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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    How do you expect corporatism from happening without rules when it's happening within rules?
    I never said there cannot be rules. I simply want far less rules than the average person. The only actions that should be restricted, are those that cause harm to others. A company hiring an immigrant does not harm others.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    First since there was already a shortage why would they throw them away? second you do know the reason they get thrown away in recessions is because companies are going out of business right? third you think recessions are good for those workers?
    You dont seem to understand that construction work is very sensitive to the Business cycle.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_cycle

    In the past construction companies had a backlog of orders to help them through a depression so needed to have construction workers employed during a recession. Nowadays construction companies simply fill out every order because they can import a large amount of east block labourers . However then recession hits the bulk of the construction workers get fired and the east bloc workers simply return home . This of course is a very good thing for the construction companies and terrible for the workers . I dont know any construction worker that has a contract that last more then 2.5 years.

    Having a shortage in construction workers is a good thing!

  3. #143
    Titan I Push Buttons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Non right wing nut job citation please no candidate to my knowledge has called for open borders.
    Their own campaign websites?

    Sanders:

    Quote Originally Posted by A Welcoming and Safe America for All
    Put a moratorium on deportations...
    ...
    Virtually eliminating immigrant detention by requiring a “presumption of release” standard for determining detention, and ensuring that a past criminal conviction cannot be the sole deciding factor in detention...
    ...
    He will push Congress, immediately, to provide a legislative path to citizenship to bring 11 million people out of the shadows to make our communities safer, our economy stronger, and live up to the ideals of our nation...
    Warren:

    Quote Originally Posted by A Fair and Welcoming Immigration System
    Decriminalize migration and refocus enforcement on serious criminal activity...
    ...
    End unnecessary detention... As President, I’ll issue guidance ensuring that detention is only used where it is actually necessary because an individual poses a flight or safety risk.
    ...
    I’ll also take executive action to provide a measure of protection for those who are undocumented, while pursuing a legislative solution that provides a path to citizenship...
    Buttigieg:

    Quote Originally Posted by An Immigration Policy for a New Era
    We will take a humane approach to immigration enforcement, one that more effectively meets our public safety needs, uses detention sparingly, and provides due process and accountability...
    ...
    We will reduce barriers to naturalization and actively encourage citizenship. At the same time, 11 million undocumented people, including Dreamers, live among us—two thirds have been here more than a decade —but still have no chance to become citizens. We must and will create a path to citizenship for them...
    Once again, if you can come here without documentation, stay here without documentation, and eventually even become a citizen without documentation... That's an open border in all but name.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I never said there cannot be rules. I simply want far less rules than the average person. The only actions that should be restricted, are those that cause harm to others. A company hiring an immigrant does not harm others.
    And jumping from a cliff doesn't hurt others either but that is exactly what you are proposing . Your ideas are batshit insane

  5. #145
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I never said there cannot be rules. I simply want far less rules than the average person. The only actions that should be restricted, are those that cause harm to others. A company hiring an immigrant does not harm others.
    Great, now who decides what causes harm to others? Because going by the US track record, there need to die a good amount of thousands or tens of thousands of people before someone dares to cry foul. And now imagine there are fewer rules and more money involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    You dont seem to understand that construction work is very sensitive to the Business cycle.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_cycle

    In the past construction companies had a backlog of orders to help them through a depression so needed to have construction workers employed during a recession. Nowadays construction companies simply fill out every order because they can import a large amount of east block labourers . However then recession hits the bulk of the construction workers get fired and the east bloc workers simply return home . This of course is a very good thing for the construction companies and terrible for the workers . I dont know any construction worker that has a contract that last more then 2.5 years.

    Having a shortage in construction workers is a good thing!
    When the recession happened construction workers got fired because the housing market collapse and even with the backlog companies were going out of business. The reason we have a shortage of construction workers now is because of what happened during the recession those construction workers moved on and it's now difficult to replace them.

    I am not sure what drugs you are on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    Their own campaign websites?

    Sanders:



    Warren:



    Buttigieg:



    Once again, if you can come here without documentation, stay here without documentation, and eventually even become a citizen without documentation... That's an open border in all but name.
    So you cannot read it's called a path to citizenship look it up it's not new as for the detention maybe you want to tell Donald Trump that because catch and release is that in name only. We simply do not have a way to deport all the illegals in the country a path to the citizenship is an answer, I hate yet to see anything viable proposed on the other side as a solution.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    And jumping from a cliff doesn't hurt others either but that is exactly what you are proposing . Your ideas are batshit insane
    Supporting the free movement of labor and capital is batshit insane? Why shouldn't companies be able to hire whom they want?

