your wishes for subtlety rogues in shadow lands.

[ymirsson]

It's so very controversial that Subtlety should be designed for Shoegazing [/B]

fixed that for you.

[shoegazing]

fixed that for you.

Because I'm the only person in the world that cares about restoring traditional Subtlety Rogue gameplay.

NOBODY dislikes the hamfisted, gaudy, spec fantasy, "this has nothing to do with the character you've played since 2005" trashcan edition.

It's super popular as proven by the spec's high popularity currently. LOL

[ymirsson]

Because I'm the only person in the world that cares about restoring traditional Subtlety Rogue gameplay.

NOBODY dislikes the hamfisted, gaudy, spec fantasy, "this has nothing to do with the character you've played since 2005" trashcan edition.

It's super popular as proven by the spec's high popularity currently. LOL

Yeah, as proven by the ever soaring popularity of the third spec during vanilla and BC, your vision is obviously superior.
And also i wonder, were are the legions of ever faithful sub rogues decrying the trashcan edition? I only ever see you.

[shoegazing]

Yeah, as proven by the ever soaring popularity of the third spec during vanilla and BC, your vision is obviously superior.

(pssst, Cata, MoP, and WoD are my favorite versions of Subtlety Rogue)

And also i wonder, were are the legions of ever faithful sub rogues decrying the trashcan edition? I only ever see you.

It's an extremely common opinion that Blizzard did Subtlety dirty with Legion and the old design was far better. It's true that few others are as performative about it as I am.

For anyone who feels as strongly about it as I do, these changes completely ruined any possibility of playing the game without constantly being aware of the misery of an abhorrent ruined spec. You can't simply turn off your awareness of how terrible it is. It permeates, encompasses, and ruins all things. Many of these people have understandably stopped playing.

I have stopped playing retail entirely as well. I am playing classic for a change of pace. I am not a classic zealot but I do prefer it to retail, and I've found the challenge of multiboxing a 5man team (warr/rogue/mage/warlock/hpala) through old dungeons has been extremely fun and rewarding.

If Shadowlands makes favorable design changes for Subtlety, I'll start playing retail again. If it doesn't, I'll play classic until it plays itself out.

[Wangming]

wow, I actually just got an infraction for this:



There was a question as the topic of the thread. I answered it with my personal opinion. There was even a follow up from me when somebody asked me about it. I was polite and respectful. And I answered the question concisely and with exactly what my wishes are for sub.

And yea, I'm not supposed to comment on infractions - but then, how about you (Coldkil) figure out when you should actually be infracting.

PS - Knock yourself out and go ahead and infract again, or may as well ban me at this point since the first infraction was so off point.
Cheers

Infract away, but I agree. Three dual wielding melee DPS specs based on combo points is just lazy. An evasion tank would work well. And what better spec to turn it into than subtlety?
Make it a ninja tank with vanishing powder mirror images, dodging and all sorts of evil nasty tricks. Please.

[shoegazing]

Infract away, but I agree. Three dual wielding melee DPS specs based on combo points is just lazy. An evasion tank would work well. And what better spec to turn it into than subtlety?
Make it a ninja tank with vanishing powder mirror images, dodging and all sorts of evil nasty tricks. Please.

"Let's take somebody's spec that they've played for 15 years and change it from a dps spec to a tank spec, that's sure to work out well."

[ymirsson]

"Let's take somebody's spec that they've played for 15 years and change it from a dps spec to a tank spec, that's sure to work out well."

But don't mind that 9 of those years were mediocre to "completely ruined", just do as shoegazing says.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

There's only a few issues IMHO:

AoE is a problem, Sub has an intended mechanic of AoE giving a big bonus to single target focus with meagre actual AoE. This is an okay system, but it could stand a redesign to make it feel more rewarding.

The dance/symbols stuff isn't working so great. Again, an okay system but the way it's working right now is clunky and challenging to understand well enough to make use of. Extremely high skill players can make use of it and do pretty well, but that same skill applied to another spec would probably dramatically outperform it. That's a problem for sure.

