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  1. #101
    When mmo's first gained popularity, online multi player gaming as a whole was in its infancy. Now, pretty much everything has some form of online multiplayer. For those whose main attraction was competition and online gaming, WoW was a strong contender. Over the years, the options have grown substantially. Racing games, FPS, fighting, RPG, Sports, Indie - nearly all have countless online multiplayer options.

    Quality RPG releases over the years, some of the best in a long time over the last 5 or so years, have given those wanting a story driven RPG a superior alternative, in terms of story telling, gameplay, and visuals. Consoles have no doubt had an impact as well, with them producing stunning 4k visuals on massive screens and the comfort of your couch, that is pretty hard to resist.

    The competition is strong, alternatives are strong, and we are graced with more options than ever before.

    - RPG on both console and pc with far superior stories, visuals, and more engaging combat
    - Endless alternatives for online gaming in general
    - Competitive PvP is better suited to Mobas, and there are plenty of choices there as well
    - The lure of F2P games

    Players are were once condensed into wows playerbase because there was considered no real competition if you wanted a great multiplayer RPG, RPG pvp, strong story telling, decent visuals etc etc. But like i said, over the years, they have been surpassed in every aspect other than Raids, and even then, many prefer 'raiding' in other games (not me, havnt found anything close, although SWTOR showed some promise in this area)

    Once, WoW was an industry leader, and although its still no doubt successful, it is just one of the many options available now.

  2. #102
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttwitch View Post
    Sadly, they don't. Hence the 1.5 mill active subs.
    I would love a source for that number.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttwitch View Post
    Only an incompetent team cannot please most of the haters AND most of those who like the status-quo.
    You do know it's impossible to please both sides, even "most" of both sides, right? By trying to appease both sides, you'll end up appeasing neither.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Link proving that sub number, please.
    Do you really believe they have a link?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I would love a source for that number.
    Again, do you really think they have a source?

  4. #104
    if i was a teen in current year i would probably also avoid old clunky MMO's and play modern online games instead.

  5. #105
    Pandaren Monk Redroniksre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Do you really believe they have a link?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Again, do you really think they have a source?
    Of course they don't, everyone knows spreading sub numbers is basically pulling from your ass, since they aren't advertised anymore.

    That said, yeah the MMO market is in decline, especially for making them. MMOs cost a metric ton more than a regular game, and have even more in maintenance costs. Making a new one is a huge risk for any company trying to spread into it, and with a sub price especially you already have hard set competition. For the most part the big three (WoW, FFXIV, ESO) take up the majority of peoples time, but MMO's and forced group/online play is becoming less popular with people. Hell a lot of the newer ideologies in WoW are based on those from other, non-MMO games.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    Yes, it's probably in a decline and is nowhere near 12 million subscribers like Wrath had, that was quite literally an almost impossible feat and achievement for WoW and should be commended.

    But if you continuously tell Blizzard that the MMO market is dying and that's your reasoning for why WoW is in decline, you might as well be telling them to stop investing money in WoW. They are a business after all, and if they think a market is dying off, why would they continue spending money on development of a game for a dying market? If you care about the game at all, stop saying this.

    If you think that WoW is in a decline because of some bad game design decisions, then you still believe the game can be turned around with some better game design decisions and not be in a decline anymore.

    Which of these opinions do you think is more helpful for the game? Which person do you think cares more about the game, the one who thinks the MMO market is dying and WoW is in decline because of it and there's nothing that can be done to save it, or the person that thinks some better game design decisions can still turn the game around?

    Pick your battles wisely.
    MMO Market was never that big. The swollen 12m number was just word of mouth.

  7. #107
    "The MMO market is dying"

    If the video of the devs getting Booed about mobile games is any indication, it's not DYING, the stubborn jackasses pretending to be devs are KILLING it.

    "Don't you have phones?" Yes but I play on a PC and find mobile games boring and un-engaging.

  8. #108
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Again, do you really think they have a source?
    Oh, I am 99.9999999999% sure they don't have a link for actual numbers, but every once in a blue moon you get to see someone going "AH-HAH!" and showing a link... only for said link to be proven to either be fudged data, or incomplete data.

    I mean, I still remember when people used to use Warcraft Census and the now defunct RealmPop websites as source of actual information regarding subscriber and active players numbers.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    It pretty much is. Some people have apparently missed tho MOBA craze, replaced by the Battle Royale craze and who knows what will come next. Their popularity crushes whatever miniscule growth FF14 might have had, if any. Do they even post official numbers? WoW certainly doesn't, but people still keep spouting random numbers which supposedly prove their point.
    The only numbers they post are accounts made afaik.
    As of August 2018, 14m accounts. December 2019, 18m accounts. Thats about a 28% increase.
    Now, are the subs that high? No. I wanna say its around 1-3m and has been the case for a while but they haven’t ever released any sub numbers.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    Yes, it's probably in a decline and is nowhere near 12 million subscribers like Wrath had, that was quite literally an almost impossible feat and achievement for WoW and should be commended.

