1. #35061
    Bloodsail Admiral Sharby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    WoD had Garrisons and updated player models.

    Shadowlands has updated character customisations as well as levelling revamps.
    Character customization updates (in my opinion) while needed, shouldn't be praised as a groundbreaking new feature because the quality of the previous interface was way too low. They aren't giving other MMO's a run for their money with these changes but more no longer being extremely primitive.

    If the changes were more universal and applied to every existing race I may have been more inclined to consider them significant.

    Levelling isn't getting revamped, its getting squished. It is purely a technical things, as far as I see it, no new quests are being added or modified in any way. Thus, I am still unconvinced that it should be touted as a feature, and my point still remains that new players and inactive players will not look at a level squish with the same interest as they would look at a new class or race.




    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Basically this. One of the major complaints of BfA was shit alt system, and they seem to improve it vastly in SL.



    Why fixing already existing systems (that peeps been asking for for ages) is nothing? Are people really so fixated on a slogans like "new class/race/x", that when they don't see them, they deem an expansion as a "failure/filler"/WoD"? And SL HAS new fetures, in form of Thorghast and Maw, for example, but some people just choose to ignore them for argument sake.
    Leveling was never the problem anyone that I've seen ever had with BFA. The reason BFA gets labeled as being alt-unfriendly begins and ends with essences being time-gated and not account-wide.


    'We're fixing things we broke on our own' is not the selling point you think it is. Nor is it anything new, we aren't going anywhere special, we're just taking steps back to where we were before we stepped back.

    Torghast IS a new feature, however on the surface it doesn't have the same pull that a completely new play style or a completely new race would, and you know this to be true. I'm not insulting its quality because I don't know anything about it, but in my opinion it isn't groundbreaking or interesting enough fundamentally to be a solid draw to the expansion.


    Given the resounding success that Demon Hunters had in Legion, beating out many classic classes in popularity, downplaying the significance of adding a new class is dishonest. Pretending like I called ShL a failure is also dishonest.


    Please Note: I am not saying any of the features being added in ShL are bad, I think they are quite good and needed for the game, what I am saying that it isn't enough. Players were already dissatified with the current state of the game, and regardless of how you feel about it the popular opinion was that this expansion was mediocre and lacking.

    Going from this, to the following expac not looking to shake anything up, nor be groundbreaking in its own right is concerning and a big mistake on Blizzard's part (in my opinion.) It is very apparent to me why people would be doubtful as to what experience we are going to have with it.
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  2. #35062
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    Leveling was never the problem anyone that I've seen ever had with BFA. The reason BFA gets labeled as being alt-unfriendly begins and ends with essences being time-gated and not account-wide. Levelling isn't getting revamped, its getting squished. It is purely a technical things, as far as I see it, no new quests are being added or modified in any way. Thus, I am still unconvinced that it should be touted as a feature, and my point still remains that new players and inactive players will not look at a level squish with the same interest as they would look at a new class or race.
    But it WAS a problem, alt has to be leveled first, before you can even start acquiring essences (which were also a problem, of course). It accumulated throughout the years, and got worse when they introduced zone scaling (which I like). It made levelling longer because of XP gain and nerfed heirlooms. And no, it is not only a squish. You have a new 1-10 zone, and after that you can pick w/e xpac continent you want to level there to lvl 50 or 60. Also, WQ's will be available in SL for alts to level while doing them. So yes, it is a feature.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2020-02-23 at 07:55 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  3. #35063
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    WoD had Garrisons and updated player models.

    Shadowlands has updated character customisations as well as levelling revamps.
    Is leveling 'revamps' really a big feature though? 7.3.5. was a minor patch with leveling 'revamps' but didn't make a song and dance about it. That's not to say Shadowlands needs tons of features, but it's not exactly a big thing.

