Is there any chance we could do away with the timer in M+? Alot of us don't like it.

[Babadoo]

The american mentality of Blizzard - part of the rat race - wont allow this.

[Onikaroshi]

But there already isn't an expectation to run it on time unless you are planning on pushing, which should be established at the start of the instance anyhow, especially if one is pugging.

You'll never get through to them, there's a NINETY MINUTE timer in FFXIV dungeons and people still bitch about it, it's literally just there so the instance will shut down if someone afks in it.

[Musta]

People seem to view the timer as just a pacemaker, but it also serves as a safety check on the key. The reality is that generally if your group cannot complete a key in time, the content is too difficult for you and/or your group is undergeared. If the timer didn't exists yet you could still finish a key in a reasonable amount of time, then your group's issue is likely execution and not the difficulty/timer. It's also a service in some ways to pugs, as you'd find the key completion rate drop and toxicity exacerbated to even higher levels if you could easily obtain high level keys yet not have the skill/gear to clear them in a timely fashion.

All that being said, I'm not really a fan of r.io, but it's mostly because people tend to not use it correctly and it's reliance on a 3rd party add-on. I do think there's some quality of life things that could be done to M+ in general to make things a bit easier, such as being able to lower keys in a more effective manner than constantly resetting the instance. I'd also be a fan of bringing back the Bwonsamdi buff to some degree, as it only helps you complete a key instead of push a key.

i dont like time trials, its just simple as that.

[Hinastorm]

But I don't understand, this already exists.



If you fail to time a dungeon it doesn't matter how long you take after the fact someone in the group is still guaranteed loot. If you are running dungeons with friends then you all should be on the same level of communication and have a mutual understanding that you're going for completion, not time.


The timer only exists to make the key go up or down a level, iirc you get more loot for timing, but you don't get no loot for not timing. So I don't see why this warrants a separate mode.

Try filling a pug group telling them this is the plan. It doesn't work.

I have done this with guildy's, and we sure enjoyed it way more than timer stress simulator.

[Sharby]

Try filling a pug group telling them this is the plan. It doesn't work.

I have done this with guildy's, and we sure enjoyed it way more than timer stress simulator.

I have done it before, so I cannot relate.


A lot of people will do a key 15 or above timed or not just for the fact that it gives the maximum gear level in the weekly chest.



The only reason to do above a 15 is for bragging rights, targeting 475 azerite, or pushing i.o. None of which matters to the majority.

[Awyee]

Try filling a pug group telling them this is the plan. It doesn't work.

Wrong. There are plenty of groups "going for completion" in the group finder. I don't see why this isn't the end of it.

This thread seems to be people wanting entry into the hard content without first proving they have the ability to unlock said hard content.

[Razion]

I don't think just the option is enough. I think Mists Challenge Modes had a better grasp on the situation: Timers as a one-time thing you did for some pile of more superficial rewards like achievements, titles, pets, mounts, and cosmetic appearances was at a much sweeter spot. People didn't "have" to do them if they didn't want to, but they could if they wanted some cool stuff. As someone who doesn't like to do timers I don't like feeling forced to do so.

[Magnagarde]

That is how it already is; no matter how late you arrive at the end, you still get loot. The only difference between what you propose and how things stand is that you want to be able to upgrade a key without beating the timer, which in itself defeats the point and purpose of M+. Time is an essential component with which M+ execution is evaluated. If that were to happen, then the rewards should be nerfed drastically to match the amount of effort poured into M+ completion; the effort is much bigger with a timer to beat.

M+ a challenge that always slips some rewards your way, while also scaling the number and quality of awards depending on your performance and difficulty. Taking the timer out, while keeping the rewards as they are, would definitely take away from the system.

[Steelcryo]

That's only a true statement for people incapable of forming sentences in a language shared by other players in a group. Social expectations (like timing the key) are entirely constructed concepts and can be upheld or dismissed with a basic level of communication and common sense. To say anything else is delusional and deflects from the true insecurity and frustration with challenges in the game.

The timer isnt the scary thing. The real reason people blame the timer for their problems is because they are too ashamed to admit that they dont want to get good enough to clear keys.

And before anyone bothers, no, this isnt me telling people to get gud or whatever idiot phrase is common these days. I just prefer it if people were honest, and this is a very dishonest thread.

For someone that likes to try and sound clever in their replies, you really don't have a grasp of what you're talking about. The timer IS the scary thing and it has nothing to do with skill.

For the majority of players, it boils down to human psychology. Even if you all agree to ignore the timer, there's still that little voice in peoples heads that dislikes being told they've failed at something, even if they weren't aiming for it in the first place. Sure, there are some people that don't have that, but most people do. So seeing the timer run out still feels like a failure, even if you weren't aiming to clear it in the first place. It's an additional little stress that really doesn't need to be there.

The whole thing could easily be solved by adding a checkbox to the key when you put it in the pedestal. "Do you want to do a timed run?" If you check yes, you get the timer, the chance of bonus loot and key upgrades. If you check no, you get the difficulty, but without the timer and only the chance of one chest (which is what you get if you fail the timer anyway).

Honestly, from a development point of view, it wouldn't be that hard, all the mechanics exist to do it and it would provide more challenging, but enjoyable content for a lot of players.

