Ocasio-Cortez endorsez Schumer primary challenger

[JohnBrown1917]

Skroe's assessment of a potential President Sanders in the other thread is bang on. With the current state of your governing chambers there is no winning for actual progressive policy. Progressives do indeed have to change the party first, then they can worry about winning elections in the Houses and for the White House.

They are doing both, although I understand why far right conservatives like Skroe will fight against it with all they have.

[Elegiac]

It's not about the policy. It's about the approach to politics.

Cool, and that approach has nothing to do with where you are on the political spectrum. You're just letting your contempt for leftists hang out, and it's tiresome as all fuck. If you want to criticise scorched earth tactics? By all means. But turning it into a grand condemnation of leftist values every time a primary challenge comes up? Miss me with that bullshit.

Again, we wonder why civic participation and civic investment in the US is so utterly abysmal and all I'm left doing here is shaking my head at you putting a gun labeled "GOP" to people's heads and screaming at them that they need to vote in a specific way that might not reflect them as a person or really benefit them at all or else.

So "sit down and shut up for this election so we can fix things"? The problem is that none of them believe that you will. Whatever trust that was there was destroyed by half a century of Republican and Republican-lite policies.

How factual that is, is immaterial. You fucked up your PR campaign and are now bitching at customers for not buying your products.

[Paranoid Android]

Schumer is horrible. I have no idea who this person running against him and thus don't support this move but I wish NY would elect someone with more of a backbone. It's the blue of blue states.

Now I see @Skroe and others just shaking their head. Hey, we are here. Look at the reddest of red states and the the die-hard conservatives they have as Senators. Yes, Skroe you point is we are going extreme left and extreme right with no middle. I hate it. But what is there to do, since I'm sorry, but this has come from the right the past 10 years. Can't have the extreme right-wingers and pussy cats like Schumer who say "yeah I don't agree with them, but I'm not going to do anything".

[Draco-Onis]

It's not about the policy. It's about the approach to politics. You keep missing this. By missing it, you're missing the leading problem in American politics.

But Schummer is a pathetically weak leader democrats have yet to find their version of Moscow Mitch, so why not challenge him?

[Rukh]

They are doing both, although I understand why far right conservatives like Skroe will fight against it with all they have.

Ok time out. I don't mean this to sound rude, but I'm not always very eloquent. It's not my goal.

But what are you doing?

You get handed a page outlining all of Schumer's votes and positions where he's consistently aligning with progressive causes but he's "Conservative". Skroe, in his position about trying to oust Trump and get Democrats in to power is "Right wing". I think other people may be able to think of a few positions further right than ousting Trump.

Now you might use some sort of alternative political labeling system where anyone to the right of Noam Chomsky is far-right, but YOU KNOW other people don't. And you're talking to other people. Communication is the shared meaning of words and symbols. It doesn't work if you try to just impose your own meaning. So I have to ask. Why would people give your assertions and credibility? You do want to be taken seriously right?

I mean I see you're for actual communism so maybe credibility isn't your thing but then what are you doing? Do you think that you're going to help communist ideas by pushing these things out that just have people scratching their heads? Do you just wanna hear yourself talk?

See the thing is, I WANT progressive people to be successful. That's the whole point. But you do that by building bridges, building alliances, creating a power base, winning seats. You don't do it by shitting on anyone who could potentially help you and alienating the population. I want progressive ideas to happen, but it's not going to be happen if progressives keep acting like such short-sighted fanatics.

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Schumer is horrible. I have no idea who this person running against him and thus don't support this move but I wish NY would elect someone with more of a backbone. It's the blue of blue states.

Now I see @Skroe and others just shaking their head. Hey, we are here. Look at the reddest of red states and the the die-hard conservatives they have as Senators. Yes, Skroe you point is we are going extreme left and extreme right with no middle. I hate it. But what is there to do, since I'm sorry, but this has come from the right the past 10 years. Can't have the extreme right-wingers and pussy cats like Schumer who say "yeah I don't agree with them, but I'm not going to do anything".