  4. #35064
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie081 View Post
    Is leveling 'revamps' really a big feature though? 7.3.5. was a minor patch with leveling 'revamps' but didn't make a song and dance about it. That's not to say Shadowlands needs tons of features, but it's not exactly a big thing.
    Heard plenty of people feel excited about "Leveling" being harder. I was to at one point but then I was like "Ok no this was a bad idea."
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  5. #35065
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Heard plenty of people feel excited about "Leveling" being harder. I was to at one point but then I was like "Ok no this was a bad idea."
    Eh, it's not that bad, when you can actually see boss abilities in low lvl dungeons.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  6. #35066
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Heard plenty of people feel excited about "Leveling" being harder. I was to at one point but then I was like "Ok no this was a bad idea."
    The changes in 7.3.5 would've worked really well if the levels were squished down as well. No one wanted leveling to be harder when there were 110 and soon to be 120 levels. 1-60 being harder I wouldn't have minded, but now we know 1-60 in Shadowlands is ~70% faster than 1-60 in BFA.

  7. #35067
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie081 View Post
    Is leveling 'revamps' really a big feature though? 7.3.5. was a minor patch with leveling 'revamps' but didn't make a song and dance about it. That's not to say Shadowlands needs tons of features, but it's not exactly a big thing.
    It is pretty big. I mean one of the worst things in current wow is that for many level ups you don't gain a thing. I mean you don't have enough abilities for 100 plus levels and talents only come every 15 levels. That leaves a lot of empty spaces. Sometiems 8 levels of empty space. Add to that the ability to get to Shadowlands content only with your favorite expac (probably WotLK or Pandaria as Legion sucks with the drained artefacts) and you can have a pretty sweet leveling experience if it isn't fucked up too bad. Or at least miles better than what we had in years.

  8. #35068
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I personally don't care. New class is a not a make or break for me.
    Well, I would like a tinker.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  9. #35069
    Not sure what the point is of discussing what's next if all one believes is that what's next is going to be shit.

    I guess misery loves company.

    SL has endgame systems, the open world systems, the Maw (aka the deadly zone), the tower, M+, Legendaries... And yet people still sit and go "Uuh it's reminding me of WoD!!"... Child, your memory is broken if that's the case.

    WoD would still have had its objective issues had they given a new race or new class. You can for one bet your ass that they wouldn't have done the revamp of all races in such a case.

    Better that they focus on fixing what ails the existing classes (as per massive feedback) than give a small fraction of the playerbase a new main.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2020-02-23 at 09:53 PM.

  10. #35070
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    Not sure what the point is of discussing what's next if all one believes is that what's next is going to be shit.

    I guess misery loves company.

    SL has endgame systems, the open world systems, the Maw (aka the deadly zone), the tower, M+, Legendaries... And yet people still sit and go "Uuh it's reminding me of WoD!!"... Child, your memory is broken if that's the case.

    WoD would still have had its objective issues had they given a new race or new class.
    Better that they focus on fixing what ails the existing classes than give a small fraction of the playerbase a new main.
    All teh complaining makes way more sense if you consider it in terms of someone talking about their ex who changed somehow, and they have to constantly remind themselves and other how terrible their ex is to distract.


    While it is absolutely correct that WoD had problems outside its lack of massive groundbreaking new systems. It is also absolutely true that not having a giant showpiece in the middle of the expansion is also harming the hype surrounding it. It is very easy to build hype around this new system called "warfronts" that come with revamped zones and high quality gear. It is harder to build hype around an expansion that is just doing whatever is the norm, no matter how great it ends up becoming.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  11. #35071
    We need some cheeky cryptic dev tweets that we can misunderstand and be like THEYRE TOTALLY SAYING ALPHA SOON to restart the hype train

  12. #35072
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    All teh complaining makes way more sense if you consider it in terms of someone talking about their ex who changed somehow, and they have to constantly remind themselves and other how terrible their ex is to distract.


    While it is absolutely correct that WoD had problems outside its lack of massive groundbreaking new systems. It is also absolutely true that not having a giant showpiece in the middle of the expansion is also harming the hype surrounding it. It is very easy to build hype around this new system called "warfronts" that come with revamped zones and high quality gear. It is harder to build hype around an expansion that is just doing whatever is the norm, no matter how great it ends up becoming.
    But warfronts didn't end up a very well received feature though.

    One of the showpieces, is the Maw. Another one, is the tower. A third, is the legendary system. A fourth, is the Covenant system. Then there's the cosmetic changes as well, bringing highly requested options to old races, and the leveling revamp (as in a level squish and changed paths system). They're also reworking the world quest system somewhat, but we're still to learn exactly how.

