Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[JohnBrown1917]

Only if you believe the bullshit.

Even if a lot of it is, her being friendly with Indian fascists is unacceptable.

[Lenonis]

Supreme Court nominations. RBG is 86 and Breyer is 81.

this right here is the heart of the blue no matter who movement. If the dems allow the fractured primary to result in a Trump 2nd term the damage done to anything even resembling moderate to left wing policy will be incalculable.

And why I have little patience for anyone who says anything other than "I will vote for the dem nominee regardless of who it is". nothing else matters more in this election than the SCOTUS.

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Only if you believe the bullshit.

doesn't matter. Tusli doused her brand in gasoline and lit it on fire. The people she is popular with wouldn't vote for Bernie anyway. She would be a campaign destroying pick for VP and thus I have no doubt Bernie will avoid that obvious mistake.

[mvaliz]

What about Bernie is not centrist?

I feel Americans have little clue of what centrist means... their idea of centrist is a solid conservative for the rest of the world.

Please speak of Politics of America via American-Politics speak. We all know Bernie is "centrist" in the rest of the 1st world countries - the problem is convincing my fellow Americans of this fact, and telling it to them doesn't resonate with them cus "Duhhh 'Murica FUCK YEAH!" >_<

[Themius]

Please speak of Politics of America via American-Politics speak. We all know Bernie is "centrist" in the rest of the 1st world countries - the problem is convincing my fellow Americans of this fact, and telling it to them doesn't resonate with them cus "Duhhh 'Murica FUCK YEAH!" >_<

I can't stand it though. Like I feel to get Americans to see that no... he isn't far left is to compare us to every other country and be like "see we are the radical ones, radical right wing, so right our right wing and centrists are apparently crazy radical sjw liberals! who want to shoot you in Central Park!"



It's sad... I can't stand American myopia.

[Drutt]

Even if a lot of it is, her being friendly with Indian fascists is unacceptable.

This is exactly the sort of nonsense I'm referring to. Gabbard has stated on multiple occasions that she doesn't support Modi's party. Example:

I have no affiliation with the RSS. Sometimes people on both sides, for their own purposes, try to say I somehow favor, or am part, of the BJP or take photos of me at Indian events and circulate them for their own promotional reasons. But the fact is, I’m not partial to BJP, the Congress Party, or any other particular political party in India.

And again:

“I too have been accused of being a ‘Hindu nationalist’,” the Hawaiian democrat wrote. “My meetings with Prime Minister Narendra Modi, India’s democratically elected leader, have been highlighted as ‘proof’ of this and portrayed as somehow being out of the ordinary or somehow suspect, even though President Obama, Secretary Clinton, President Trump and many of my colleagues in Congress have met with and worked with him.”

Obama described Modi as someone he liked and a good friend. No one blinked. No one called him a Hindu Nationalist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzS9AWO2phE

Gabbard believes in dialogue, a lesson that should have been learned from Northern Ireland but somehow has still not been learned by far too many. Talking to people doesn't mean you support their views or agree with them, especially when you're referring to the democratically elected leader of another country. There are exactly three things you can do with a foreign leader you don't like: declare war on them, ignore them, or open dialogue and try to effect change. The first one is ridiculous, the second won't change a thing. That leaves exactly one option.

[cubby]

Did the NV caucus results match what we saw in the polls just prior? I'm wondering how Super Tuesday is going to play out. South Carolina is the first southern test for the Sanders campaign. If he wins that one....

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Genuine question, since you're more and more likely to get Bernie as the nominee; what do people actually expect him to achieve within 4/8 years?

I don't see him getting M4A or anything of that nature done, personally. What else is he running on that may be realistic?

Replacing RBG and perhaps another SCOTUS seat. HUGE right there.

Almost nothing substantial in policy. The Dems winning the Presidency will just be about returning normalcy to the country. We'll root out Trump's criminal enterprise, Pelosi will start up the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and if we take the Senate, expect D.C. and Puerto Rico to enter the U.S. as states. Four more Blue Senators. Maybe take up the Wyoming option for the House.

But all of Sanders' policy plans? Nope - won't happen. They are and have always been too pie-in-the-sky unrealistic along with being far too "liberally" planned to woo conservative buy-in.

[mvaliz]

But all of Sanders' policy plans? Nope - won't happen. They are and have always been too pie-in-the-sky unrealistic along with being far too "liberally" planned to woo conservative buy-in.

