Should Lor'themar stand up for the imprisoned blood elves?

[Fetus Rex]

*scratches head* You might want to study up on history. The willing followers of genocidal rulers are always punished too. No matter if their ruler was rightful or not. Google "Nuremberg Trials" for one example.

Especially when you should know better after going through that shit before with a different ruler, you have no one to blame but yourself for being a sheep. The "I only did what I was told" -card only works so many times before people realize you WANTED to commit those crimes and are now just trying to evade your punishment.

The Banshee loyalists have shown that they are unrepentent and stuck to the psychopathic zombie even after many loyal and reasonable people turned against her, they were given the chance to turn away and did not. Now they face the consequences. The only reason why the player loyalists are not imprisoned as well is game mechanics.

Whyever would Lor'themar raise a finger for these people?

I have studied it pretty well. That's why Nuremberg Hoax doesn't interest me at all.

It doesn't matter whether one wants to commit 'crimes' or not as long as they are part of the order.

Lor'themar should off himself. He is a double traitor.

Infracted.

[Myzou]

He didn't confess anything. He said crap to Jaina true, but all the actually did wrong, was looking the other way when the Garrosh loyalists moved the Bell through Dalaran and threatened him with violence. His actual fault was reacting this stupid as possible when Jaina demanded answers. All the rest of the wrongdoings that day is on Vereesa and her goons going full rain of steel, player included when they're ordered to round up shopkeepers and shoot them down.

He admitted fault. Did you even do the Fire Mage Artifact quest? When the council asked why he would help them, he said he wanted to atone for what he did in the past, as it was the Sunreavers who did things.

That's called admitting fault. Admitting fault doesn't mean him explicitly statingg "I HELPED THE SUNREAVERS GET THE MANA BOMB THAT DESTROYED THERAMORE." Vague statements also are admitting fault.

If you ask someone that murdered someone if they murdered them and they say to the person's family "I'm looking for forgiveness for the bad thing I did." You're going to automatically assume they are confessing.

Just because it won't stand up in court doesn't make it any less of a confession. THis is WoW, not a courtroom.

[Shiza]

I can't speak to Liadrin, since I don't recall her doing anything beyond shouting "Darkness cannot abide the Light!" every ten seconds in the Stromgarde warfront, but Rexxar was vocal about his disatisfaction with Sylvanas before Baine and Zelling's escapade, during the second part of the Horde War Campaign. Also, I'm not sure why attacking the Alliance was considered criminal since the groups were at war. It was when her methods started getting more questionable that they rebelled, such as Sylvanas' collaboration with ousted Alliance nobles or her desire to mindwarp Forsaken into kamikaze minions. Raising sentient dead to send them into the heart of Alliance territory on suicide missions and then not caring when they get executed after. Valtrois and Rexxar's conversations after stealing guard uniforms from the Ashvane foundry shows that the Horde was turning against her even before Baine spoke up.

The entire war started by commiting a genocide through fire, which is a by far more fucked up and cruel method of killing an entire people than anything done in real life, so I would argue that it is literally impossible that the Hordes actions get any more questionable. The entire conflict started with the most brutal and fucked up thing the Horde has ever done, possibly even beating their actions back when it was a tool of the burning legion.

[Aresk]

The entire war started by commiting a genocide through fire, which is a by far more fucked up and cruel method of killing an entire people than anything done in real life, so I would argue that it is literally impossible that the Hordes actions get any more questionable. The entire conflict started with the most brutal and fucked up thing the Horde has ever done, possibly even beating their actions back when it was a tool of the burning legion.

At least they didn't use the burned remains of Teldrassil to build infrastructure for their war machine? And I think torturing your own troops to turn them into assassins to murder their families is a little more questionable than deploying fire against enemy buildings.

[Shiza]

At least they didn't use the burned remains of Teldrassil to build infrastructure for their war machine? And I think torturing your own troops to turn them into assassins to murder their families is a little more questionable than deploying fire against enemy buildings.

I'm pretty sure a full scale genocide through burning the victims alive is worse.

[StillMcfuu]

It's ridiculous he ever supported her, you'd think the Blood Elves of all people would take issue with an evil, maniacal undead force rampaging around destroying cities

It's crazy that he would support a blood elf who died defending her city, who was the only one there for the city, even after the city turned her away years earlier. It's absolutely unbelievable.

Really the situation makes Lorthemar look a bit like an Uncle Tom. But I believe the concept of Sylvanas Loyalists are that they are essentially internal terrorists for the horde.

[Scottyjscizzle]

I saw orcs leading Sylvanas loyalists in chains in Orgrimmar, and I noticed some of them were blood elf. It seemed ... out of place. I had a sense that if anyone should be handling Belf dissidents or Sylvanas loyalists, it should be the blood elves. Lor'themar should be insisting they take their own and punish them according to their own customs.

Let's also bear in mind that Lor'themar himself switched loyalties near the end, and supposedly more and more were joining the rebels.. who's to say some of those on the other side of Orgrimmar, would not have joined later?

