Just go back to MOP gearing

[Donatello Trumpi]

Mists of Pandaria Gearing System! isn't something you can put on a box as a feature.

You can't go back. And it wouldn't matter if they did. I'm all for a more deterministic system for gearing but it's not a selling point. The systemic portion of how players are geared isn't something that people really think much about on a macro-population level.

I agree with @Nerovar that a simpler, more intuitive design would be welcome but it won't change much about how popular the game is with non-players.

Easy, they can bring back the more intuitive design by re-adding Tier sets on top.
There you have your checkbox feature.

[A Chozo]

Reee Blizzard why do I have to farm valor points doing dailies to upgrade my raiding gear

This should be account-wide

I replaced my BiS trinket with the next BiS trinket of the new raid and I have to do dailies AGAIN BLIZZARD

[RoKPaNda]

Nothing would kill this game faster than taking fun out of the gearing process for the average player. You cannot balance the game around Mythic raiders, we're such a super minority. You have to design things that are fun for everyone else. Catering to us is a horrendous business decision. Titanforging was fun for the casuals, I have no idea if they like corruption or not. I hate corruption but if the casuals respond well to it expect whatever replaces it in 9.0 to be something similar. I'd like some tweaks so that it's not as much of a burden, but I understand that they have to cater to the average players because those are the players that keep the lights on.

Something like MoP is horrible for that. Reforging wasn't fun for us, we just used an addon to do it for us. It wasn't fun for them because the gains they saw for it were smaller and it just seemed like a chore. The ilevel upgrade valor points weren't fun for anyone and it's so weird to see people talk about it being a great system. It was optional busywork for casuals and it was mandatory busywork for us. I'd take TF over corruption and I'd take it over the MoP system as well. I don't obsess over whether an item TFs or not. If I get a TF version of an item that I want, cool, very nice. In the MoP system, and any system before that, I didn't even have the option of upgrades after a point or it was do mandatory chores for an imperceptible upgrade and I'd quickly reach a point between tiers where I was as geared as I could get and I'd unsub. Going back to that kind of system definitely isn't going to get people interested between content patches.

[Jessicka]

Well I’m no raider anymore, just a returning player wondering why the fuck my corrupted gear keeps killing me. Like, what the fuck is this shit, seriously?

Can’t see too many casuals enjoying it. It’s like gear with negative modifiers in old versions of Diablo, nobody liked those things.

You’re spot on about listening to raiders, they would put up with any shit and consume it to get an edge. Saying ‘but Mythic raiders used it’ is basically meaningless. I know, I’ve been there, gameplay is secondary to winning by a large margin for that demographic.

[Relapses]

MoP gearing is impossible as long as M+ exists.

[Zephriel]

I'm not going to even say the name of the youtube guy that said this because I really dislike him, however I hate to say one of his latest videos is 100% correct. WoW is not a traditional MMORPG anymore. WoW is an ARPG. Its action based, instanced content. The world does not matter, mob scale to your level, zero outdoor relevant content. You go to a city, you queue or enter a instance and gear falls from the sky. 90% or more of player power comes from gear, not spells or abilities leveling up or choice. Its all RNG loot that is easy to get and all personal loot. What does this remind you of? Diablo, Wolcen, Path of Exile. WoW is not an MMORPG. Which is why players that like the post legion wow tend to not like traditional mmos and tend to like ARPGs and action based instant combat games like BR's and FPS. I don't think the devs are going to turn this back into a MMO. WoW's future seems to be an ARPG, like it or not and the gearing is going to stay the same.

[thunterman]

I want fixed gems, no titanforging, BUT tertiery stats are a nice RNG element. speed, avoidance and unbreakable specifically, Leech is too strong, and should also be a fixed/removed stat. I also want reforging, having to use a tool to calculate your best reforge path is better than not using Item X even though it's a higher level because Item Y has better stats. Reforging cut the Ilvl gap in half, 5 Ilvls and Y would probably still be better, but 10+ X reforged optimally would be an upgrade. Without Reforging we are in situations where you can get an Ilvl upgrade of 20+ and it's not actually better, which shouldn't be possible.