The right going extreme-right is exactly why the Blue Wave is happening. Moderates feel alienated by conservatives, and they're the ones in 2018 that made the move and made the difference. The last thing that Democrats need to do right now is copy Republicans.

Yes, the far-left was energized, but it was because the far-right became the center of the Republican part and the target to oppose. Lets not copy them and energize the far right and push out the moderates. Lets take this chance to make a power base, gain control, stop the hemorrhaging of our international reputation and the economic slide in to practical feudalism.

[Elegiac]

The right going extreme-right is exactly why the Blue Wave is happening. Moderates feel alienated by conservatives, and they're the ones in 2018 that made the move and made the difference. The last thing that Democrats need to do right now is copy Republicans.

Americans need to be legally barred from commenting on the "extreme left" until their Overton Window is corrected, change my mind.

[Sorshen]

"Leftist" ideology is only radical to people that have been conditioned to be selfish but still yell 'Jesus!' and 'my guns are freedom!' since birth.

[Skroe]

Cool, and that approach has nothing to do with where you are on the political spectrum. You're just letting your contempt for leftists hang out, and it's tiresome as all fuck. If you want to criticise scorched earth tactics? By all means. But turning it into a grand condemnation of leftist values every time a primary challenge comes up? Miss me with that bullshit.

Again, we wonder why civic participation and civic investment in the US is so utterly abysmal and all I'm left doing here is shaking my head at you putting a gun labeled "GOP" to people's heads and screaming at them that they need to vote in a specific way that might not reflect them as a person or really benefit them at all or else.

Because this is the real world and those are the stakes. We don't live in a time, or a world, where people can vote their conscience. We are living a national security incident as a Russian-backed Strong man cheats in elections and tries to remake America in Russia's image.

And you want to talk about Medicare? When those are the stakes? You think peoples healthcare matters in the face of that? Is that some kind of joke? Fuck off with that nonsense, rofl.

We all must rally around the most effective weapon to defeat Trump and his allies. That is not progressive ideology. That's the "idea that Trump is dangerous and we have to put aside our differences and stop him". A moment of national unity between those who value democracy and those who do not.

The past month has thoroughly convinced me most progressives are not up to the task. I gave you all the benefit of the doubt for three years, including through the 2018 election. Now that we're getting into crunch time for the Presidential election, You are doing what I feared you'd all do. You're treating Trump like a regular Republican president and this as an opportunity.

And that is why you are going to lose. Because you will have successfully broken up the only coalition capable of beating Trump. Because there are not enough progressives or Democrats alone to do it. Not by a long shot.

So "sit down and shut up for this election so we can fix things"? The problem is that none of them believe that you will. Whatever trust that was there was destroyed by half a century of Republican and Republican-lite policies.

How factual that is, is immaterial. You fucked up your PR campaign and are now bitching at customers for not buying your products.

Yup. Sit down and shut up for this election. Recognize the moment and the threat. The difference is, I want to win. By any means necessary. Against a very real and specific threat. You want to feel validated and see a pathway to power. If I thought a different avenue to defeating Trump was viable, I'd choose that. I do not because their is not. I seek triage. You are - absolutely insanely I might add - wanting to skip triage and go right to treatment. Heh. If you think that's going to work, god help us all.

Again you people... you're doing what I feared you'd do: you treating Trump as an opportunity rather than as a threat.

You're going to end up with nothing. Worse. You'll end up with less than you have now.

I'll be fine. You won't be. So keep walking down this path and see what bitter defeat tastes like. I'll have my morality, my ethics and my sense of decency offended. The lot of you stand to lose far far more.

Really, the way to win is quite clear. Let's see if you people have the courage to take it. I have my doubts. I had the courage to forsake 15 years of active (and expensive) republican / conservative involvement because of Trump. You people have not shown, or given up one fraction of what I have. What many of us in NeverTrump have.