    Which of these opinions do you think is more helpful for the game? Which person do you think cares more about the game, the one who thinks the MMO market is dying and WoW is in decline because of it and there's nothing that can be done to save it, or the person that thinks some better game design decisions can still turn the game around?
    Or maybe the business model is in decline? Subscription based model is good. Look at the internet. Look at the phone. Look Netflix. All these are subscription based. So the business model is valid and good.

    Part of the problem I think is that Blizzard needs to continue to push regular content as part of their subscription model. A year long without meaningful content will cause decline. They also seems to mix different revenue streams within the game. Paid services like server change. That might have worked 10 years ago. Micro-transaction. Expansion cost.

    Now, expectation are higher and some would consider some of their services should be part of the subscription rather than an additional charge.

    I think Blizzard needs to revise their business model because I think many consider Blizzard to be milking their brand with all these additional charges. They really did not have much serious competition which made them sit too comfortable in their throne without worry.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    MMO Market was never that big. The swollen 12m number was just word of mouth.
    Not to mention the inflated number due to hour to hour subscription model in china.

  12. #112
    MMO genre is absolutely in decline. Just like MOBAs are. And soon to be the Battle Royale genre.

    These are essentially niche markets that experienced very explosive but temporary popularity. The "newness" is gone and the majority of gamers have moved on. In WoW's case its popularity was largely due to the success of WC3 but also that its release coincided with time that most Americans were switching from dial-up to high-speed internet.


  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwijello View Post
    "The MMO market is dying"

    If the video of the devs getting Booed about mobile games is any indication, it's not DYING, the stubborn jackasses pretending to be devs are KILLING it.

    "Don't you have phones?" Yes but I play on a PC and find mobile games boring and un-engaging.
    Imagine thinking mobile games are targeted at neckbeards attending a gaming convention.

    Their mistake was announcing it to an audience that was not the target, not doing it in the first place.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwijello View Post
    "The MMO market is dying"

    If the video of the devs getting Booed about mobile games is any indication, it's not DYING, the stubborn jackasses pretending to be devs are KILLING it.

    "Don't you have phones?" Yes but I play on a PC and find mobile games boring and un-engaging.
    Good for you, but mobile "gamers" outnumber pc gamers

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    Good for you, but mobile "gamers" outnumber pc gamers
    Not at a blizzcon. mobile gamers aren't gamers, they're people who play games when they have to wait somewhere or shit.

    that's why blizz was booed

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Flower Milk View Post
    But if you continuously tell Blizzard that the MMO market is dying and that's your reasoning for why WoW is in decline, you might as well be telling them to stop investing money in WoW. They are a business after all, and if they think a market is dying off, why would they continue spending money on development of a game for a dying market? If you care about the game at all, stop saying this.
    Because another 15 years of a declining marked where they pull out 100x as much as they invest, slowly declining to 1x is still earning a fuckton more money than just shutting it down at a whim. That's how businesses operate. Many businesses have periods where they sell at a loss because it's cheaper than halting production for the same time.

    Even if they reach a point where they don't pull out more than they put in, they might still continue just to keep customers until they're ready to launch a new product.

  17. #117
    LFR, transmog, 4 different dificulties of raids and realm phasing is what killed wow

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Tell me, if MMOs are in such a decline, why...

    a) FFXIV is getting bigger and better with each expansion

    and

    b) Classic was able to more than double (!) WoWs subscriber numbers during its release

    In general I agree, the genre is declining but it can be stopped if you do something about it. Turning your game into a grind fest ARPG or whatever like Blizzard did in BfA is not helping anyone. It basically ruined retail. The recent sub numbers are abysmal and so is most stuff that Blizzard throws out at the moment.
    that final fantasy was good to begin with is a opinion not a fact
    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    In other countries like Canada the population has chosen to believe in hope, peace and tolerance. This we can see from the election of the Honourable Justin Trudeau who stood against the politics of hate and divisiveness.

  19. #119
    I dont think its dying, its just stale. Running an MMO cost a lot, and right now theres no new ideas, and the ones with great ideas died off because of lack of content or meaningful changes i.e. wildstar, and secret world. Its also hard for new mmos to start up because marketing teams want products that have thr potential to make the most and so far the only ones are WoW and FFXIV with a few smaller games in tow.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Bumkin View Post
    LFR, transmog, 4 different dificulties of raids and realm phasing is what killed wow
    It may be something you dislike but LOTS of people love hunting for transmogs and many casual players ( the vast majority of wow players) do LFR to get the story without having to deal with organised raids and large guilds.

    For me personally, what is causing wow's decline is the grind expected /needed to function on the higher levels of the game, especially if you enjoy playing more than 1 character at a time. I wish many of the grindy things (AP, Essences, Rep) were for your account and not per character.

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