[ONCHEhap]

Honestly,if mythic + was harder,but non-timed,I'd probably actually enjoy them.

I care more about actual,raw challenge than artificial stuff propped up by an arbitrary clock.

Give me 4 hour long,extra hard dungeons rather than timed stuff where the difficulty is entierely related to the fact there's a clock to beat

[kabshiel]

You’d have to add enrage timers to all the trash and bosses to keep people from running them with just tanks and healers.

[Jastall]

If you fail a timer, it's for two reasons; either your execution was very lacking (and we're talking 10+ deaths, or hugely overpulling), or your DPS is sub-par for the content. Often both. Timers serve the same purpose as Enrage does in raids, it stops overly cheesy or time-consuming tactics dead in their tracks and keeps a semblance of structure in the whole mess.

You still get loot when failing the timer, and I always see groups going for completion in the finder. The gameplay experience people want exists. It's not the most rewarding, but it shouldn't be given that a dungeon without timer has no real failure state beyond giving up because you're sick of it.

[Darkeon]

The rush mentality, from over-pulling, using all sorts of not-so-obvious shortcuts and scummy strategies, is what stops me from running more PUGs as a tank. I would rather, instead, do less runs but go with a team I'm familiar with. Less headaches that way.

[Sharby]

You are completely missing the point of this thread. People don't want to FAIL the run. People want a non-timed version of the key system where they can take their time to strategize, but STILL "win" the run and upgrade their key.

Look at ranked versus non-ranked PvP. Just because you're not playing in a rated BG doesn't mean you can't go up against a premade group that's really challenging.

When you put your key in the slot, it pops up a question if your group is ready. There isn't any reason it couldn't pop up a "timed/non-timed" confirmation box to let you choose. Your non-timed runs wouldn't count toward your rankings or toward the weekly loot chest the same way that timed runs would.

Basically, just like LFR, people are asking for more things to do to keep them playing which don't affect your ability to do the things you enjoy.

Let me ask you this.



How does this option differ from people wanting to do M+ with less than five people? There are people who also have social challenges that deter them from doing group content, but they still want the challenge and rewards that M+ gives.


These two scenarios are essentially the same. You can still take as long as you want in an M+ key and still get loot at the end, you still win, the dungeon is still complete and rewards are given out.

Letting you upgrade your key without a timer would lead to unique problems, for example, at what point does the loot for non-timed runs stop scaling? I'm fairly certain people would start doing +20's and probably +30's by virtue of pulling one enemy at a time, they would have to rework scaling a lot to balance it. Do they get the same rewards as those who time 18's?

Also the way in which the problem is being presented doesn't quite make sense, LFR for example exists because it allows players to queue for raids and requires no experience and a minimal amount of coordination.


This solves the problem of players not having time to dedicate to learning an encounter or finding a raiding group that works for them.



Whereas,


The issue at hand is a problem because of what exactly? Personal feelings about missing a timer that doesn't affect rewards or weeklies? I'm all for adding options, but in my opinion, this isn't an area where this one should exist.

[BigToast]

No

/thread

Fuck off

[Lucetia]

It just promotes rush rush rush gameplay, and sets up pugs for toxicity.

Maybe just add an option to run them with one chest at the end, without a timer? That keeps everyone happy.

Eh I use to think it was bad too, but after diving into them it's not that bad. If you play the dungeon normally and go slow at it you can still time it and have spare left over.

You can also still finish the dungeon without a timer and get your +X reward in the weekly chest. So in a sense it kind of does that already. I've even seen some groups listed "Just completing dungeon" and others that mention pushing. So you can find some the way you want or find like minded individuals as well.

Out of the 10's I've ran so far (about 8) only one or two had that one person who felt the need to pull for me (tank) and make it go faster than it should.

[Yunaqt]

But you can and people did? the key just doesn't go further up.

I remember seeing screenshots of people spending 7hrs in Shrine +10 early on with 400 odd wipes for their chest.

[rhorle]

I'm not suggesting taking away current m+, just give us an option to do, say, a +7, without a timer on it, with a predictable reward at the end.

But why can't you do that now? Why can't you run a +7 and fail the timer and still get the loot at the end?

[Sharby]

Why should the loot stop scaling? Complexity-Limit had to wipe hundreds of times to complete their Mythic raid. There was no timer on the raid, and they got the max-level loot at the end. Why does Mythic+ need a timer? It just needs to be difficult.

Few things.


First and foremost as others have pointed out raid encounters have an enrage. Very few bosses in M+ have this mechanic. Why does enrage exist? To prevent stalling, cheesy gameplay such as all tanks and healers. But also to give DPS a reason to exist.


Secondly you still do get max level loot at the end for completing the dungeon regardless if it was timed or not. As stated earlier the timer only exists to raise the key level. And after 15, the loot power does not change, rendering pushing irrelevant unless for reasons I stated above.

Thirdly, if you could raise your key level without timing there would be zero reason to bother timing a key for the majority of players, which would go against a fundamental design of M+.

[Yunaqt]

Their key didn't upgrade at the end.

But they still got end of run & end of week loot for it, that seems pretty good considering. After the run they just get a slightly lower key, not like it depletes like it used to and unable to use the key for loot.