Is there any chance we could do away with the timer in M+? Alot of us don't like it.

[mcastillo88]

I think the timer is part of the challenge, but I think it would be cool to be able to downgrade and re-randomize a key.

For example: You get a Keystone 10 to Instance E. You could go to an NPC to bring it down to Keystone 9, but it would also change to Instance A-D.

[Voidwielder]

Tell me, ''do away with the timer'' crowd, would your actual game play change that much if it went away? Would you really take your time for every single pull, would you really sit down to eat from 80% HP and 50% mana just for another trio of mobs? No, you would not. People have always been interested in doing content as quickly as possible, especially if it's tedious like trash packs in dungeons. You already know that X mob does and how to avoid it. You already know what Y boss does and how to avoid his avoidable damage.

If your answer is ''well, just scale it up so that everything one shots and it requires perfect play whenever possible'' - it's already in game. The difference is that timer creates a requirement for you to actually succeed and to continue right away, instead of bashing your head against the wall for numerous attempts (at which point, you most likely will not finish the run anyway as someone will leave if faced with a 2 hour Freehold run).

Most of the arguments against the timer are inane and stem from frustrations that can be avoided if the player takes some responsibility and initiative for what he/she does in the game.

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For example: You get a Keystone 10 to Instance E. You could go to an NPC to bring it down to Keystone 9, but it would also change to Instance A-D.

We already had this in Legion and the first weeks of BfA and it lead to people (ab)using the system to avoid the ''undesirable'' keys. Some of it was out of legit frustrations as early SoTS and KR was just out of whack in terms of balance. When that happens, we absolutely should be throwing shit at Blizzard. But Mechagon has not had those problems and it looks like they've learned. I hope the same is true for Shadowlands dungeons.

Edit: And I saw some healer complaining about chainspulling and not being able to drink. As healer main who pugs only - talk with your tank, most will understand and will give you that 1 second ouf of combat which is all you need to go from 20% of mana to 50%. Once again, a lot of these ''issues'' can be solved if people take the initiative. Make a macro, spam it, make your intentions clear. That goes for every class and spec.

[Jester Joe]

It can be better. Learn to have an open mind.

Except this is change for changes sake.

"We don't like it" doesn't change that there are plenty of people who do like it.
And your suggested change kinda screws over people who do like it, since currently failed keys drop 2 pieces of gear.

[rhorle]

you obviously doesn’t even understand word “gamedesign” because there is no difference in GAMEdesign between different types of slotmachines

I suggest you actually go to a casino. Go and look at the various slot machines. They all have different designs to their games because they have different bonus rounds, different payouts, different mechanics etc. At the most basic level slot machines are slot machines. But to claim they are all the same is being naive.

A time limit and a timed run is exactly the same thing. Because a timed run is just a time limit on the run. You have X time to win or lose.

[Sliske]

if you are a gamedesigner and you cannot come up with a good idea just put into some shit a time limit and slap a leaderboard on top, stupid people will be happy as shit

worst take of the day

[Revamp Man]

It's not hard to grasp that players don't like doing content that's to easy and doesn't give much just so they can eventually do things they enjoy. However,this is more of a player problem rather than a problem with m+ itself...
I love m+ when it comes to pushing high keys, I hate pugging it because I have to grind lower keys until my RIO is enough for me to be able to start enjoying it... which means I just don't do m+ as much as I want.

You see the fun part is that you only have to grind about five low level dungeons until you start getting a key your self that is high in you then start using your own key


There’s not much grinding if you complete a +9 on time you then get a +8 and you can keep pushing you can create your own group and push your own key that is a problem with the players I agree


People don’t want to put in that little tiny teeny extra effort because they would rather someone else has the key someone else put in the effort to grind it how do you think people get those high keys

[Kumorii]

You see the fun part is that you only have to grind about five low level dungeons until you start getting a key your self that is high in you then start using your own key


There’s not much grinding if you complete a +9 on time you then get a +8 and you can keep pushing you can create your own group and push your own key that is a problem with the players I agree


People don’t want to put in that little tiny teeny extra effort because they would rather someone else has the key someone else put in the effort to grind it how do you think people get those high keys

You only have one key while there are 12 dungeons. You suggest only using my high key until it rolls into all dungeons? Seems very silly and potential to take a lot of times and a lot of dungeons...
Or you do like all other players and look for keys for the dungeon they want to do in conjuction of using their own. Thing is you attacked the argument from an assumption that's incorrect. I do have high key myself... What I don't have, and literally everyone else, is every key.

So that means "leeching" of off another person's through pugging. You know, the exact thing the game is intended for you to do, team up with others to do content.

If everyone just used their own key you wouldn't even be able to do a key since everyone should use their own. The design is literally 5 people using 1 persons key.

