WOW- Now pay to win?

[Mardux]

BoEs typically weren't 15%+ damage increases though.

I wouldn't exactly call it "P2W", but it's certainly closer to that than it's ever been before. Preach/Bay had an entire discussion on this after the world first race, with multiple guilds spending 100m+ gold on corruption BoEs.

And they typically aren't 15%+ damage increases now.

Unless someone is amazingly bad at their class.

- - - Updated - - -

Is the best argument really "criminals have always existed, so it's okay if the crime becomes legalized"?

Is hyperbole your best argument really....?

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

Is the best argument really "criminals have always existed, so it's okay if the crime becomes legalized"?

in fact legalization of "crimes" sometimes can make sense. Like with drug legalization for example.
So if you can not stop a crime from happening (selling drugs/selling gold) it could make sense to decriminalize it which in the end leads to less ressources needing to be spend on fighting gold sellers/drug dealers and thus the company/state even having a financial benefit from it which helps the citizens/player base in the end.
Introducing the token was one of blizzards better ideas tbh and the only way to remove any "unfair benefits" would be to remove the auction house and player trading in general.

[Tident]

And they typically aren't 15%+ damage increases now.

Unless someone is amazingly bad at their class.

- - - Updated - - -



Is hyperbole your best argument really....?

Usually they are though not 15% per slot barring specific encounters. I think you are only taking into account a singular corruption. Outside of infinite stars you usually run more.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

One notable difference is the amount of "power" you can buy from the AH now as to previous patches. It is considerably larger than previous patches.

True but I can’t say the amount of power matter to me when it comes to P2W.

[talmar]

OK, the whole p2w argument I think needs to be separated out into PvE and PvP discussions. Why? Because PvP has an actual win condition and PvE doesn't. Without an actual, tangible win condition then I don't see how something can be p2w.

PvP - definitely can be p2w currently. Beating other real life human players/teams, thus an actual win/loose condition exists. Simple fix, remove corruption effects in PvP environments.

PvE - technically there is a win condition for 1% of the player base, those competing for world firsts and mdi. for the other 99% I don't see a win condition here. What do you win? You can't "win" World of Warcraft. You could call it pay 2 be better than others temporarily but it still doesn't get you anything. I have almost no corruption gear at all and the few I have suck. I'm sitting at a corruption level of 3 and my dps is as competitive with anybody else I game with, PUGS, guild raid, M+ . And yes, many are running with a ton of corruption gear sitting at corruption levels over 100. As others have stated, if you suck and can't do the mechanics all the BoE corrupted gear in the world won't help you. Dead characters do no dps/tanking/healing.

I've been playing WoW a very long time now and I don't see corrupted BoE's having any affect on WoW outside of the top 1%.

[Kralljin]

That's a whole interesting argument by itself and it's not a simple one - it depends on the nature of the crime (whether it's truly harmful or merely illegal, for example), and on whether legalizing it will reduce harm or not. I mean, with selling gold, I think it's clear tokens have reduced harm, just like legalizing weed does. But no-one is legalizing murder or letting you pay to grief people, say.

in fact legalization of "crimes" sometimes can make sense. Like with drug legalization for example.
So if you can not stop a crime from happening (selling drugs/selling gold) it could make sense to decriminalize it which in the end leads to less ressources needing to be spend on fighting gold sellers/drug dealers and thus the company/state even having a financial benefit from it which helps the citizens/player base in the end.
Introducing the token was one of blizzards better ideas tbh and the only way to remove any "unfair benefits" would be to remove the auction house and player trading in general.

The comparison however ignores an aspect of the discussion, when discussing the legalization of weed, people generally attempt to provide some objective reason like it being not as addictive as other drugs or the fact that other substances such as alcohol are in fact legal.

However, the argument "people smoke weed, you might as well legalize it" is just bogus, the fact that crimes are being committed without having a 100% failsafe to prevent them is no basis to legalize it.

Murder is also not legalized because we can't prevent it from happening, as it would destroy society.

That aside, i don't think the token in itself is a problem (altough one can't deny that 20€ for something that actually costs 11-13€ is quite a cut in Blizzards favour), the issue is the impact it has on the game.
To me, i think it has led to the popularization of boosting services, before the WoW token, you had *some* guilds spamming a boosting service and a few select rich people took the offer, now the trade chat is filled with boosting services and i think the aspect of the WoW Token cannot be ignored in this regard.

To me, boosting services for gold are fine in small doses, but it really has reached a level where it no longer seems healthy for the game from a player perspective.