    You are literally complaining that companies want to hire people, and finish more construction projects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Great, now who decides what causes harm to others? Because going by the US track record, there need to die a good amount of thousands or tens of thousands of people before someone dares to cry foul. And now imagine there are fewer rules and more money involved.
    Thanks for pointing out why government is so fucking terrible.

    Meanwhile, gay marriage was banned... nobody was harmed by such an action. Welcome to libertarianism.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    Once again, if you can come here without documentation, stay here without documentation, and eventually even become a citizen without documentation... That's an open border in all but name.

    Once again no it is not. Not unless you're a particularly Xenophobic person which is not atypical of right wing extremists. Shove the gas lighting open borders non-sense and just admit it you're far more interested in being punitive than reasonable of efficient when it comes to immigration policy.

    If not some sort of path to citizenship for say children who lived their entire lives in America and are becoming the very type of college educated person Republicans claim to want then what is your solution? Because based on the line you've drawn the only recourse is spending 100's of billions of mass deportations on millions of people in a system that is already backlogged which is an extremist position lest we have "open borders" as you've single handedly decided to redefine the term. Hell it'll probably cost more than that with Trump's zero tolerance policy meaning we'll have to detain millions while they go through their due process.
    Last edited by shimerra; 2020-02-21 at 02:53 PM.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
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  9. #149
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    proof that you aren't even reading what I am typing.

    People break laws so don't make laws? I don't see any flaw in this logic.

    You are not reading just ranting we have shortages in labor due to a number of reasons like one example I gave doctors and nurses.

    So again you don't need me just going to keep talking to yourself you basically sound like a college student who just found out about the military industrial complex or something /sigh
    First: No, its me pointing out how it is. Either cash is spent lobbying politicians to increase the labour supply, or its spent to compensate people.

    Second: I wonder if you'd apply that logic to a marijuana ban, or alcohol prohibition, or banning abortion. I mean I've heard we can't do those things because people will just get them anyway, but I guess we just don't need to consider the efficacy of a law. We are preening and signalling our virtue here. As I stated, the Law is a strange place to turn given how oligarchical the UK, US and EU are. That it essentially relies on Professional Managerial Class bureaucrats to act in the best interests of Proles (Which they have no reason to do unless you believe a college degree confers some sort of moral sensibility which for some reason failed to transfer to most of them). So you become dependent on the legal system and the hands of a separate social class to act in the best interests of socioeconomic inferiors and to not be bribed, corrupted, subverted especially by their fellow class members whom are also deft and understanding and using the levers of the courts and bureaucracy for their advantage?

    Labour Unions on the other hand are the workers themselves taking the power into their own hands and ensuring a better set of material conditions for themselves. Why you are allergic to this notion of proles working together in solidarity for their own advancement without being dependent on the largesse of another socioeconomic class which DOESN'T share their material interests is beyond me.

    Third: We don't have a shortage of doctors and nurses, we are unwilling to say pay doctors appropriately. Partially because doctors have to face constant import competition thus making the field less attractive and say in the US forcing more specialization to make more money and leading to less General Practitioner doctors since boat loads are brought in. Nurses likewise face the same pressures. Cut the constant boatloads of people and allow those in those fields to collectively bargain for a better deal and more people will take up the mantel of those jobs. I've told you this a before, you just like to ignore.

    Finally: Your lack of knowledge of how collective bargaining works is really on you. And surprising for someone presumably to the Left of Ronald Reagan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Minimum wage laws might have more to do with the wages than the supply of labour but just stick to your boogeyman of more people equal fewer wages because it's simpler maths, therefore, it's truer.
    Already covered it. But Wage Stagnation is an issue. Okay, so now to see any sort of pay increase the ever increasing masses of people must rely entirely on the political process and byzantine bureaucracy and law (Which most proles don't have degrees in law to really understand) nor have the free time to interface with the courts and bureaucracy to manipulate the process as well as say a Mike Bloomberg can. Rather than you know; wield power themselves and actually collectively bargain and organize for their own material needs.
    Last edited by Theodarzna; 2020-02-21 at 03:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    When the recession happened construction workers got fired because the housing market collapse and even with the backlog companies were going out of business. The reason we have a shortage of construction workers now is because of what happened during the recession those construction workers moved on and it's now difficult to replace them.
    If you want to believe that fine by me. Its not my task to educate you on the finer points of economy. But the article clearly demonstrates that reuding migration has a positive effect on the construction workers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Supporting the free movement of labor and capital is batshit insane? Why shouldn't companies be able to hire whom they want?

