and this life is where you get to choose. It's the old Christian argument on the afterlife. Where this life that you never chose to have, is given to you by God, however while you are here, you get to determine whether you spend eternity in heaven (and what degree or level or state you do so, doorkeeper or Elder etc) or in hell, tha talso has levels (the level is determined by your actions and choices in this life). Shadowlands is an alternate version of Christianity's message on after life.

The difference is that in wow, the afterlife seems more shades of hell rather than having any real heaven. But I reserve judgement until I actually see what the various covenants are.

[Varodoc]

We already know what her goal is, and we've known that since Before the Storm. She wants to "free everyone from the shackles of mortality", because she's grown to see Undeath as a blessing. At the same time, she believes it is foolish to cling to hope, to life, so she wants everyone to serve Death (like she said after her reunion with Alleria, like she said after Saurfang's death). That's why she allied with the Jailer, that's why she wants to shatter the cosmic balance (hence why she fought the Lich King and wants Bwonsamdi murdered, both of which want to uphold that balance), and that's why she wants to "set us all free" (i.e. kill everyone, "free everyone from the shackles of mortality").

She is a villain, and Blizzard's intentions with this character are obvious. There is nothing left to be revealed here, aside from how she ultimately loses.

[Soikona]

This seems like some serious mental gymnastics to justify mass murder...

[Kiivar86]

IF you had the view of the after life Sylvanas had, with the urgency of the shadowlands problem

You mean the problem that kicked off well after Sylvanas went to to the Shadowlands and allied with the Jailer?

She's also been more than happy to feed souls to the Maw to help empower the Jailer in the process.

[Maljinwo]

We should ask all the people who died at Teldrassil their opinion

[sam86]

she is a sh8t villain, they shitconned everything she did to make it a part of her 'grand plan' of f8cking everything it seems

[Thage]

Thanos wanted to save the universe from overpopulation and resource scarcity. Instead of snapping unlimited resources into being, he decided to obliterate half the universe, unaware or uncaring that trillions more would die as collateral damage. Sylvanas has been sending everyone who died in the Fourth War to hell and wiped out an entire city where the majority of the population were civilians guilty of nothing worse than maybe missing church once in a while. She knowingly threw the Horde into an absolute meat grinder and damned countless brave warriors to Hell for her own personal benefit, the Horde be damned.

Giving an evil psychopath an understandable motive doesn't make their actions justified or them any less evil or psychotic. Let's not pretend she's Adrian Veidt or something here.

[Nathanyel]

IF you had the view of the after life Sylvanas had, [...]

Having character depth/development, or even a comprehensible motivation, does not mean you're not evil. Today's villains aren't mustache-twirling evil-doers that do evil just to do evil anymore.

[TheFirstOnes]

Still killed thousands, if not millions.

[Nathanyel]

Let's not pretend she's Adrian Veidt or something here.

Even he is the clear villain of the movie version (haven't seen the series yet, sorry) and in the end everyone but Rorschach simply agreed that at this point, it would be better to go with his narrative and blame the bombings on Dr Manhattan, who wanted to leave Earth anyway, than to attempt to take Ozymandias to justice.

That doesn't mean they wouldn't have attempted to prevent the events, if given another chance.

[Kumorii]

This seems like some serious mental gymnastics to justify mass murder...

In a world where you can resurrect people and death isn't a permanent thing. Morality of mass murder will be vastly different compared to our world.

[MrLachyG]

Is she bad? yeah, definitely. a good person wouldn't burn down Teldrassil or start a war that cost the lives of thousands. the question is why she is doing it? we know she is working for the Jailer but there are still so many questions left unanswered

[Smeller]

Know of any other figure who committed genocide but wasn't bad?

[Justpassing]

Relevant:



But yeah personally I stopped looking for deeper meanings in WoW stories a while ago. If they paint her as a villain, she is.

[Wangming]

The problem is not her motivation. The problem is that she has been acting as a cheesy comic book villain. Compared to saaaay Emet-Selch her writing in BfA had been laughably bad.

By the way, depending on her end goal, her entire plan might have been unnecessary. Just saying.

[spalernTJ]

Guys, Hitler didn't do anything wrong. He had ironclad reasons to do what he did, he was nice to animals and he loved his country. He had his reasons, so he's actually kinda not fully evil you guys.

Stop trying to justify bad people with "They had a good reason" An evil deed is still evil, even if bathed in good intentions. (Not saying Hitler had good intentions. Hitler sucked.)

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The problem is not her motivation. The problem is that she has been acting as a cheesy comic book villain. Compared to saaaay Emet-Selch her writing in BfA had been laughably bad.

By the way, depending on her end goal, her entire plan might have been unnecessary. Just saying.

Emet-Selch is the best Villain, such a well written character.

[tankbug]

No matter what her motives are/were, she has committed terrible crimes against...well....everyone, basically. She's a villain, no matter what her role will be in the future.

[Mace]

This seems like some serious mental gymnastics to justify mass murder...

That is exactly what I feel her writers are doing. I feel she is another anti-hero, or at least been made into one, rather than the full hero shew as previously. This is similar to Illidan, except he was established as an anti-hero, turned villain, turned hero.

Yes, it is exactly this sort of mental gymanastics with murder that makes it quite worrying. No matter how much you like a character, if you're gonna write them to be a mass killer, don't make it okay or justifiable --- not in this world with people willing to flock to crazy ideals, especially ones that justify murder.

I strongly suspect this is where Sylvie is headed.

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You mean the problem that kicked off well after Sylvanas went to to the Shadowlands and allied with the Jailer?

She's also been more than happy to feed souls to the Maw to help empower the Jailer in the process.

Ah, but wanna bet the story reveal is going to show us that she has been in league with the Jailor since before WoT, and her mass killing in WoT was towards this "to be revealed" end?!

[Zuben]

You raise a fair point. If the evil within Shadowlands is indeed serious enough that she thought all the deaths were necessary, I could see her perspective as sound even if I don't agree with it. Sylvanas wouldn't seek alternatives if she sees a method that works.

She won't be vindicated for it, though, people are too angry, lore-characters and players alike. If there is no empathy in the decision then it's hard to feel positively about the intention. Compare to Arthas seeking to undeadify all life on Azeroth to take on the Legion.

The best way Sylvanas could go at this point is to Lelouch out, die an unsung hero. Emphasis on the unsung. All in all it looks like her battle is nearing its end.

[Wangming]

Emet-Selch is the best Villain, such a well written character.

I'm actually sad he is gone. But also glad that he didn't get the chance to overstay his welcome. I could probably make a seminar out of his reveal to the players. Hell he could be used to show how N'Zoth was a failure as a villain. Are there far greater threats than Emet-Selch? Fuck yeah there are. Is he still threatening? You bet. Did he have a decent plan? Well duh. He actually won. Compared to the parasyte with no character who got yeeted cause he didn't read the Evil Overlord list and got us into his inner sanctum.
As for Sylvanas. We can't judge her plan yet, but so far she just seems to be an impulsive mass murderer. It's a bit telling that in Emet's case even the heroes agree with his goals, but don't like his methods.