Also do we know what qualifies as a Sylvanas loyalist exactly? I assume not everyone who was on her side of the wall at the confrontation with Saurfang outside Orgrimmar is being punished.

Why would they give anyone their own people, this was a Horde dispute, and should be handled as the Horde. Otherwise just dissolve the damn thing already.
Also "Who knows if they would have joined later!!" is entirely irrelevant, they didn't swap sides, they stayed with a genocidal banshee who treated her people as fodder, they deserve their fates.

[Magistrate]

I really doubt Lor'themar would be sympathetic with dissidents of his own race that still choose to worship Sylvanas's ideology when it's so similar to Arthas who annihilated almost his entire race. It was a different story when she was played more ambiguously for several expansions. It's too explicit now.

[StillMcfuu]

Yes. Because she's the only one that fought for Silvermoon. That's the biggest problem with her character, how many people died and were risen by Arthas? How many people have lost their home? That justifies what she did? No. Lor'themar eventually realises this, but it took him too long, and people suffered because of it

You are subverting her story.

She led the defense of the city, people survived because of how long she delayed Arthas.
After she returned to (un)life the city scorned her away.
Her actions as the Banshee helped clear the area surrounding Silvermoon so it wasn't just an undead waste land.
Later when she was leading the forsaken, Silvermoon turned her away yet again.
She continued to aid the city by clearing the scourge from the area.
When the city needed her help and was turned away by others (the alliance), she solely, came to their aid.

And that's ignoring her service to the city in life...

Many blood elves owe her their lives.

On to the other question, does that justify "what she did". And I use quotes on purpose, because it's the most overblown bunch of horse shit people hang on to. She burned Teldrassil, an enemy fortification, and killed a couple of Priestess of Elune who foolishly stayed behind. It's war, she wanted the land, she took the land. It wasn't genocide, she wasn't kill the people in the area because they are of a certain race. She killed them because they stood in opposition to her.

But ultimately the story demanded she be in service to an old god or whatever is going on that really is boring to even pay attention to anymore.

As the story dictates there is a "breaking point" where Lor'themar is justified in not supporting Sylvanas. Which is fine, it's such a convuluted situation it's not worth getting into.

But does Lor'themar, as the Blood Elf leader, owe more to Sylvanas and really the loyalists that are the subject of this thread. Absolutely. But really if this were better written, everyone that is continuing to be "in charge" are responsible. The way faction leaders are written is they support one side until it's more convenient to not support that side. That's the main take away from BFA if anyone was looking for one.

[Ardenaso]

Yes. Because she's the only one that fought for Silvermoon. That's the biggest problem with her character, how many people died and were risen by Arthas? How many people have lost their home? That justifies what she did? No. Lor'themar eventually realises this, but it took him too long, and people suffered because of it

Friendly reminder Sylvanas had all the chance to one shot Arthas but refused because of course pride and glory are more important than actually taking out the enemy

[Aucald]

Friendly reminder Sylvanas had all the chance to one shot Arthas but refused because of course pride and glory are more important than actually taking out the enemy

--snip ---

The presumption there would be that a surprise-attack on Arthas would be successful - and that is doubtful given the huge disparity in power between the invading Scourge forces led by Arthas and the paucity of the defenders. More likely a surprise attack would've only spared Sylvanas the torment that awaited her after she had annoyed Arthas to his wit's end.

[Feanoro]

The presumption there would be that a surprise-attack on Arthas would be successful - and that is doubtful given the huge disparity in power between the invading Scourge forces led by Arthas and the paucity of the defenders. More likely a surprise attack would've only spared Sylvanas the torment that awaited her after she had annoyed Arthas to his wit's end.

Forgot about the paralysis arrow incident? Instead of just finishing him, she had to twirl her mustache.

[Verdugo]

Friendly reminder Sylvanas had all the chance to one shot Arthas but refused because of course pride and glory are more important than actually taking out the enemy

"honor forbade it"

Oh would you look at that.

[Aucald]

Forgot about the paralysis arrow incident? Instead of just finishing him, she had to twirl her mustache.

That was when a Death Knight Arthas was already weakened by the Lich King's failing state (hence the reason Sylvanas was able to break free from his control to begin with) - during the invasion of Quel'Thalas he was at full strength, empowered by the Lich King and with the full might of the Scourge behind him. I think it's unlikely a paralysis arrow would've prevailed in this case.

[Florena]

Do you think probably becuase originally Sylvanas was written to be right about all her actions, the overwhelming player negativity altered the storyline

I doubt it. The original story on the PTR funneled players into supporting Saurfang when it came onto the PTR. The half baked 'Loyalist' story was tacked on due to horde players not wanting to betray her. I'd count that as strong evidence of her not being intended to be right. And as early as A Good War you get Sylvanas' internal thoughts acknowledging her 'true goal' that other forces in the world would oppose. I think this was poorly handled, but with her intended to be the baddie from the start.