    You are literally complaining that companies want to hire people, and finish more construction projects.
    And you condemn the bulk of the population to abject poverty with your version of capitalism . These same people will get angry after a while and go French revolution on your ass. So yes it is batshit insane what you are doing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    Once again no it is not. Not unless you're a particularly Xenophobic person which is not atypical of right wing extremists. Shove the gas lighting open borders non-sense and just admit it you're far more interested in being punitive than reasonable of efficient when it comes to immigration policy.

    If not some sort of path to citizenship for say children who lived their entire lives in America and are becoming the very type of college educated person Republicans claim to want then what is your solution? Because based on the line you've drawn the only recourse is spending 100's of billions of mass deportations on millions of people in a system that is already backlogged which is an extremist position lest we have "open borders" as you've single handedly decided to redefine the term. Hell it'll probably cost more than that with Trump's zero tolerance policy meaning we'll have to detain millions while they go through their due process.
    So where do you draw the line?

  11. #151
    The Insane Daelak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    That is simply not true. We already seeing the positive effects of labour shortage in Britain.

    https://www.theconstructionindex.co....-salaries-up-9

    When you are difficult to replace your employers cannot make your live difficult otherwise you will just strike.
    This is not a positive. In fact, this will most certainly subject the UK to permanent levels of lower growth even recessions due to the inability to start construction projects, the precursor to economic expansion. The UK leaving the EU will only bring economic malaise to the UK, not prosperity.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There is a problem, but I know just banning guns will fix the problem.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    If you want to believe that fine by me. Its not my task to educate you on the finer points of economy. But the article clearly demonstrates that reuding migration has a positive effect on the construction workers.
    First it's what happened you are literally denying reality second the article clearly stated that the increase in wages hasn't helped the shortage. Where do you think the cost of those raises go? You do realize that the UK has a housing problem right? You clearly do not understand the basics of a labor market, economy or real life for that matter.

    Let me give you another example of how wrong you are construction wages in the US has continued to increase while we are experiencing a shortage after the recession even with our current immigration policy according to your delusions that should never happen.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    If you want to believe that fine by me. Its not my task to educate you on the finer points of economy. But the article clearly demonstrates that reuding migration has a positive effect on the construction workers.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And you condemn the bulk of the population to abject poverty with your version of capitalism . These same people will get angry after a while and go French revolution on your ass. So yes it is batshit insane what you are doing.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So where do you draw the line?
    You are no different than those who support a UBI, or increasing the minimum wage to a "livable wage.."

    If you want to call for a socialist (or national socialist) rebellion, be my guest. Just dont expect me to support it, and expect violent resistance.

    We've seen how that plays out.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    This is not a positive. In fact, this will most certainly subject the UK to permanent levels of lower growth even recessions due to the inability to start construction projects, the precursor to economic expansion. The UK leaving the EU will only bring economic malaise to the UK, not prosperity.
    Ah yes i heard the same BS in 2016 concerning Trump. Didn't happen now did it? But what pisses me of the most is that you are not only pulling facts out of your ass. Your pulling facts out of your ass for ideological reasons. You do not give a damn about the working class . The last 4 years the democrats only achievement is bitching at trump and failed investigations and nothing else. And worse the democratic strongholds of the New york san fransico and portland are complete shitholes. So the left wing is incompetent as well. Why should i take your advice with such sterling credentials.

