Do raiders think dungeons are beneath them?

[ReVnX]

I think 15+ is a hell of alot harder on every group member than mythic raids. Unless you mean harder as in scraping together a group that can follow tactics. Individual skill requirements much higher in M+. Healing/tanking especially.

If that was the case we would have Mythic clears everywhere.

I'm doing 13-15's at 457-460 ilvl

[Shiny212]

If that was the case we would have Mythic clears everywhere.

I'm doing 13-15's at 457-460 ilvl

No, because as I said, the real difficulty is getting a raid together with no bad apples. Getting 5 people together is easier, but their individual skill required is higher than any one player in a mythic raid. There's also way higher variance in M+, since some weeks it's tremendously harder than others for X role/class or everyone. But at the end of the day, mythic raids are about alot more than "skill". It's gear checks (timegates), numbers of players required, length of activity etc.

Great example, try healing a mythic raid, vs healing a +15 with bursting. It's not even close.

[Xath]

I think 15+ is a hell of alot harder on every group member than mythic raids. Unless you mean harder as in scraping together a group that can follow tactics. Individual skill requirements much higher in M+. Healing/tanking especially.

No it's not. Not in the slightest outside maybe Prophet. M15 has the same exact mechanics as M0 plus some affixs. The only difficulty comes from pure numbers. There is a reason that the top raiders in the world can consistently win mdi despite not caring about M+ for the majority of the season. The mechanics needed are nowhere near as high as in current raids.

[Athredas]

Mythic dungeons are one of the worst things that ever happened to this game and nothing will change my opinion on this. Only very few things damaged the community more than this cesspool of elitists and tryhards.

[Shiny212]

No it's not. Not in the slightest outside maybe Prophet. M15 has the same exact mechanics as M0 plus some affixs. The only difficulty comes from pure numbers. There is a reason that the top raiders in the world can consistently win mdi despite not caring about M+ for the majority of the season. The mechanics needed are nowhere near as high as in current raids.

Boss "Tactics" in wow are not rocket science, you don't need especially good mechanics to execute any of them. Once you know the tactic, it's peanuts. I always think it's hilarious to see people talk about "mechanics" required to do raids, or indeed any pve. WoW is an EASY game, mechanically, it's not a MOBA or FPS, it's slow and forgiving mechanically, except maybe at the highest levels of pvp. Statchecks are the name of the game, mechanics or boss tactics represent a small, superficial detail in the grand scheme of things and generally is a snoozefest to execute.

The reason why you see gaming organizations "do well" consistently is cos they've made it a business! They obtain sponsorships for entertainment and pay people to play the game ALOT in an organized fashion. This gives them the best chance to fight the biggest obstacle in WoW, which is time.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Here's the deal.
And you can find a 12/12 mythic raider who fails on dungeon mechanics in an M+15 because they don't have any experience in higher key

i'm Legit curious do you really think a + 15 key is high? especially for mythic players who are 10/12+? im asking as a 2.9 io player i rly want to understand your train of thought cuz my guild mates (11/12M) who are not actively playing M+ except the +15 key have never had any problems to do them in time +2 some of thoes palyers are legit ~1200 score.

I think 15+ is a hell of alot harder on every group member than mythic raids. Unless you mean harder as in scraping together a group that can follow tactics. Individual skill requirements much higher in M+. Healing/tanking especially.

Also a big LOL on this

[Cosmic Janitor]

I doubt there are many mythic raiders out there, let alone full cleared ones at this point in time, that don't run a weekly m+15 in the first place. That is pretty much part of the grind at this point. The same is true for a large chunk of heroic raiders whose guild/raid has mythic aspirations or wants early heroic full clears. If they can or can't be arsed to push keys depends on the person I guess, in general I'm pretty much convived that the overwhelming majority just wants a quick 15 run and be done with this shit for the week. At least everyone I know is so over BfA dungeons and the seasonal affixes idea hasn't proven to be very entertaining either. The current ones for example are mostly a testament to squandered potential if anything.

[Xath]

Boss "Tactics" in wow are not rocket science, you don't need especially good mechanics to execute any of them. Once you know the tactic, it's peanuts. I always think it's hilarious to see people talk about "mechanics" required to do raids, or indeed any pve. WoW is an EASY game, mechanically, it's not a MOBA or FPS, it's slow and forgiving mechanically, except maybe at the highest levels of pvp. Statchecks are the name of the game, mechanics or boss tactics represent a small, superficial detail in the grand scheme of things and generally is a snoozefest to execute.

The reason why you see gaming organizations "do well" consistently is cos they've made it a business! They obtain sponsorships for entertainment and pay people to play the game ALOT in an organized fashion. This gives them the best chance to fight the biggest obstacle in WoW, which is time.