[Evilfish]

I doubt it. The original story on the PTR funneled players into supporting Saurfang when it came onto the PTR. The half baked 'Loyalist' story was tacked on due to horde players not wanting to betray her. I'd count that as strong evidence of her not being intended to be right. And as early as A Good War you get Sylvanas' internal thoughts acknowledging her 'true goal' that other forces in the world would oppose. I think this was poorly handled, but with her intended to be the baddie from the start.

From the start? She has been around since Warcraft III. People liked her then and they still like her now. They only started nailing her to a cross since Golden came around to act as proof that Blizzard really does care for the Alliance. Until then it has been mostly about her being a separate kind of hero that didn't follow the same douchebag formula but was still likable and that formula worked so well they had to make up a story line so her fans might stay loyal to her. They only figured that out when Golden and her man-slaves started bashing the Sylvanas character with the villain bat and instead of everyone cheering... the bat broke. It's amazing how much bad publicity they sunk in this character and it's still being held above the proverbial water by her fanbase.

Also since this was inevitably derailed to another Sylvanas bashing thread, let me try to stick on subject - in order for Lor'themar to stand up for anything he'd need a spine, which he does not have.

[Florena]

From the start? She has been around since Warcraft III. People liked her then and they still like her now. They only started nailing her to a cross since Golden came around to act as proof that Blizzard really does care for the Alliance. Until then it has been mostly about her being a separate kind of hero that didn't follow the same douchebag formula but was still likable and that formula worked so well they had to make up a story line so her fans might stay loyal to her. They only figured that out when Golden and her man-slaves started bashing the Sylvanas character with the villain bat and instead of everyone cheering... the bat broke. It's amazing how much bad publicity they sunk in this character and it's still being held above the proverbial water by her fanbase.

Also since this was inevitably derailed to another Sylvanas bashing thread, let me try to stick on subject - in order for Lor'themar to stand up for anything he'd need a spine, which he does not have.

From the start of BFA to be clear. I don't mean all the way back to WC3, though they may have been planning this since Legion when she was put on the throne.

[Varodoc]

From the start? She has been around since Warcraft III. People liked her then and they still like her now. They only started nailing her to a cross since Golden came around to act as proof that Blizzard really does care for the Alliance. Until then it has been mostly about her being a separate kind of hero that didn't follow the same douchebag formula but was still likable and that formula worked so well they had to make up a story line so her fans might stay loyal to her. They only figured that out when Golden and her man-slaves started bashing the Sylvanas character with the villain bat and instead of everyone cheering... the bat broke. It's amazing how much bad publicity they sunk in this character and it's still being held above the proverbial water by her fanbase.

Also since this was inevitably derailed to another Sylvanas bashing thread, let me try to stick on subject - in order for Lor'themar to stand up for anything he'd need a spine, which he does not have.

She has been a villain since Classic. Back then, she conducted revolting experiments on the living to develop a plague that would scour all life from Azeroth, and ordered Varimathras to wipe out the (and I quote) "human infestation" in Hillsbrad, which was mostly inhabited by refugees and farmers. In WC3 she was an anti-hero at best.

[nnelson54]

Given how Afrasiabi is on record confirming that Garrosh in the Stonetalon questline (i.e. the one redeeming moment of the character in the entirety of Cataclysm that is always the get go argument for anyone trying to push the idea that Garrosh was meant to go another route) written by him was a mistake because he didn't check with Kosak what Kosak's direction for the character was in Cata (and apparently also slept through all the meetings in which that direction was made), that rumor is 100% not true whatsoever.

That doesn't hold water at all. It's not like this is some game where things are just released without a system of checks. That moment had to be animated, the quest had to be implemented, and it even had voice work(if I remember correctly... I swear Garrosh and the General were voiced during that). It was the culmination of the zone's entire quest chain. That really just sounds like one employee taking the blame for Blizzard making a huge mistake to placate the players that pointed out how little sense it made.

[Jastall]

That doesn't hold water at all. It's not like this is some game where things are just released without a system of checks. That moment had to be animated, the quest had to be implemented, and it even had voice work(if I remember correctly... I swear Garrosh and the General were voiced during that). It was the culmination of the zone's entire quest chain. That really just sounds like one employee taking the blame for Blizzard making a huge mistake to placate the players that pointed out how little sense it made.

Yeah, I never thought that made any sense either. It was one of the few end-of-zone questlines to have unique voice acting, animations, and a proper conclusion to the story arc that advanced the development of a flagship character. It's kind of hard for me to believe that literally only Afriasabi had any sort of oversight in Stonetalon's story, given that it was one of the most extensively retooled zones story-wise in Cataclysm alongside Silverpine Forest, Azshara and the Plaguelands.

Then again, Cataclysm's development was an infamous mess, so maybe Blizzard was indeed stretched so thin that these things would slip, given that they were redoing so many zones plus developing the max-level ones simultaneously.