Please no more AP grind, no Netherlight / no Azerite, No Essences / No Corruption

[StrawberryZebra]

Try playing arenas and then come tell us how you don't need essences and shit. Because yes, some people play this game for PvP and before you say old chestnut BS like "this is a pve game" or "nobody cares about arena", we pay exactly the same subscription fee as you do and we deserve to have our voice heard too.

I think this perfectly highlights a running theme in this thread. People are assuming that their experiences have been the norm and refusing to look at the systems from another point of view.

Those of you who have been playing throughout BFA almost uninterrupted are of the opinion that you can level the HOA up naturally through just doing what you do. It's easy to dismiss the HOA levels entirely when you're already where you should be without needing to make an intentional effort to level it up. I do see your points of view, and even agree with them, but your experiences don't align with everybody elses.

The systems look very different if you're a returning player. An RL friend of mine jumped back in this weekend after not playing for about a year. His HOA was level 21 when he logged back in. Even with the quest to immediately bump it up to level 35, he's still got a ways to go before he can use all the traits on the ~iLevel 430 ish gear he's managed to cobble together over the weekend. And a hell of a lot more besides getting hold of all the required essences.

It looks wildly different if you're a PvPer, who is forced to complete PvE reps, WQ's and such for the essences to be able to compete with players who do have that extra power.

I usually manage to fit in ~6 or so hours of WoW in a week, and in that time I'd really like to get some raids done. I also frequently have to take time away due to RL matters. So I've got to constantly maximise any AP gains in order to be able to do that due to how little time I get to spend with the game relative to others, as well as find the time for Visions, Daily quests, Rep grinds, Essences and so on. To me, the systems are a constant obligation I need to meet in order to get the enjoyment I want out of the game. Honestly, it's all getting to be a little too much for me to be able to handle.

So whilst some players have been able to keep their HOA up to date, collect essences and rep and so on through their regular play and do so at a pace that keeps their relative power level equal to the rest of the community at large, others have been left behind.

While there is a catch up mechanism in place, it requires you to participate in content that is perhaps irrelevent to your in game goals and interests. In that situation it's easy to see why the players it affects would consider it to be a grind - It's an artificial time barrier that's keeping them away from doing the content they actually play the game for. It's fine saying "Just do 3 Islands a week". That may not be something that others have any interest in. It could well be somebody elses entire WoW Weekend just doing Islands.

I'm not assuming that my points of view match up with others experiences. But I would like you to at least consider the fact that not everyone in the same situtation as you are, and that different players have different in game goals they want to achieve. A little bit of perspective would make this thread a much more constructive discussion.

[Lubefist]

I think this perfectly highlights a running theme in this thread. People are assuming that their experiences have been the norm and refusing to look at the systems from another point of view.

Those of you who have been playing throughout BFA almost uninterrupted are of the opinion that you can level the HOA up naturally through just doing what you do. It's easy to dismiss the HOA levels entirely when you're already where you should be without needing to make an intentional effort to level it up. I do see your points of view, and even agree with them, but your experiences don't align with everybody elses.

The systems look very different if you're a returning player. An RL friend of mine jumped back in this weekend after not playing for about a year. His HOA was level 21 when he logged back in. Even with the quest to immediately bump it up to level 35, he's still got a ways to go before he can use all the traits on the ~iLevel 430 ish gear he's managed to cobble together over the weekend. And a hell of a lot more besides getting hold of all the required essences.

It looks wildly different if you're a PvPer, who is forced to complete PvE reps, WQ's and such for the essences to be able to compete with players who do have that extra power.

I usually manage to fit in ~6 or so hours of WoW in a week, and in that time I'd really like to get some raids done. I also frequently have to take time away due to RL matters. So I've got to constantly maximise any AP gains in order to be able to do that due to how little time I get to spend with the game relative to others, as well as find the time for Visions, Daily quests, Rep grinds, Essences and so on. To me, the systems are a constant obligation I need to meet in order to get the enjoyment I want out of the game. Honestly, it's all getting to be a little too much for me to be able to handle.

So whilst some players have been able to keep their HOA up to date, collect essences and rep and so on through their regular play and do so at a pace that keeps their relative power level equal to the rest of the community at large, others have been left behind.

While there is a catch up mechanism in place, it requires you to participate in content that is perhaps irrelevent to your in game goals and interests. In that situation it's easy to see why the players it affects would consider it to be a grind - It's an artificial time barrier that's keeping them away from doing the content they actually play the game for. It's fine saying "Just do 3 Islands a week". That may not be something that others have any interest in. It could well be somebody elses entire WoW Weekend just doing Islands.