They need to weigh primary stat more frankly. An Idea I've always pondered is that for example, on my warrior, the more strength I have, the more my secondaries increase thier %. Pulling numbers out my ass for the example :
Say 1 Crit stat = 0.01% crit chance with 0 STR, but that conversion scales up with STR. At 1000 STR 1 crit stat could = 0.05% chance to crit. This would narrow down on Ilvl upgrades being downgrades, because even if you loose your favored stat, you'd make what you have left more effective due to having more primary. Dropping 100 Crit points for 100 STR would'nt drop your crit% by 1% then, it would drop it by *No math actually done here* 0.5%. The bonus autoattack damage from the strengrh would outweigh the lost crit chance at this point. thenj consider reforging ontop, giving you 30 or so crit back, you'd 100% be simming better with that less optimal, higher ilvl piece of gear. Somone actually good at maths would ofcourse have to come up with a formula that doesn't suck - but that would be an extremely big step in fixing the current shitshow that is wow gear.

They also need to put primary stats back on rings, I've put so many massive Ilvl upgrade rings in the scrapper this expansion it's depressing.

[Ragnarohk]

It's simple, intuitive, you had options to work towards when drops didn't happen, you weren't plagued with a ton of grinding unless you were particularly hard on raiding and really needed gear fast.

It had its faults, but it's a million times better than RNG, unlimited endless grinding, and having to change up how your character plays half a dozen times a tier.

WotLK did it better.
Static ilvl, reasonable catch-up mechanisms (Badges, Vault of Archavon, new 5 mans), enchants/armor enhancement/gems felt special

Cata added reforging. I think that was good.

Then MoP introduced Warforged/Titanforged gear. That's when it all went to hell

[Jessicka]

WotLK did it better.
Static ilvl, reasonable catch-up mechanisms (Badges, Vault of Archavon, new 5 mans), enchants/armor enhancement/gems felt special

Cata added reforging. I think that was good.

Then MoP introduced Warforged/Titanforged gear. That's when it all went to hell

Legion sent it to hell with open ended Artifact Power and RNG Legendaries for which meant you were never ever done, never met any goals because there were no goals, just endless grind, which if ever you fell behind was game over.

[fathom81]

It's simple, intuitive, you had options to work towards when drops didn't happen, you weren't plagued with a ton of grinding unless you were particularly hard on raiding and really needed gear fast.

It had its faults, but it's a million times better than RNG, unlimited endless grinding, and having to change up how your character plays half a dozen times a tier.

And 10/20 man raiding, please, miss it so much.

[Ragnarohk]

And 10/20 man raiding, please, miss it so much.

It "felt" more personal. But the flex system was a good improvement. Your guild has 12 players? You can all play together!

Mythic locked at 20 makes sense. It's the only difficulty were tunning matters.

- - - Updated - - -

I personally do not want a deterministic gear system.

I want insanely good but also insanely rare items to exist, so the game feels less boring and loot actually feels like loot instead of like a checklist.

That's what legendaries were for. Either really rare and powerful drops or items that required group effort or a long journey to obtain.

[clevin]

Yeah they can but only if they would go back also with dungeon/raid desing and its reward structure. So no mythic+, no worldQ, no seasonal resets etc,..

I agree that they couldn't literally just drop in the MoP system without some tweaks, but they could drop a lot of the RNG channels for gearing. No TF, no corruption, etc.

Things like M+ chests could drop a token or points vs a gear piece. Say you needed 5000 points for a new piece... M+ weekly chest could drop 5000 points. WQs could drop 1000 points so that they're worth doing but we don't have epics from cracking nuts for squirrels... You could even vary this... Emissaries drop more 2500 points, individual quests, 1000 or something.


But at the end of the day, you can remove most of the randomness, adapt deterministic loot, tweak for the features you've added like M+ and it would be less frustrating for people. Or they can continue the Skinner box model and they'll retain those people who are basically addicted to dopamine hits vs people who play because there's fun stuff to do. I don't care, it's not my money.

- - - Updated - - -

I personally do not want a deterministic gear system.

I want insanely good but also insanely rare items to exist, so the game feels less boring and loot actually feels like loot (unpredictable) instead of like a supermarket shopping list.

Nothing in a deterministic system prevents that. Just adjust the drop rate so Weapon Of Rare Awesomeness has a 1% drop rate period vs the regular drop rate being 10% with stacking RNG chances for a socket, another chance for WF, another for the right corruption etc.

[Nerovar]

Mists of Pandaria Gearing System! isn't something you can put on a box as a feature.

You can't go back. And it wouldn't matter if they did. I'm all for a more deterministic system for gearing but it's not a selling point. The systemic portion of how players are geared isn't something that people really think much about on a macro-population level.

I agree with @Nerovar that a simpler, more intuitive design would be welcome but it won't change much about how popular the game is with non-players.