I wonder how many husbands told their wives that woman's suffrage is all "pie in the sky".

I wonder how many slaves were told that their desires to be free were all just "pie in the sky".

I wonder how many homosexuals were told, not even 20 years ago, that the thought of being married to your loved one was just "pie in the sky".

Should I even mention a Black President of America?

As I said in another thread - it's not about getting everything Bernie wants, it's about taking the next step TO that. If we get even basic Medicare for All, I'd venture to guess that most will consider that a grand first step.

[jonnysensible]

I'll say this in all caps for those who still need it 433pages in :

THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY IS NOT A RACE TO SEE WHO APPEALS THE MOST TO REPUBLICANS.

[cubby]

I wonder how many husbands told their wives that woman's suffrage is all "pie in the sky".

I wonder how many slaves were told that their desires to be free were all just "pie in the sky".

I wonder how many homosexuals were told, not even 20 years ago, that the thought of being married to your loved one was just "pie in the sky".

Should I even mention a Black President of America?

As I said in another thread - it's not about getting everything Bernie wants, it's about taking the next step TO that. If we get even basic Medicare for All, I'd venture to guess that most will consider that a grand first step.

Oh please - spare me the hyperbole. You know as well as I do that the current state of the country isn't ready for all of Sanders' progressive policies. We have to fix what brought about Trump in the first place, then move forward. If we try and shove huge liberal policies down the throats of people who are still afraid of the brown invasion, we'll just get more fighting.

We need a more measured start to fixing the country.

Your response really pisses me off to be honest. It's so easy to claim all those wonderful things while completely ignoring the middle part where we actually get it done. Why don't you lay out your detailed plan for M4A instead of just saying "we'll do it!"? Let's see your step by step plan. How you get GOP buy-in. How you get the Red State AG's to not only implement it but not sue to break it apart. Remember SCOTUS? They could strike it down too.

How do you get 60 votes in the Senate?

Please, lay out your plans from Bernie, and how they will work. We'll wait.

[Mihalik]

What about Bernie is not centrist?

I feel Americans have little clue of what centrist means... their idea of centrist is a solid conservative for the rest of the world.

Centrist in the context of American politics. What I'm mostly thinking of is throwing a bone to the DNC in someone they would be more comfortable with just to tone down the Bernie panic a bit.

You have to keep in mind everyone left of Mussolini is Stalin in the US.

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sip

We've been doing gradualism since 2008...a whole lot of good it did us. At this pace of gradualism our great grandchildren's grandchildren will still be going to Mexico for insulin while being told "too soon".

[cubby]

We've been doing gradualism since 2008...a whole lot of good it did us. At this pace of gradualism our great grandchildren's grandchildren will still be going to Mexico for insulin while being told "too soon".

The ACA was gradualism?

[Mihalik]

The ACA was gradualism?

Yes, and a horrible one of top of that. Not to mention the little good it did has already been mostly scuttled piecemeal. Between 2008 and 2010 the Democrats could have passed whatever the fuck they wanted, instead they sat on their dicks fiddling their thumbs for 2 years.

[mvaliz]

Oh please - spare me the hyperbole. You know as well as I do that the current state of the country isn't ready for all of Sanders' progressive....

...no, I DON'T know that - and neither do you, and stop pretending you do. That's the whole point of our conversations in the past week+ about the massive disparity from expectations vs actual voting results... everything you and I believed to be true has been turning out to be completely wrong - or at minimum a complete misrepresentation of reality.

No, please spare me YOUR hyperbole. Things are changing... the only question is how much will actually happen, to wit if you actually read my last lines in that post you will know I kept my expectations at a minimum. I'm the only one keeping my points in check via flux based on new information that's happening right now - you are not. you are hard-linging for the sake of hard-lining with past data that's proven to be completely outdated, and therefore useless.

Did i say "All of Sanders "progressive Agenda" like you're asserting? Or did you just respond before you read the part where I said I'm expecting at least "Medicare for all" at minimum? Not sure if you're paying attention, but MFA is not even a "Sanders Progressive Agenda" anymore - as even fucking Biden has a Medicare for All option his his damn plan! That was my whole point about moving forward step-by-step, even post Bernie's tenure. >_<

I actually agreed with you about "all of sanders plans" not being implemented in that post, and you got all pissy at me. My whole point is to keep moving, even beyond Bernie. Read my last sentence which you clearly ignored. >_<

[Stormdash]

Did the NV caucus results match what we saw in the polls just prior? I'm wondering how Super Tuesday is going to play out. South Carolina is the first southern test for the Sanders campaign. If he wins that one....