I'm not assuming that my points of view match up with others experiences. But I would like you to at least consider the fact that not everyone in the same situtation as you are, and that different players have different in game goals they want to achieve. A little bit of perspective would make this thread a much more constructive discussion.

Hold on, are you trying to imply I'm the one who's not considerate of peoples different goals, ways the enjoy the game etc?

[EbaumsTipster]

Lol you still trust their word when they've outright lied so many times throughout BfA? Remember when Ion said he wanted people to know an item was an upgrade based on the ilvl, without having to sim it, and then lied and gave us Corruption gear?

Why would you trust Blizzard and take them at their word after having lied all throughout BfA?

To be fair, we've heard this kind of thing from them before and it turned out to be a lie..so.... cant really blame people for being skeptical of what they say

No no you see it is not ap it is ap (anima power, totally different!) so they are gud bois now!

Also we totally dont need to grind torghast to upgrade legendary mandatory for all game styles, no sir, absolutely.

And we dont need to grind and regrind covenants, nope, its not like they give new abilities or something and will be buffed and rebuffed every so often so we need to change them to be optimal and grind again, phew, good they dont do that.

Seriously, Shadowlands seems like a more Promiselands am i right?!

I don't care how many times they've lied, "Blizzard lies" is not an argument and you'll have to deal with it.

Cry some more.

[Aliven]

I don't care how many times they've lied, "Blizzard lies" is not an argument and you'll have to deal with it.

Cry some more.

Its argument to not believe them. Unless somebody is a fool.

[StrawberryZebra]

Hold on, are you trying to imply I'm the one who's not considerate of peoples different goals, ways the enjoy the game etc?

I'm saying that all posters here are only seeing things from their own point of view. All of them.

I quoted your post because you were expressing a view outside of the norm here that I felt needed addressing.

[Doffen]

I think this perfectly highlights a running theme in this thread. People are assuming that their experiences have been the norm and refusing to look at the systems from another point of view.

Those of you who have been playing throughout BFA almost uninterrupted are of the opinion that you can level the HOA up naturally through just doing what you do. It's easy to dismiss the HOA levels entirely when you're already where you should be without needing to make an intentional effort to level it up. I do see your points of view, and even agree with them, but your experiences don't align with everybody elses.

The systems look very different if you're a returning player. An RL friend of mine jumped back in this weekend after not playing for about a year. His HOA was level 21 when he logged back in. Even with the quest to immediately bump it up to level 35, he's still got a ways to go before he can use all the traits on the ~iLevel 430 ish gear he's managed to cobble together over the weekend. And a hell of a lot more besides getting hold of all the required essences.

It looks wildly different if you're a PvPer, who is forced to complete PvE reps, WQ's and such for the essences to be able to compete with players who do have that extra power.

I usually manage to fit in ~6 or so hours of WoW in a week, and in that time I'd really like to get some raids done. I also frequently have to take time away due to RL matters. So I've got to constantly maximise any AP gains in order to be able to do that due to how little time I get to spend with the game relative to others, as well as find the time for Visions, Daily quests, Rep grinds, Essences and so on. To me, the systems are a constant obligation I need to meet in order to get the enjoyment I want out of the game. Honestly, it's all getting to be a little too much for me to be able to handle.

So whilst some players have been able to keep their HOA up to date, collect essences and rep and so on through their regular play and do so at a pace that keeps their relative power level equal to the rest of the community at large, others have been left behind.

While there is a catch up mechanism in place, it requires you to participate in content that is perhaps irrelevent to your in game goals and interests. In that situation it's easy to see why the players it affects would consider it to be a grind - It's an artificial time barrier that's keeping them away from doing the content they actually play the game for. It's fine saying "Just do 3 Islands a week". That may not be something that others have any interest in. It could well be somebody elses entire WoW Weekend just doing Islands.

I'm not assuming that my points of view match up with others experiences. But I would like you to at least consider the fact that not everyone in the same situtation as you are, and that different players have different in game goals they want to achieve. A little bit of perspective would make this thread a much more constructive discussion.

First of all the catch up is that you get the neck to 50 after a few quests in Nazjatar(halfway in and you get neck to 50 and can start with 8.3 stuff) From 50 to 68(I think) it's 1k ap needed for each level. That's two rare elites in the new zones for each level. It's not hard to get it to 70 with casual play, lets take your 6 hours within a week. Each raid boss gives you 900 AP as well. The Artifact Knowledge is silly strong so for a returning player or a newly dinged alt have it pretty easy when it comes to AP. That's what we are saying, to get your neck up is silly easy. My hunter(the one in the picture) got to 75 today. He was at 4 when 8.3 came out. He is played for 22 hours in 8.3.