I don't really think that it's a viable strategy to aim for new players with a 16 year old game. Doesn't seem that realistic to favour the small amount of potential new players over the existing, paying playerbase or those who could return to the game.

[clevin]

But I think most people have gotten used to the fact that all items have an equal drop-chance from the boss loottable nowadays, so it might feel very funky and weird at the start.

/shrug. That's how it used to be. People will adapt quickly. I mean, it was like that when WoW had millions of active players so it can't have been a system that drove people off.

Here's the problem with the "drop has good chance, but drop with optimal stats has low chance" method...

'Weapon of Rare Awesomenes' drops with base stats etc. "Nice, upgrade from my last weapon"

'Weapon of Rare Awesomenes' drops again with poor stats "Eh, I have this. DE"

'Weapon of Rare Awesomenes' drops with slightly better stats. "This is pretty much a side grade... anyone need it? OK, fine, I'll take it I guess..."

'Weapon of Rare Awesomenes' drops with great stats. "Yeah BABY!!!!"

Now, if the desire is to give players that "yeah BABY" feeling... they're only getting it in a tiny minority of drops AND the other drops after the first one are a disappointment AND those drops could have been another item which someone else might have liked.

We killed Nef on Classic last night and a healing pally got the mace off of him. It's a BiS weapon for healers so the pally was incredibly happy. And now he doesn't have to worry about upgrades for his weapon until AQ perhaps... No "God, I hope it drops with better stats" or anything.

[Edward Wu]

Why is everything MoP this? MoP that? Is MoP where 90% of the posters here started playing?

Both Wrath and BC had fantastic systems and concepts, too, you know.

[Jessicka]

Why is everything MoP this? MoP that? Is MoP where 90% of the posters here started playing?

Both Wrath and BC had fantastic systems and concepts, too, you know.

Wrath had a very good system I agree, I feel like Cata and MoP refined it and made it better though.

Since you’re so interested and it matters so much to you, for the record I started playing in TBC.

[Lolsteak]

I doubt Blizzard will listen as deterministic Gear Systems have a realistic Point where the Player can say "I am done". But with RNG you'll never reach that.
RNG ist not a bad Thing. Corruption would be a nice system if they had the "nice to have" status but not must. 25% Percent of the current thoughput the do is absolutely fine

The funny thing is if content is released at a steady pace you're unlikely to reach that point anyway

Take Classic for example, There's a set BiS list for each class and each spec for each phase, How many people actually manage to complete that BiS set before the next raid arrives?

I'm of the belief that having a (somewhat) achievable goal makes the game worth playing, For me this RNG on top of RNG = meaningless items with every single drop being a disappointment unless it was titanforged / socketed to the max, Even the corruption effects now are a disappointment unless you get the best ones.

We're at a point where loot dropping in a loot based game isn't fun and it reminds me greatly of Diablo 3

- - - Updated - - -

But in the old Classic model you'd just have

3x "Meh" and 1x "Yeah Baby!" - reactions.

So I don't see how that is better.

It just seems to me like deterministic loottables are boring and even cause less incentive to keep playing longer or to focus on one character longer.

I completely disagree

We've moved from a system where Ashkandi dropping was exciting even if you didn't win the roll to one where even if Ashkandi drops it's going to be disappointing most of the time

Having the goalposts continually move and be out of reach really doesn't make me want to run the race

[Lolsteak]

This might more be because we've been playing the game for over 15 years.

You know what still gets people excited today? Titanforged Askhandi with a socket dropping. People still would murder each other for that.

That is what loot is supposed to be, sometimes something unexpected and powerful needs to drop.

You mean like Legendaries used to?

[Tech614]

Why is everything MoP this? MoP that? Is MoP where 90% of the posters here started playing?

Both Wrath and BC had fantastic systems and concepts, too, you know.

BC systems? You mean badges? Because other then that it had the same damn systems as vanilla and also had horrible itemization leading to garbage like dragonspine trophy being BIS for an entire freaking xpac when it dropped off a loot pinata first tier boss.

Gearing was horrid in BC, so no, no one is going to clamor for how good it was. What did you honestly think with this post lol. WoTLK was better but still not great. Cata and MoP definitely had the best gearing for people that just want clear concise BIS and also don't want to farm old content to get said BIS. Legion and BFA are better for people who want to keep farming for a tiny chance at more power. Both systems are ok and anyone trying to argue one is wrong does not know how opinions work.