Go watch mythic nzoth. Also it's not the orgs it's the actual players from limit and method who little the top mdi teams. The sheer amount of coordination and tactics needed for late mythic fights are leagues above M15.

[Sliske]

In my experience every single thing that can result in cliques forming, means said cliques will start looking down upon people that do other things and even other cliques within their own personal favourite activity.

For instance, I have seen heroic raiders that have never gotten past 1750 rating in arena say arena is a joke and easy and so on and for noobs. I've seen countless pvpers that are hard stuck at 1700 rating despite playing the game for 15 years and having hundreds of thousands of HKs, say raiding is easy and just scripted and for noobs.

I've seen it said of every group, to every other group. You see it from game to game. WoW is too ez, at least in my game, GW2, you have to aim your abilities and so on and so on and so on.

Every single one of these people are for some reason trying to roleplay as mentally ill. If you're clearing mythic raids a month after release, you're easily capable of getting gladiator. If you're getting gladiator every season, you're easily capable of doing 3k io score. If you're getting 3k io score every season, you're easily capable of being in a world 1-200 mythic guild.

WoW is an mmo. The vast majority of things don't take an enormous amount of skill - even gladiator every season. It just takes a shit ton of experience. Grinding at it for hours so that you know what is actually going on and aren't just pressing buttons randomly, rather than planning and reacting.

[Pony Soldier]

Maybe.

I would think there are a lot of raiders who like thinking anyone not on their ilvl or higher is beneath them. Both in the game and in the real world. They have a super tough guy character so their ego skyrockets to a point where they get high on themselves and they think they're smarter and just generally better than everyone else who hasn't wasted as many years of their life playing this game as they have. "I put hard work into my character! You don't deserve to have fun or to have all things you have on your character. You have WELFARE gear!".

So to say that they think dungeons are beneath them isn't so outlandish.

[Chromell]

In my experience raids overall require more coordination and skill (this may vary from fight to fight ofc) than dungeons do. Granted there are exceptions to every rule, but logically dungeons bosses are usually simpler than raid encounters, also for the fact that most fights are designed for 1-1-3 comps. That being said, Mythic+ comes into scene and that kinda changes the dynamic as it funnels thinner the error margin the higher the levels go (also while adding more mechanics/affixes). Though few of them are actually on par with raid mechanics difficulty, imo.

[Hellobolis]

i'm way more entitled that than. i expect a invite to a +12-15 on my freshly dinged alt.

luckily i'm in a sooper elite hardcore ultra extreme raiding guild where the keys are coming out of the walls.

unfortunately everybody else also expects these invites so all i ever do is either pushing keys or hard carries lol, never just a relaxing run.

[Advent]

Raids require more coordination, but definitely not more skill, whatever your definition of skill is in a game like this. But that's merely because you've got 20 people to herd instead of 5. Try herding 20 sheep versus herding 5, I'm sure it will probably be more of a hassle. But that doesn't mean those 20 sheep were more "skilled" than the group of 5.

[Sharby]

Beneath? Nope, I do dislike the m+ culture though. In my experience there's lots more elitism and ragequits than in mythic raiding.

In my experience its because its more of a solo effort and some classes shine a lot more in these environments. And people think they're hot shit for playing said specs (Prot War/Outlaw/DH.)


If you're a hard caster in a group with a Prot War/Outlaw/DH, and they continuously LoS you, never interrupt CC's, etc etc, you do shit damage, but no one ever looks at the circumstances and just flame away/leave the group over it, thinking they were fine because top damage.

[threads]

i think it's the opposite. M+ players think they are above everyone else. some people just want a weekly dungeon without having to grind up some score. if they had a raiderio for raiding, m+ people would prob lose their shit if they had to go back and do every raid on meaningless difficulties.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Yes... Anyone trying to argue mythic raids don't take more skill than high mythic dungeons doesn't know what they're talking about. As someone who has done both, they're not even comparable.

[Skildar]

dungeon and raid is just not the same kind of content...
I want to raid and don't want to do MM+ the rest of the time.

[KaPe]

lol at the guy saying m+ 15 is harder than raiding at a mythic level.

Skitra is easy = Mythic raiding is easy. Perfect logic, I can't see a single flaw in it.

[Shiny212]

Go watch mythic nzoth. Also it's not the orgs it's the actual players from limit and method who little the top mdi teams. The sheer amount of coordination and tactics needed for late mythic fights are leagues above M15.

Yea, once again, "coordination and tactics" don't take particularly great mechanical skill. It's a case of move out of the shit. WoW is mechanically simple, but if you were to rank its activities it'd be, pvp - M+ - M raids. The big difficulty in raids, always has been, and still is, making a larger group of people work together in sync, not perform great feats of mechanical skill.

[Biomega]

i'm Legit curious do you really think a + 15 key is high?

Not in the absolute, no. Which is why I didn't say "high", but used a relative.