The shitty part is the essences and that we have so many things to upgrade. AP, Essences, Corruption, Legendary cloak, get Azerite Armor etc. Though what I have done on the essence side of things on new alts is to get the new ones while getting the m+ one and crucible of flame which are both good essences. The new Breath of the Dying is silly strong in the minor.

I know being new know is both confusing and it seems like things are all over the place. And they are, for sure. And it is indeed an issue, and I totally get that feeling, I get it myself some times. But the AP is the least of anyones troubles ingame atm.

[huth]

Like I've said, I'm not the one changing what things mean. There is no nuance for me to miss

Are you doing something repetitively for an end goal? Then you're grinding my friend, simple as that

And yet you keep calling actions that aren't that grinds. You can do islands and world quests for other reasons than to get AP. I'm mostly doing the former in hopes of getting a residuum map, which can not be done repetitively since you're limited to one map per week.

[Kalontas]

Anima has been in the game and connected to death before Artifact Power existed. Nomenclature will not go against hard confirmations from Blizzcon.

"Hard confirmations from BlizzCon."

Anima will be the new Artifact Power. Yeah, they said it wouldn't, but they say a lot of things. Like "corruption isn't the new warforging" (no, it's worse).

[StrawberryZebra]

The Artifact Knowledge is silly strong so for a returning player or a newly dinged alt have it pretty easy when it comes to AP. That's what we are saying, to get your neck up is silly easy. My hunter(the one in the picture) got to 75 today. He was at 4 when 8.3 came out. He is played for 22 hours in 8.3.

All of which is great. However I didn't start playing in 8.3, I started in 8.0.

As a result, I've had to constantly grind AP throughout the entire expansion just to keep my characters overall power rising with everybody elses. I took a break just before Battle of Dazar'alor was released. At the time, my character was geared up from head to toe in M+ gear and had an iLevel of ~390. I came back to find that all of my Azerite pieces were now completely worthless due to gear being available with an extra ring of traits. Even when I'd gotten that gear, I still had to keep leveling up my Heart in order to use all of those traits. As a player, that feels absolutely terrible to come back to.

It's been an ongoing issue throught the entire expansion. Every time I need to step away from the game for a while new player powers are unlocked and I've got to spend time unlocking them too or get left behind the power curve completely. Even on those occasions when I get the gear, I've still got to put the time into AP grinding to unlock all the rings most of the time.

Hell, I'm going to get left behind again this week when the Cloaks have a Stat boost proc, I've missed a couple of weeks worth of Coalescing Visions farming and often have to skip doing the daily quests in order to focus on other areas.

There's been a lot of content that I've wanted to do that's been pushed aside to make room for AP grinding. I've not even gotten to unlock Flying yet because of the overwhelming need to constantly be squeezing every last drop of AP out of the game just to stay competative enough to raid. And the more systems that are added, the worse it gets. I've got the bare minimum essences to be competative for my roles and nothing more - I quite simply cannot afford to invest the time into them they need without falling behind somewhere else.

That is why I think the Heart of Azeroth, AP, Essences and whatever other systems Blizzard come up with should be completely forgotten about for Shadowlands. They're not a good system for me, they likely never will be even with weekly caps. I do not want them in the game at all, in any shape or form ever again. It creates far more problems that it solves.

[roflolmao]

I'd be ok with all that except the "azerite traits shit gear, that can't be swapped to different specs like old Tier gear" IF AND ONLY IF it would be accountwide, I'm tired of doing azshara on all my alts to get the essence.

[Int3g3r]

-Get rid of Azerite and AP grinds
-No more Netherlight Crucible type crap
-No Azerite traits shit gear, that can't be swapped to different specs like old Tier gear
-No Essences
-No Corruption
-No Table mission crap

I quited wow one week after Legion release because of the classdesign and those points you listed.
I will not come back until they remove those systems.
Those systems are the worst thing in my opinion they ever implemented.
On top of that you have no depth in class design.

I hated MOP on release, i hate the MOP world even now.
But at least it was soo fun to play back then....
Even watching arenas back then was a blast.
Today i miss MOP so much, this was by far the best PvP experience i've ever had in wow.
On top of that you could do challenge mode, raids and rbg.
I had alot of twinks and most classes where fun to play.