    If someone's not "seeing the hype", then they're either impossible to please, or dead set on disliking the expansion. And considering the usual suspects on these forums, my money's on the later.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I'm so excited for the Alpha, everything they're saying about their intentions is EXACTLY what I want from WoW. I just hope they keep to their word

    - - - Updated - - -



    I would say completely revamping all the core races is equal to a new bunch of races, we've now idea how deep they're going with it
    Exactly!

    I can't believe people whinge for new races when we just came off an expansion throwing them at us whether we like it or not.
    New customization options for the already existing races though... What little we saw at Blizzcon was already amazing.

    Throughout BfA there's been complaints that Allied races weren't simply made customization options of old races rather than new ones.
    SL gives that exact system, and now it's suddenly not worth hype.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Defend View Post
    We need some cheeky cryptic dev tweets that we can misunderstand and be like THEYRE TOTALLY SAYING ALPHA SOON to restart the hype train
    Towelliee said that "if he suddenly doesn't stream as regularly as he usually does, we should be hyped"...
    So now I'm literally going "HECK!" everytime he's starting a stream on time.

    Life's hard!

  13. #35073
    For me the main draw to Shadowlands are the cosmetics, and that it seems to be attempting to visually merge the best of Wrath with the best of TBC.

    I'm still working on the "No Alpha Club" signatures, but it'll take me a little longer than expected, making one for each Covenant. So far one is done, but the others need more work.
    Last edited by Caerule; 2020-02-23 at 11:16 PM.

  14. #35074
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    But warfronts didn't end up a very well received feature though.

    One of the showpieces, is the Maw. Another one, is the tower. A third, is the legendary system. A fourth, is the Covenant system. Then there's the cosmetic changes as well, bringing highly requested options to old races, and the leveling revamp (as in a level squish and changed paths system). They're also reworking the world quest system somewhat, but we're still to learn exactly how.

    If someone's not "seeing the hype", then they're either impossible to please, or dead set on disliking the expansion. And considering the usual suspects on these forums, my money's on the later.
    I deliberately mentioned Warfronts to underline how silly hyping things up can be.
    But regardless the point is that while Shadowlands certainly has a lot of small improvements, from outdoor content in the Maw, to legendary crafting. The only showpiece system is Torghast, which does not inspire even close to the same level of excitement Warfronts could get us from the pitch.
    Personally i think Torghast will be amazing, i very much sounds like the islands i hoped i would get when they first showed it.

    Bottom line is that hype is a very real thing in marketing, and lack of one can harm a product, no matter how good it ends up being. And Shadowlands does not have that massive showpiece that can get the casual player excited. Certainly a lot of exciting stuff for dedicated fans, but that could be true of everything.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  15. #35075
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    It's so nice to start seeing more and more familiar faces again!

    Now I must pull a Chickat and catch up on the convo lol
    Threads moving too slow atm for me to pull a me. Soon my child.

  16. #35076
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I deliberately mentioned Warfronts to underline how silly hyping things up can be.
    But regardless the point is that while Shadowlands certainly has a lot of small improvements, from outdoor content in the Maw, to legendary crafting. The only showpiece system is Torghast, which does not inspire even close to the same level of excitement Warfronts could get us from the pitch.
    Personally i think Torghast will be amazing, i very much sounds like the islands i hoped i would get when they first showed it.

    Bottom line is that hype is a very real thing in marketing, and lack of one can harm a product, no matter how good it ends up being. And Shadowlands does not have that massive showpiece that can get the casual player excited. Certainly a lot of exciting stuff for dedicated fans, but that could be true of everything.
    Leveling changes and more customization options is exactly what can get the casual player excited. And dedicated fans? Casual players are dedicated to this game, they make up the majority of us. Hell, according to these forums the game never draws new people anymore, so pandering to the dedicated fans seems pretty dang smart.

    You just wait until the datamining starts. Streams will be running, WoWhead will explode, these forums will have the fans talking over the negative Nancies. Then take into consideration that the official marketing machine isn't even up and running yet seeing as how we're still months and months away.

  17. #35077
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    Leveling changes and more customization options is exactly what can get the casual player excited. And dedicated fans? Casual players are dedicated to this game, they make up the majority of us. Hell, according to these forums the game never draws new people anymore, so pandering to the dedicated fans seems pretty dang smart.