In regards to this discussion, it wouldn't even exist if BoE Items couldn't corrupt, that doesn't devalue the BoE's by a huge amount nor invalidates the corruption system.

[DeltrusDisc]

You could always buy BOEs for money, so either wow has always been p2w or never.

buying BoE’s has been a thing since
Classic so if that’s your metric then the game has always been P2W.

Correct... but you've only been able to buy WoW gold "legally" since what, WoD? Yeah, just confirmed, launched in patch 6.1.2...

So to say "you've always been able to" is disingenuous, yes, we all know that, but the point of the OP is it's P2W like you can use real cash. P2W always referred to actual real money. If you can get a lot of in-game gold on your own, then good job, that's not P2W, though.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Is the best argument really "criminals have always existed, so it's okay if the crime becomes legalized"?

No it’s “the cops have been taking a cut and ignoring the crime so why are you suprised when they cut out the middle man and take all the profit instead of a cut”.

[Eurhetemec]

The comparison however ignores an aspect of the discussion, when discussing the legalization of weed, people generally attempt to provide some objective reason like it being not as addictive as other drugs or the fact that other substances such as alcohol are in fact legal.

However, the argument "people smoke weed, you might as well legalize it" is just bogus, the fact that crimes are being committed without having a 100% failsafe to prevent them is no basis to legalize it.

As I said, this isn't the place to have that discussion, because it's a very complex and nuanced argument that requires level heads and a serious lack of emotion to understand, and has multiple viable POVs. Both of those arguments could been seen as bogus or valid, depending on how you look at them, and you claiming one is bogus and the other isn't is an opinion you're welcome to, but isn't well-supported logically.

- - - Updated - - -

No it’s “the cops have been taking a cut and ignoring the crime so why are you suprised when they cut out the middle man and take all the profit instead of a cut”.

The state, not the cops. It's similar to legalizing alcohol and then putting a large sales tax. Which is exactly how it works. Blizzard are not "the cops". They're the entire mechanism of the state.

[Kralljin]

No it’s “the cops have been taking a cut and ignoring the crime so why are you suprised when they cut out the middle man and take all the profit instead of a cut”.

Go up to any *stupid* advertiser that asks you to join a sykpe call / discord, then suddenly receive a Gladiator Mount / Raid boost a few weeks later without any gold leaving your account.
You and anyone involved will be banned.

That's why boosters want to get in touch with people outside of Battle-net, because there Blizzard cannot track their communication.
If no suspicious chat logs exists, it is by default very difficult for Blizzard to prove there was Real money compensation, unless they modify Warden to track all of your activities, but then Blizzard will have one huge lawsuit coming their way.

I'm not saying Blizzard is doing everything in their power to stop them, but saying they're just looking the other way is far from the truth.

depending on how you look at them, and you claiming one is bogus and the other isn't is an opinion you're welcome to, but isn't well-supported logically.

No, the reasoning "people are doing it" is not a justification to legalize an action.
If you want to argue for the legalization of something, find better arguments, that's the point.
The same argument also exists on the other side when people say "It's illegal, therefore it should remain illegal", you should have better arguments than that.

If you want to argue that Blizzard should just straight up sell you a Gladiator mount and a Mythic loot box for 50€, go ahead.

[Lolites]

Then you're being willfully ignorant, and your opinion counts for less than nothing. If no one else's opinions matter because you refuse to even listen to them, much less consider them, then why are you even here?

didnt say no one else opinion matters, but someone who actualy MAKE MONEY of the content he creates will likely be biased to move towards the topics and conclusions that will earn him more...
its like watching tv news knowing the tv is financed by political party, will they be honest and truthful or biased towards their agenda? i think answer is clear, and its the same with content creators...

- - - Updated - - -

Except that it IS that powerful in actual practice. NOT sims. That's what we've been trying to tell you.

- - - Updated - - -



Except when it is. :/ But you refuse to listen to the practiced, experienced expert who would show you that data. So where does that leave things?

some half hour ago i was in underrot +12, there was war with TD rank 3 (he had the sword from hc Nzoth), it did whole 8.6% of his dps... so help me there, how is my experience from actual game wrong, but someone elses data that i have no way of verifying are right? WHY would i believe someone i dont know over my own eyes?

[rhorle]

Not really. Paying a sub merely opens the possibility of getting said items, buying them quite obviously guarantees it

Using a token merely opens the possibility of obtaining a BoE. It doesn't guarantee you one. Same thing.