Let's see if you have it in you. Again, I don't think you do. I think when it comes down to it, you're just as cowardly and opportunistic as the most base Trumphadi.

America deserves better.

[Rukh]

Americans need to be legally barred from commenting on the "extreme left" until their Overton Window is corrected, change my mind.

I don't have to change your mind if I don't respect your opinion.

You're right that the US is more right-leaning on some things than many other countries. But areas that are extreme are relative to the population.

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"Leftist" ideology is only radical to people that have been conditioned to be selfish but still yell 'Jesus!' and 'my guns!' since birth.

That's great and all. The point here isn't about actual positions but about being able to cooperate with people who share some of your beliefs but not all in order to get things done. You know, actual change, not shouting really loudly.

And the actual positions don't matter relative to that. The position could be outlawing toothbrushes. If you have a position a minority of people support you may want to cooperate with the outlaw some of the toothbrushes people against the make toothbrushes mandatory people. Unless you don't actually care about toothbrushes and you just like the identity of being anti-toothbrush and in reality could care less if every house in America has a toothbrush.

Maybe that was too obtuse an analogy.

[Elegiac]

You're treating Trump like a regular Republican president

And why do you think that is.

You had the run of the show for decades and Trump still happened. Why on earth should we believe you when you say you'll prevent it this time?

I really just think you don't understand just how badly the Republican brand is perceived and how, in the GOP's efforts to make the Republican Party the party of patriotism, that has tainted the perception of the US itself.

[Skroe]

Schumer is horrible. I have no idea who this person running against him and thus don't support this move but I wish NY would elect someone with more of a backbone. It's the blue of blue states.

Now I see @Skroe and others just shaking their head. Hey, we are here. Look at the reddest of red states and the the die-hard conservatives they have as Senators. Yes, Skroe you point is we are going extreme left and extreme right with no middle. I hate it. But what is there to do, since I'm sorry, but this has come from the right the past 10 years. Can't have the extreme right-wingers and pussy cats like Schumer who say "yeah I don't agree with them, but I'm not going to do anything".

We take out Trump utilizing people who can win, wherever they live, and once in power we bring them to justice and reform aspects of Presidential power and legal loopholes that got us here.

We sort out the larger, systemic issues later. We win now, first, with whatever we can. You can build your idealized vision of what Democrats and the country should be after we've accomplished that goal.

What is there to do? Treat an emergency as an emergency, not an opportunity. And utilize any tool - ANY TOOL - at hand as optimally as possible to win at that.


I just want to say once again: Nancy Pelosi has a House Majority on the back of Centrist Democrats who won in Trump-held districts. Not because of Progressives. House Democrats have their majority and impeached Trump and stopped Trump dead in his tracks on many issues, because Nancy Pelosi and her team had the wisdom to ignore *motions at MMO progressives* most of you, who are wrong about how to build a winning coalition to defeat Trump.

It insane to me that you people want to turn your back on the winning strategy of 2018 in 2020. And if Trump wins because you do that, you'll deserve that loss. Truly. Every shit thing he does because you fight 2020 without learning from what worked in 2018, it's on the people who made it possible and RATIONALIZED why 2020 had to be different than 2018.

[Ivanstone]

It's not about the policy. It's about the approach to politics. You keep missing this. By missing it, you're missing the leading problem in American politics.

Primary's are a thing that happens in American politics. Dan Crowley's out because he was a weak politician who couldn't be bothered to properly defend his seat against a challenger. Now its Schumer's time to grow a spine and fend off a potential challenger. If he succeeds hopefully he'll be a better politician for it.

I would also be remiss in reminding you that Trump took over the GOP because people like you turned a blind eye to the likes of Jesse Helms and various other shitheads who thought dog whistle politics were a great idea. Seriously I think you're seriously over-estimating the GOP's ability to do politics. Yes, McConnell's good at it. The rest? They're just hoping that racism, voter suppression and dark money might carry the day.