First off, Shuriken Storm should get a brief cooldown to be in line with something like Lightning Crash for Enhancement Shaman, say 3-10 seconds, hits up to 5 targets (to limit the spec to only being okay at AoE) and applies a 'Shuriken' debuff to anyone who takes damage, and grants a combo point for EACH target hit. Taking Deeper Strat would launch 6 shurikens and reward up to 6 CP.

Crimson Tempest baseline, larger AoE field, attach shadowy chains to each of your Shuriken Debuffs and tear the Shurikens out of their victims, inflicting shadow damage and a bleed on each one, with bleed duration based on CP. So at 2 targets, Storm is still a reasonable way to get cleave damage, but you'll be refreshing more often, where at 5 + targets, you can space these out a little better and get Energy savings for using your AoE when it is most effective.

Shadow Dance should be a true stealth, end of story. Symbols of Death should just go away, and Shadow Dance should have the bonuses baked in. Really this whole system should boil down to 'Hit Shadow Dance at high resources, to spend them on extra damage' and 'Pool Shadow Dance opportunities' for when burst damage is really needed. Because the spec is called "Subtlety", it should be about building up over time at a steady rate, and unleashing damage at chosen intervals.

[Wangming]

"Let's take somebody's spec that they've played for 15 years and change it from a dps spec to a tank spec, that's sure to work out well."

Well what you outlined at the top of the page is, by your own admission, completely indistinguishable from the base rogue spec save for a single cooldown. I don't think that is how specs should be designed. Granted, I'm not a game developer.

[shoegazing]

But don't mind that 9 of those years were mediocre to "completely ruined", just do as shoegazing says.

You are once again putting words into my mouth that I never said. I never called classic or TBC or WotLK Subtlety mediocre. They were groundbreaking for their time and I loved each one of them. But that development direction of Subtlety reached its peak in Cata, MoP, and WoD. Legion has since demolished all progress and taken us in a completely different direction with predictably terrible results.

Really this whole system should boil down to 'Hit Shadow Dance at high resources, to spend them on extra damage' and 'Pool Shadow Dance opportunities' for when burst damage is really needed. Because the spec is called "Subtlety", it should be about building up over time at a steady rate, and unleashing damage at chosen intervals.

This is type of cycle is exactly what made the old Find Weakness playstyle so interesting and cool, except it was much better than what you have described, because you also had core rogue tools and concepts to fall back outside of the burst phase, giving a playstyle that both felt very connected to the greater Rogue class but also totally unique to Subtlety in the way that Find Weakness interacts with the core Rogue mechanics of the energy bar (pooling) and openers from Stealth/Dance.

Well what you outlined at the top of the page is, by your own admission, completely indistinguishable from the base rogue spec save for a single cooldown. I don't think that is how specs should be designed. Granted, I'm not a game developer.

You couldn't be more wrong, as my above paragraph demonstrates.

[Naiattavain]

You are once again putting words into my mouth that I never said. I never called classic or TBC or WotLK Subtlety mediocre. They were groundbreaking for their time and I loved each one of them. But that development direction of Subtlety reached its peak in Cata, MoP, and WoD. Legion has since demolished all progress and taken us in a completely different direction with predictably terrible results.



This is type of cycle is exactly what made the old Find Weakness playstyle so interesting and cool, except it was much better than what you have described, because you also had core rogue tools and concepts to fall back outside of the burst phase, giving a playstyle that both felt very connected to the greater Rogue class but also totally unique to Subtlety in the way that Find Weakness interacts with the core Rogue mechanics of the energy bar (pooling) and openers from Stealth/Dance.



You couldn't be more wrong, as my above paragraph demonstrates.

i agree with shoe gazing he knows what to do to keep blizzard afloat. but honest if blizzard can't figure this out they are dumb. 2 expacs in a row of blizzard being stupid with their intellectual property.... that is 10/10 fail there. they don't deserve any money if they can't deliver a product that works. chris metzen knew all to well about this..

[ymirsson]

i agree with shoe gazing he knows what to do to keep blizzard afloat.

Im not even surprised about this, it all makes perfect sense. When we add shoegazing's and proper's delusions, we will come full circle and end up at sensible! Not in this particular dimension mind you.

[WowClassic]

Revert to WoD

In fact just revert everything Rogue to WoD

[Naiattavain]

Revert to WoD

In fact just revert everything Rogue to WoD

revert back to Wod builds.