[BrintoSFJ]

That's a really weird definition of pay-to-win considering most people define pay-to-win as "getting an advantage by investing money" or simply "having purchasable things that are not cosmetic".
It seems like you willingly defined pay-to-win in a way that would specifically exclude WoW from this definition.

People are stupid, plain and simple. Many people don't even consider gacha/lootboxes to be pay2win, they want more gacha/lootboxes in games, they believe it is perfectly normal to spend money and gain advantage instead of actually playing the bloody game. Just because people believe something doesn't mean it is right. There are people who still believe having white skin means they are superior. Use logic, cause and effect to determine what is what.

I have played more than a thousand pay2win games, including mobile games to perfectly know what I am talking about.

[Lolites]

Therefore it's not possible to say with certainty that BOE didn't influence token sales. For all we know the token sales might have dropped significantly without the availability of BOEs.

learn a bit about price trends and then return to me...

you are saying that the demand was at certain point, then dropped out of blue PRECISELY in the same time as it was increased by aproximately THE SAME AMOUNT by boes? and that is to you more likely than sales of token not increasing rapidly? bcs that is the only other option how price trend could remain relatively unchanged...

its like saying you didnt get hit by a car when you left your house bcs the meteor hit the car that would otherwise hit you, sure it is possible, but its more likely there just wasnt any car...

[Eurhetemec]

No, the reasoning "people are doing it" is not a justification to legalize an action.
If you want to argue for the legalization of something, find better arguments, that's the point.
The same argument also exists on the other side when people say "It's illegal, therefore it should remain illegal", you should have better arguments than that.

If you want to argue that Blizzard should just straight up sell you a Gladiator mount and a Mythic loot box for 50€, go ahead.

Literally no-one has made this argument: "No, the reasoning "people are doing it" is not a justification to legalize an action." so like, nice strawman I guess? Grats? What I have pointed out is that if legalizing something prevents harm, or reduces harm, it needs to be seriously considered.

And what's with the weird non-sequitur at the end there?

[Kralljin]

Literally no-one has made this argument

Then maybe check the post i've been replying to originally.

[Tident]

learn a bit about price trends and then return to me...

you are saying that the demand was at certain point, then dropped out of blue PRECISELY in the same time as it was increased by aproximately THE SAME AMOUNT by boes? and that is to you more likely than sales of token not increasing rapidly? bcs that is the only other option how price trend could remain relatively unchanged...

its like saying you didnt get hit by a car when you left your house bcs the meteor hit the car that would otherwise hit you, sure it is possible, but its more likely there just wasnt any car...

This also assumes blizzard doesn't have a hand on the wheel so to speak.

I find trying to infer things to a system we only have guess work to go on to be perilous.

[rhorle]

Therefore it's not possible to say with certainty that BOE didn't influence token sales. For all we know the token sales might have dropped significantly without the availability of BOEs.

https://wowtoken.info/

The same trends exist prior to 8.3. The existence of corruption BoE did not significantly impact token prices. Again you keep claiming their is a boogeyman under the bed just to further a viewpoint that is not backed up with easily verifiable information. It is also highly amusing you can say you can speculate with some certainty while saying that you can't possibly say with certainty. Make up your mind.

[SirCowdog]

didnt say no one else opinion matters, but someone who actualy MAKE MONEY of the content he creates will likely be biased to move towards the topics and conclusions that will earn him more...

And for the third time, I'm telling you that this specific video does not do that. Sure, maybe he's making some ad revenue or whatever. But the video in question is not some bullshit like you seem to think all youtube videos are.

some half hour ago i was in underrot +12, there was war with TD rank 3 (he had the sword from hc Nzoth), it did whole 8.6% of his dps... so help me there, how is my experience from actual game wrong, but someone elses data that i have no way of verifying are right? WHY would i believe someone i dont know over my own eyes?

Gosh, I don't know, maybe because you'd care to test your own experiences vs those of other perspectives?

Whatever. Do what you want. Your opinion means nothing to me at this point. I was trying to expand your horizons, maybe combat some ignorance. But go ahead and keep enjoying the darkness down there underneath the sand where your head is.

[Dystemper]

The gearing dynamic has completely changed in 8.3.

You can literally buy entire BiS sets of gear from the AH since 8.3

So yes, the switch to P2W was made in 8.3

It costs a shit ton of gold and dollars to do it though, but it's there since this patch.

Method literally spent 50k dollars on this patch, because they could.

This right here is why these Devs need to be fired