[Elegiac]

Primary's are a thing that happens in American politics. Dan Crowley's out because he was a weak politician who couldn't be bothered to properly defend his seat against a challenger. Now its Schumer's time to grow a spine and fend off a potential challenger. If he succeeds hopefully he'll be a better politician for it.

I would also be remiss in reminding you that Trump took over the GOP because people like you turned a blind eye to the likes of Jesse Helms and various other shitheads who thought dog whistle politics were a great idea. Seriously I think you're seriously over-estimating the GOP's ability to do politics. Yes, McConnell's good at it. The rest? They're just hoping that racism, voter suppression and dark money might carry the day.

This is an excellent point, as well.

If you're genuinely that worried about a primary challenge chances are you aren't a particularly strong candidate anyway. So maybe the moderates need to stop electing such milquetoasts that can't stand up to a light breeze if they weren't in safe Democratic districts.

[Skroe]

And why do you think that is.

You had the run of the show for decades and Trump still happened. Why on earth should we believe you when you say you'll prevent it this time?

I really just think you don't understand just how badly the Republican brand is perceived and how, in the GOP's efforts to make the Republican Party the party of patriotism, that has tainted the perception of the US itself.

I work part-time at an anti-Trump PAC since 2017 that operates mostly in New Hampshire and Wisconsin and you say this? What precisely have you done, other than wave the flag of progressivism and whine about Trump? I've been ACTUALLY fighting this monster alongside people who are mostly life long Democrats. What precisely have you done other than indulging your own political egocentrism?

Frankly, I think you're the one without a goddamn clue as to the political climate here. You're so seeking political validation, you can't see it any other way. Your rants about America not being a Democracy - nonserious rants mind you - are evidence enough of that. If you want to win at politics, if doesn't matter what you think. It matters what other people think. And the way to win is to subtly shift them one way to another, and a rant about America's historic injustices accomplishes precisely nothing in that regard.

You're bad at this, in other words.

You are going to hand Trump Wisconsin, and probably New Hampshire at this rate, and not even realize you did it. Because for someone who supposedly cares about others, you're incapable of putting yourselves in others shoes and thinking strategically about how to make that work for your own political advantage.

Instead you just want to advance the progressive slate and make anti-Republican points. Because that's where you're most comfortable. Because that's what's easy.

[Elegiac]

I work part-time at an anti-Trump PAC since 2017 that operates mostly in New Hampshire and Wisconsin and you say this?

Yes, I do. Because regardless of what you happen to be doing at this moment or what you have done, it cannot change this simple fact: despite having marginalized and excluded "fringe leftists" from the party proper for nearly half a century, all the Third Way strategy and political moderation in the world did not stop Bush, and it did not stop Trump.

Left wingers don't matter, we're irrelevant, we aren't where the necessary votes are.

And yet the entire fate of the Republic seems to be on our shoulders from the way you carry on. Like I said: there's a lot to respect about you, but this clear animus against progressive positions and political figures is leaking out everywhere and staining otherwise intelligent commentary.

[Endus]

Yup. Sit down and shut up for this election. Recognize the moment and the threat. The difference is, I want to win. By any means necessary. Against a very real and specific threat.

And that's the problem.

That's why Trump got elected. It's the abandonment of principle and reason, in favor of blind partisanship and "us vs them" jockeying, that is the problem. Trump is a symptom, not the disease.

Some of us would rather pay attention to dealing with the underlying causes, because if we don't fix those, the USA's time is up, and it's a question of when, not if, the Republic collapses in on itself.

And your attempt to frame everyone not on "your side" as an inveterate villain, that's the central issue. That's what leads to a Trump Presidency. All you're really arguing, here, is that the democrats need an anti-Trump to fight Trump. Someone who's exactly the same, but wears a different-colored jersey, so it's an even match.