    You just wait until the datamining starts. Streams will be running, WoWhead will explode, these forums will have the fans talking over the negative Nancies. Then take into consideration that the official marketing machine isn't even up and running yet seeing as how we're still months and months away.
    Let me try to rephrase it.

    Could you imagine a gaming news website writing a big exposé on the level squish, and for that article to feel as exciting to read about, and as likely to draw in players as an article on Garrisons, or Warfronts, or an old world revamp.

    I do not want ot try to imply that there won't be activity around Shadowlands regardless. New dungeons are always fun to speculate. There are no end to the fun one can have debating why the new mail transmog looks like shit. And the second we get mention of her, the countdown will begin to when we get a confirmed Sylvanas kill.
    But all of this won't necessarily draw in new or returning players, and that is what some might consider among the most important for the longevity of an MMO.

    Expecting negative posters on this forum to be even somewhat silenced seems to me like wish fulfillment. Though i suppose it is always nice to dream.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  18. #35078
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie081 View Post
    The changes in 7.3.5 would've worked really well if the levels were squished down as well. No one wanted leveling to be harder when there were 110 and soon to be 120 levels. 1-60 being harder I wouldn't have minded, but now we know 1-60 in Shadowlands is ~70% faster than 1-60 in BFA.
    To be clear, 1-60 in shadowlands is ~70% faster than 1-120 in BFA, not 1-60.
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena
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  19. #35079
    Bloodsail Admiral Sharby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    Not sure what the point is of discussing what's next if all one believes is that what's next is going to be shit.

    I guess misery loves company.

    SL has endgame systems, the open world systems, the Maw (aka the deadly zone), the tower, M+, Legendaries... And yet people still sit and go "Uuh it's reminding me of WoD!!"... Child, your memory is broken if that's the case.

    WoD would still have had its objective issues had they given a new race or new class. You can for one bet your ass that they wouldn't have done the revamp of all races in such a case.

    Better that they focus on fixing what ails the existing classes (as per massive feedback) than give a small fraction of the playerbase a new main.
    This childish simplifying of any sort of critical opinion you guys seem to do is so weird to me. Literally none of what you said has any basis on anything besides you projecting onto critics. Constructive discussion of the flaws and pros of the game gets immediately stifled when you do this I hope you know that.



    But anyways,

    WoD and ShL are similar in that they both have no new class nor a new race, customization options and updated models are good additions, but not as impactful as a brand new race or class. How you cope with this truth is on you. Furthermore, netiher are doing any significant class reworks that we saw in Legion nor do they appear to have any significant class mechanics or systems i.e Artifacts being put into place.

    The only thing stopping Blizzard from updating all the models and adding a new race at the same time is company interest, there was a long period between MoP and WoD, not to mention WoD had a ton of scrapped content. If they wanted to do both they could've and it isn't exactly a tall order to do so considering BFA saw Worgen and Goblin updates despite tons of new races being added.

    At this point the only 'objective' issues WoD has was that it was too barren, I believe its largely agreed that the content that did exist I.E Raids, were well received, but not enough to sustain playerbase, especially the casual playerbase, as a result it flopped hard.

    BFA saw similar results but with a different flavor of problem on the opposite side of the aisle. As stated earlier, a new class has the potential to draw in new players but also establish itself with a healthy population, Demon Hunters were added recently and are extremely well represented. Legion is also eveidence that significant class reworks can happen while also adding a new class, given that its already been officially stated that they aren't doing Legion levels of class balancing, its not surprising people see ShL and think its barebones.

    ---


    Alpha may completely flip this on its head, but even still, if there are in fact giant surprises waiting in ShL, Blizzard has nobody else to blame for this collective doubt but themselves for not at least teasing it during its formal announcement.
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  20. #35080
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    This childish simplifying of any sort of critical opinion you guys seem to do is so weird to me. Literally none of what you said has any basis on anything besides you projecting onto critics. Constructive discussion of the flaws and pros of the game gets immediately stifled when you do this I hope you know that.

    You sorely overestimate how MMO-Champion tends to be incredibly cynical for its own sake with not much to back it up other then patterns. Not to mention the same people coming back over and over just to be cynical. There comes a point where you're basically being a jerk, if you're so cynical about the game, why even bother being here?
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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