Maybe i'm too old for wow....

I know, wow was never made for pvp.
But why is it not possible to accept pvp and pve in wow?
Now they talking that wow is not a place for e-sports...
Lets get real, everyone is impressed if guilds get first kills, and leaderboards on pvp arena will not get removed.
Maybe wow is not always balanced, but which game is?

Please Blizzard let us have some fun again.

[Doffen]

All of which is great. However I didn't start playing in 8.3, I started in 8.0.

As a result, I've had to constantly grind AP throughout the entire expansion just to keep my characters overall power rising with everybody elses. I took a break just before Battle of Dazar'alor was released. At the time, my character was geared up from head to toe in M+ gear and had an iLevel of ~390. I came back to find that all of my Azerite pieces were now completely worthless due to gear being available with an extra ring of traits. Even when I'd gotten that gear, I still had to keep leveling up my Heart in order to use all of those traits. As a player, that feels absolutely terrible to come back to.

It was more about your friend, but even as for someone that plays regularly but very few hours like you said you do the AK is silly strong.

I have the opposite experience compared to you. As does many in my guild. For each patch the AP level has been to low imo. Character progression in BfA through AP has been a joke. You get to max way too fast so you end up with more than 50% of the time a patch last without progressing your character. And when it haven't done the impact like it did in Legion I have been careless too when it gets to acquiring what you need, because it's done fast anyway. That's why Essences has been good. Though Essences should have been here from the start instead of the Azerite Armor. Which had so many flaws, especially in the start. Now it's get and forget kind of thing.

But, it is all about time. You say you have 6 hours a week? Heck that's 2 raid-days a week, and that's it. And I am saying this because I can see the points you are making. But for a player who maybe play 15-20 hours a week it's a different story. Perspective, context is important for sure. Blizzard could probably do better to cater to more different kind of players, and that's why the next part is to me an excellent solution:

I think that the soft cap kinda thing with character progression like they mentioned at Blizzcon would be an awesome solution. You have a soft cap on character progression, and when you reach that in that week you can still do more and get customization rewards instead. So a player like you wouldn't be behind on the power part, and someone like me with more hours per week could do more and be rewarded for the extra effort. I think that's a good idea and I hope they go through with it.

[Elias01]

The worst grind you should have to do is rep grinds. The game is so alt unfriendly with AP, Essences, Cloak, and Corruption. If you need Blood of the Enemy and Strife on multiple characters have fun.

I hope they don’t repeat this shit in Shadowlands.

You dont need any of that on alt character.

[huth]

It's been an ongoing issue throught the entire expansion. Every time I need to step away from the game for a while new player powers are unlocked and I've got to spend time unlocking them too or get left behind the power curve completely. Even on those occasions when I get the gear, I've still got to put the time into AP grinding to unlock all the rings most of the time.

Tell me, how much did you actually need to grind to unlock anything aside from the ilvl boost?

Nah, let's spare you the effort: Probably next to nothing, unless you weren't able to unlock everything on Uldir gear either, because only the iLvl boost even still went up. Which was rather trivial to accomplish thanks to AK.

Hell, I'm going to get left behind again this week when the Cloaks have a Stat boost proc, I've missed a couple of weeks worth of Coalescing Visions farming and often have to skip doing the daily quests in order to focus on other areas.

Gee, if only Blizzard implemented a hotfix on the weekly reset that made both catching up and Rank 13-15 easier to obtain by having more pages drop for 7-11 and increasing vision drops and lowering the pages needed for the last three ranks...

[StrawberryZebra]

I have the opposite experience compared to you. As does many in my guild. For each patch the AP level has been to low imo. Character progression in BfA through AP has been a joke. You get to max way too fast so you end up with more than 50% of the time a patch last without progressing your character. And when it haven't done the impact like it did in Legion I have been careless too when it gets to acquiring what you need, because it's done fast anyway. That's why Essences has been good. Though Essences should have been here from the start instead of the Azerite Armor. Which had so many flaws, especially in the start. Now it's get and forget kind of thing.

If it's taken care of passively without you really noticing through just playing then it seems, to me anyway, that Blizzard were trying to design a solution to a problem that didn't exist. If it's unnoticable for players like yourself, but overly punitive on others I do wonder what purpose it actually serves.

I know that if AP wasn't in game, or was a one-and-done kind of deal the way Reputations and such have been in the past, then any time I got outside of raid logging would be spent getting either PvP achivements or else doing Glory of the Wartorn Hero. I'm already invested and committed to playing the game, I don't need a reason to keep playing.