That kind of "win" doesn't fix a damned thing. It buys the USA another 4 years, at best. And then you'll have to do it all again. And it will never get better, since you just give the "enemy" the opportunity to come up with a less-embarrassing, more-competent figurehead, while you fight a delaying action. You're fighting to hold the enemy at bay for one more battle; you're not even thinking about winning the war.

It may be that the war can't be won, here. It may be that Americans are too apathetic, too easily-led, too willfully ignorant for democracy to function. It may be that this is the beginning of the end, the inevitable decline and collapse of the American Republic. And frankly, if that's the case, it would be better to let it happen, by design and with eyes open to the outcomes, rather than to delay it without a plan and let the whole thing collapse into anarchy.

But asking people to abandon their principles and reason, to serve what's politically convenient without any eye on the future?

That's how Trump got elected. That is the rot at the heart of America. You're just trying to convince Democrats to become as ideologically barren as the Republicans. That doesn't help. It makes it all worse.

[Themius]

There are days I hate being right.

What are you right about? You mean democrats can't disagree with other democrats and all must back the same policies? Last I checked we aren't the GOP.

[Skroe]

Primary's are a thing that happens in American politics. Dan Crowley's out because he was a weak politician who couldn't be bothered to properly defend his seat against a challenger. Now its Schumer's time to grow a spine and fend off a potential challenger. If he succeeds hopefully he'll be a better politician for it.

I would also be remiss in reminding you that Trump took over the GOP because people like you turned a blind eye to the likes of Jesse Helms and various other shitheads who thought dog whistle politics were a great idea. Seriously I think you're seriously over-estimating the GOP's ability to do politics. Yes, McConnell's good at it. The rest? They're just hoping that racism, voter suppression and dark money might carry the day.

No. Trump took over the GOP because the Bush Administration, and then the financial crisis so cleared the bench of talent, that left politics after his term was up, that the Tea Party rose unopposed to take over the party, and it shifted far, far to the right.

The radical right phenomenon is not new. Recall the John Birch Society. It's more of that. THe difference is, this time unlike prior times, there was an emaciated and compromised establishment to keep a lid on it. Bad candidates, poor organization in 2012 and 2016 created this mess.

Let me put this in perspective. Once upon a time George H.W. Bush was head of the RNC. So was Lee Atwater, Haley Barbour and Bob Dole. And in 2016, who was head of the RNC? Reince fucking Priebus.

You want to know how Trump became President? Because the Republican Party as an institution was broken by the Bush Administration, and was inflicted with an opportunistic infection (usually kept under control) during the Obama years, that went critical in 2016. And the same thing is happening now in the Democratic Party, because Obama, like Bush, wiped out the Democrat's political future in service of his own administration.

That's why we have three candidates in their 70s, a billionaire, a gay mayor and a mostly obscure Senator running for President. And the pipeline doesn't get any better for 2024 either. Democrats need to elect young governors in their 40s with crossover appeal who be in a position to run for President, or become cabinet members or purple-state Senators over the next decade, in order to repair themselves. Else the Bernie Sanders infection will become as terminal as the Trump infection. Because they are exactly the same.

[Themius]

The Tea Party of the left has a name. Justice Democrats.

It was a matter of time before the political approach Jeremy Corbyn-style leftism made its way across the Atlantic. Extremist groups always go after "the enemy within" first. They can't help themselves. The apostates are worse than the ideological opposite.

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Yup.

Trump 2020... god help us all.

This is bs and you know it.

Radical "leftist" ideology? What the fuck is "radical leftist" ideology? You and other non-democrats who have lost their party because it has gone fucking cultist really shouldn't be preaching to democrats about how they need to act more like the party you're temporarily against due to their cult like behaviour.

[Elegiac]

What are you right about? You mean democrats can't disagree with other democrats and all must back the same policies? Last I checked we aren't the GOP.

In order to save America from the ideologically barren Republicans who will trample over all laws human and divine for the sake of victory, we must become ideologically barren and trample over all laws human and divine.

Also known as the Bloomberg stump speech.