I remember the rogue class being hard to learn all three specs that how i remember it. had a lot of fun in pvp during wod.

[shoegazing]

Revert to WoD

Almost everything I've ever asked for in Subtlety Rogue design is encompassed by those three words ^^

The spec was an awesome version of itself in WoD. It wasn't 100% perfect but had many great things going for it and was beloved in PvP and PvE. It had strong Rogue class identity, while also being completely unique among 36 specs in the game for the Find Weakness / Shadow Dance playstyle.

Im not even surprised about this, it all makes perfect sense. When we add shoegazing's and proper's delusions, we will come full circle and end up at sensible! Not in this particular dimension mind you.

You really have nothing at all to say about the topic of this thread, do you? It's honestly sad that all you do here is snipe at me without ever making a substantive statement about Subtlety Rogue.

Why don't you share what is your vision what Subtlety Rogue should be going forward, and why, or state why my idea about restoring the masterpiece it once was is so misguided?

If you can't or don't care to, then simply leave. You have added nothing to this conversation, it's almost as if derailing the thread to get it locked and shut down is your entire goal.

[Volatilis]

Almost everything I've ever asked for in Subtlety Rogue design is encompassed by those three words ^^

The spec was an awesome version of itself in WoD. It wasn't 100% perfect but had many great things going for it and was beloved in PvP and PvE. It had strong Rogue class identity, while also being completely unique among 36 specs in the game for the Find Weakness / Shadow Dance playstyle.



You really have nothing at all to say about the topic of this thread, do you? It's honestly sad that all you do here is snipe at me without ever making a substantive statement about Subtlety Rogue.

Why don't you share what is your vision what Subtlety Rogue should be going forward, and why, or state why my idea about restoring the masterpiece it once was is so misguided?

If you can't or don't care to, then simply leave. You have added nothing to this conversation, it's almost as if derailing the thread to get it locked and shut down is your entire goal.

While Coldkil is far from what I'd call a good mod, nearly all rogue threads you make or post in devolves into "Sub is PVP spec only, everyone else gtfo".

And WoW main focus is PVE so the idea of pvp only specs is an outdated one no one matter how much you kick and scream about it.

You pretend to what a roll back to WoD/ <insert expansion here> so us scrubs can still enjoy the PVE side of it but really you just want PVP control back for the spec with reliable burst for kill windows.

[deenman]

Sub should just be removed. Replace it with a "bard" spec, which would be a healer and support role. If Blizzard isn't going to make a proper bard class on its own, having it be a rogue spec is the next best option. They really should do something with all the 3x dps spec classes to give them some more options anyways. Mage and hunter also need one of their specs pruned and turned into another role.

Infracted.

oh man I would love an actual support class,but dont think it can fit in rogue,it should be like demon hunter, a 2 spec class,a support bard with big buffs or whatever,and a traditional healing spec

[AlmightyGerkin]

Haven't seen subtlety for awhile completely forgot rogues had a third spec.

[shoegazing]

While Coldkil is far from what I'd call a good mod, nearly all rogue threads you make or post in devolves into "Sub is PVP spec only, everyone else gtfo".

Nonsense!

What I have consistently argued is that Subtlety has been a PvP spec from the beginning, so changes to it should never have disrupted the PvP playstyle for the PvP player base.

I do not care whether or not improvements are made to Subtlety PvE, as long as they are done in a way that does not disrupt the existing PvP playstyle. Legion has failed that test dramatically.

But I have never once stated that Subtlety should be a PvP only spec. Improve your reading comprehension.

oh man I would love an actual support class,but dont think it can fit in rogue,it should be like demon hunter, a 2 spec class,a support bard with big buffs or whatever,and a traditional healing spec

Yup, the problem isn't "we shouldn't have another support class."

The problem is, "we can't replace a dps spec that some people have played and loved for 15 years to create a new support spec."

A new support spec is a fine idea. Subtlety Rogue can't be it, since Subtlety Rogue already serves different niches and where will those players go?

[Naiattavain]

shoegazing i support your efforts but i don't think we are being taken seriously. we are just wasting time; blizzards a big nothing Berger on everything about the products and support..