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Replacing RBG and perhaps another SCOTUS seat. HUGE right there.

Almost nothing substantial in policy. The Dems winning the Presidency will just be about returning normalcy to the country. We'll root out Trump's criminal enterprise, Pelosi will start up the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and if we take the Senate, expect D.C. and Puerto Rico to enter the U.S. as states. Four more Blue Senators. Maybe take up the Wyoming option for the House.

But all of Sanders' policy plans? Nope - won't happen. They are and have always been too pie-in-the-sky unrealistic along with being far too "liberally" planned to woo conservative buy-in.

The only reason the District of Columbia exists at all, it's sole purpose in being, is for the seat of the federal government to not be within any State in the Union. If they want statehood, great, let's first create a new home rule federal district to be a new, appropriate seat for the federal government.

And fun fact? Puerto Ricans don't want to be a state. The last referendum had to be this moving target shell-game with a plurality vote to even get off the ground, it asked as a precursor referendum if Puerto Ricans wanted to "change the relationship" with the United States, didn't require a majority vote, and therefore also captured plenty of votes from people who do want to change the relationship by dissolving it. Then the second stage would have been a binary "statehood" or "independence" with the hope it would break in favor of statehood. The Puerto Rican statehood movement is a minority movement on the island and a popular pet project for American leftists who think they can get some reliable Senate seats out of it if they can only come up with a way to force it upon them. "Relax, Puerto Rico, just let it happen and you'll start to enjoy it".

[mvaliz]

How do you get 60 votes in the Senate?

Please, lay out your plans from Bernie, and how they will work. We'll wait.

You gradually vote them out with ones who will - or convince the current ones that their constituents will want that. You know one thing that sends that message? The majority voting for Bernie Sanders (and Liz Warren), for a start...

Wasn't it Kennedy who said "We don't do things because they're easy, we do them because they're hard"?

What's the point of trying for anything if we all take on defeatist attitudes like yourself?

Again, did you not read the part where I said "it's not about getting everything Bernie wants, it's about taking the next step TO that."?

Tell me, what's your plan to convert those seats over to better policy? Should we all follow your noble example, and simply sit there and get drunk while hoping milktoast-DNC-candidate #2 will do better in 2020 than Milktoast-DNC-candidate #1 in 2016?

[Stormdash]

The ACA was gradualism?

It was a project in planned obsolescence, intended to collapse under its own weight so that MFA or single-payer would be the on-demand We Must Do Something Now solution.

[bmjclark]

Did the NV caucus results match what we saw in the polls just prior? I'm wondering how Super Tuesday is going to play out. South Carolina is the first southern test for the Sanders campaign. If he wins that one....

At 60% reporting it's really not that far off. he's currently at about an 22 point lead compared to the roughly 18-19 that was polled before hand. I do suspect South Carolina is either going to be a tie or a narrow Bernie win at this point.

[Grapemask]

so what alternatives has bernie put forth besides M4A?

That's not how legislation works. It's not "come up with a complete plan or we do nothing at all."

Presumably, what would happen is that Bernie Sanders puts forward his plan, and people also demand healthcare action. The bills in each respective side of Congress go through all the stages of markup and amendments and what comes out would be whatever they agreed on, be it a complete Medicare For All or something else that resulted from that deliberative process. This is how we've gotten pretty much every law in the history of this country.

[Lenonis]

You gradually vote them out with ones who will - or convince the current ones that their constituents will want that.

Except there are large parts of the country whose constituents don't want Bernie's policies.

There is a very real political reality you aren't admitting which is getting 60 senators to support Bernie's agenda as it is will not happen.

Which is why I'm concerned about how puritanical idealists like you will handle a Bernie presidency where very little gets done without significant compromise....assuming Bernie would even be willing to compromise that is.

EDIT - I do understand some progressives are on board with incrementalism but many of Bernie's supporters vocally reject that. How will they handle it if Bernie does it? Or if nothing gets done in four years?

[Grapemask]

Oh please - spare me the hyperbole. You know as well as I do that the current state of the country isn't ready for all of Sanders' progressive policies. We have to fix what brought about Trump in the first place, then move forward.

"... who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises to wait for a 'more convenient season.'"

MLK said these things because "let's wait until things are better" has, and always will be, code for "let's never," because the time never comes.