I don't know. Do Blizzard consider players raid logging to be a problem? I was a guild leader through TBC and Wrath and raid logging tended to be the norm for my guild.

I'm really struggling to come up with an adequate explanatation. Allow me to ask you; What benefits does AP have for you as a player?

Tell me, how much did you actually need to grind to unlock anything aside from the ilvl boost?

Nah, let's spare you the effort: Probably next to nothing, unless you weren't able to unlock everything on Uldir gear either, because only the iLvl boost even still went up. Which was rather trivial to accomplish thanks to AK.

My HOA was level 28. Even without improving my iLevel, I still needed to gain ~7 levels or so to unlock all the secondary traits on the gear. I generally play a tank, so those extra defenses were required to be competative with my peers. All in all, it took me ~3 weeks to catch back up with the rest of the player base in terms of power, then a week or two longer to get myself in a position where I was able to continue raiding.

I wasn't so far behind that it was 1k AP per level, and it still took intentionally going after AP from WQ's and Islands to get me to where I needed to be. You may call that trivial, for me just getting a round of WQ's done is a full play session. I'm not able to reliably play every day, so I missed a lot of opportunites to get that easy AP.

Of course, when I could continue raiding I still needed to also be making sure I was still gaining AP from other sources. Which was a massive issue with so little time left for WoW.

Which is my main gripe with the system - It requires constant input from the player. It's not a one and done deal, you need to keep continually gaining AP for the entire duration of the expansion. If you're learning a new boss then you're not getting any AP from that kill and I've got to make up for that in other ways.

You never get to a point where you can just stop gaining AP. Essences, for all of their faults, at least have a reachable end point you can aim for.

Gee, if only Blizzard implemented a hotfix on the weekly reset that made both catching up and Rank 13-15 easier to obtain by having more pages drop for 7-11 and increasing vision drops and lowering the pages needed for the last three ranks...

Just two things. First the Hotfix isn't live in the EU at time of writing, and second my Cloak is only Rank 5 so the change won't affect me just yet. It will benefit me in future, sure, but it hasn't benefited me in the present. It's definately a positive change for me.

[Kalontas]

We know for a fact anima is different from AP in the sense there's a weekly cap. Why are you being so deluded?

We don't know anything for a fact. The expansion's in F&F alpha. Do I really need to spell out the things that in the past changed from BlizzCon announcements to product release?

And even if it's true, it's just AP grind with a weekly cap. Which doesn't change anything about the fact you just go out and grind your new AP for some time to make your items and spells more powerful.

[Daymanmb]

So basically, nobody should play the game unless they are organized raiders. Interesting, this is an excellent way to kill the game.

Lmao, bc what theyve been doing lately is so successful, right?

[burek]

I don't know. Do Blizzard consider players raid logging to be a problem?

Yes. Blame the community for not accepting WoD, the raidlogging heaven.

[The Butt Witch]

Please Blizzard, for the love of all that's holy, STOP with the BS systems introduced in BfA and Legion.

-Get rid of Azerite and AP grinds
-No more Netherlight Crucible type crap
-No Azerite traits shit gear, that can't be swapped to different specs like old Tier gear
-No Essences
-No Corruption
-No Table mission crap

STOP it already. All of these things sucked so bad, and are just such a stupid pointless grind. Go back to gearing up through Dungeons first, then Raids second. You want to gear up, you run a Normal dungeon, then get better gear in a Heroic dungeon, then better gear again in a Mythic dungeon. You want even better gear, run a Heroic Raid, and you want the BiS gear you run Mythic Raids. That's it. No fucking AP grind, no Artifact weapon. No Corruption bullshit.

Have tokens or badges that drop off bosses in Raids, that you then purchase gear from Raid NPC vendors in the main city.

Design the class and specs so good from the start of the new expansion, that none of these stupid grindy systems are even needed whatsoever, go back to something similar to the MoP and WoD class type builds and systems

This video sums up a lot of my thinking on the current state of game ( it's not WoW MMO anymore but a ARPG like Diablo instead )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A86A9s_IEQg

So what is going to keep you in the game, then?

[Advent]

All I know is that, even though I was raiding in WoD, the fact that I could raid log and play other games made me not even want to come back. It was great for people who only wanted to raid, but I wanted to be able to chase other goals, maybe have something exciting to look forward to when I eventually decided raiding was dull and boring (Which it was and still is).

Basically there is no compromise. One group of players wants there to be power progression outside of raids, and the other group doesn't. There will never be common ground between us.