  15. #155
    The Insane Daelak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    And this is the reason why so many people will vote for Trump again 2020. The working class is suffering under current Globalist economy and instead of taking the problem seriously you label them xenophobe for idealogical reasons. This is the reason why the current left wing party and their utterly worthless ideas needs to be trampled into the dust and humiliated.
    They aren't suffering, it's just natural movement of the market. Creating a continental union would solve both the problem of anemic annual GDP growth and more demand for jobs across all sectors of the economy. What your espousing would only hinder their efforts even more, since restricting immigration will also contract GDP growth, which has been below average during the Trump Administration.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    Ah yes i heard the same BS in 2016 concerning Trump. Didn't happen now did it? But what pisses me of the most is that you are not only pulling facts out of your ass. Your pulling facts out of your ass for ideological reasons. You do not give a damn about the working class . The last 4 years the democrats only achievement is bitching at trump and failed investigations and nothing else. And worse the democratic strongholds of the New york san fransico and portland are complete shitholes. So the left wing is incompetent as well. Why should i take your advice with such sterling credentials.
    It is happening in the UK currently, and it will continue to fester the longer they restrict immigration and distort the market with government intervention.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There is a problem, but I know just banning guns will fix the problem.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    First it's what happened you are literally denying reality second the article clearly stated that the increase in wages hasn't helped the shortage.
    Of course ! it will take a good decade before the pool of talent is replenished . But its not the problem of the workers that the construction companies where bunch greedy short-sighted fucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Where do you think the cost of those raises go? You do realize that the UK has a housing problem right? You clearly do not understand the basics of a labor market, economy or real life for that matter.
    I value stability over short term gain. The current economic model is not sustainable as people can not get a permanent contract and their fore a loan for houses or cars. So i dont care. If prices are to high they inevitably will be lowered

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Let me give you another example of how wrong you are construction wages in the US has continued to increase while we are experiencing a shortage after the recession even with our current immigration policy according to your delusions that should never happen.
    Are the East bloc countries the same as the Latino countries? oh wait they are not! its not uncommon to see 80% of a construction workforce to consist out of poles Romanians or Tjechs. Different peoples offer different skills. and if this was not you being completely ignorant i would consider your statement to be racist.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    Yes and in an ideal economy, people refusing jobs due to low pay means the jobs go unfilled, the jobs presumably still need to be done though, which increases the demand for labor to fill the jobs, which increase the pay offered to fill those jobs until it reaches a point where people who once refused the jobs are actually willing to take the jobs for the pay offered.

    That doesn't happen if you have an unending influx of poor migrants willing to take those jobs and work for peanuts. Such a circumstance drastically reduces the demand for labor and keeps wages low since there will always be someone willing to work for such low pay.
    Well, we will see how quickly the high wage demanders will adapt, won't we?

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    They aren't suffering, it's just natural movement of the market. Creating a continental union would solve both the problem of anemic annual GDP growth and more demand for jobs across all sectors of the economy. What your espousing would only hinder their efforts even more, since restricting immigration will also contract GDP growth, which has been below average during the Trump Administration.

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    It is happening in the UK currently, and it will continue to fester the longer they restrict immigration and distort the market with government intervention.
    Oh yes go to the Rustbelt and as those people their if they are not suffering. November 2020 will be your day of reckoning , I cannot wait until the democrats lose all their power for the next 20 years.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    Yes and in an ideal economy, people refusing jobs due to low pay means the jobs go unfilled, the jobs presumably still need to be done though, which increases the demand for labor to fill the jobs, which increase the pay offered to fill those jobs until it reaches a point where people who once refused the jobs are actually willing to take the jobs for the pay offered.

    That doesn't happen if you have an unending influx of poor migrants willing to take those jobs and work for peanuts. Such a circumstance drastically reduces the demand for labor and keeps wages low since there will always be someone willing to work for such low pay.
    in a realistic actual world, not a unicorn filled world like you are stating, most businesses have the ability to hold out a lot longer than the "low income" folks and eventually those people HAVE to take those low pay jobs just to be able to eat and pay for necessities.

    That is where we are now. That is why wages at the low end have not increase other than those states that have increased the min wage.
    Take out those states and I bet there has been negative growth in that income bracket.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    I value stability over short term gain. The current economic model is not sustainable as people can not get a permanent contract and their fore a loan for houses or cars. So i dont care. If prices are to high they inevitably will be lowered
    Shortages are the enemy of long term stability and that's not how prices work, everything will work itself out is an argument against your stance apparently you don't understand irony.

    Are the East bloc countries the same as the Latino countries? oh wait they are not! its not uncommon to see 80% of a construction workforce to consist out of poles Romanians or Tjechs. Different peoples offer different skills. and if this was not you being completely ignorant i would consider your statement to be racist.
    Did you miss the part where I said this is an example of how your economic theories are delusional? Do you simply not understand words on top of reality?

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