[Spotnick]

It's kind of easy to do actually. When you insert your key, pick "Timed" or "Not-Times" mode.. and introduce a currency. Timing a run would give the same amount of currency as completing the run 5 times at the same level, or split currency in 5 for each player, which is probably more fair.

So basically, grind your key upgrade, or time it.

[Zenfoldor]

I'm all for some version of removing the timer.

It really isn't about the timer or the practicality of how mythic+ currently stands. Instead it is about psychology. The psychology of losing.

Even if the reward is the same either way, in the group where the timer existed, once the time expired, someone would probably quit or leave, or at least complain about it. Even if it offered NO additional reward or had no meaning. Failing the timer is still failing, even if there is no consequence.

Remove the timer and there is no point which one can point to as the time in which losing occurred. In fact, it could be said that the entire team "won" just by completing the dungeon. This likely makes for a much more pleasant experience for all involved, from a toxicity perspective.

Now, I would think the counterargument to removing the timer is that sometimes it does everyone good to fail. That way they can feel rewarded when they win. That argument may be a valid one. However, we aren't discussing the value of having losers and winners in a spelling bee. We are talking about a game in which we are trying to entice new players to participate. Removing failure points through mechanical means, often results in a better play experience on average, which is why I think it might not be so bad.

[Revamp Man]

You only have one key while there are 12 dungeons. You suggest only using my high key until it rolls into all dungeons? Seems very silly and potential to take a lot of times and a lot of dungeons...
Or you do like all other players and look for keys for the dungeon they want to do in conjuction of using their own. Thing is you attacked the argument from an assumption that's incorrect. I do have high key myself... What I don't have, and literally everyone else, is every key.

So that means "leeching" of off another person's through pugging. You know, the exact thing the game is intended for you to do, team up with others to do content.

If everyone just used their own key you wouldn't even be able to do a key since everyone should use their own. The design is literally 5 people using 1 persons key.

You seem to think that I’m talking nearly about Store but I’m also talking about just doing the dungeon if people want to do a dungeon then grab your key and work it up every week you will have a high key every week you will be able to burn through that high key every week you will be able to increase your score there are 12 dungeons that means that every week when there is a random role for what dungeon you have you have less than a 10% chance to roll the same done can you just did

Now if you argue that you have to go for a specific Dunkin because you want to specific here then that is fine eventually once you show that you can do a +13 I am Magine your score will be home enough to be able to get it do you think that grinding dungeons even if they aren’t the one you need is a giant waste of time but that is how the system is designed you have to work for it if you want it immediately then just get the gold and buy a boost

[Kolvarg]

It just promotes rush rush rush gameplay, and sets up pugs for toxicity.

Maybe just add an option to run them with one chest at the end, without a timer? That keeps everyone happy.

Agree completely. It caters to a preference in playstyle but completely ignores that there's a whole set of people out there who enjoy challenging content without it being timed.

It doesn't even necessarily need to be a completely different mode with the timer off. Failing the timer could just mean increasing your key by 1 and getting only 1 or 2 items, while completing in time would award more items and a bigger key increase.

I always loved the idea of mythic dungeons, and mythic+ is a pretty good system to make that replayable, but ultimately it just seems unnecessarily stressful to me. It's one of the main reasons I despise Islands - the timer. If Islands had been 1-3 "scenarios" they would've been much more interesting.

One of the reasons Torghast actually sounds interesting to me is that it's kinda that, a timer-less mythic+.

[Tech614]

Enrage timers are just dps checks

Wrong, it's also about performing the fight optimally, finding the right pathing, knowing when you need to switch or don't. All of this very similar to navigating a M+ timer. I don't think you actually know much about raiding. You think limit pulled 20% more dps out of their ass in a 2 day span on N'Zoth? No, they optimized the fight better.

[Kumorii]

You seem to think that I’m talking nearly about Store but I’m also talking about just doing the dungeon if people want to do a dungeon then grab your key and work it up every week you will have a high key every week you will be able to burn through that high key every week you will be able to increase your score there are 12 dungeons that means that every week when there is a random role for what dungeon you have you have less than a 10% chance to roll the same done can you just did

It's 1 in 12 the first time, and the more dungeons you get done, the less chance you have of getting the exact dungeon you need...so once again, you have to rely on pugs more and more. Nor did you even adress the fact that there are 5 players on 1 key regardless of how you do it. The entire m+ system is designed to be done with others and using your key AND their keys. And since it goes 5 players on 1 key, or rather 4 players leeching of 1 players key the system actively promotes using other players keys more so than your own.

Now if you argue that you have to go for a specific Dunkin because you want to specific here then that is fine eventually once you show that you can do a +13 I am Magine your score will be home enough to be able to get it do you think that grinding dungeons even if they aren’t the one you need is a giant waste of time but that is how the system is designed you have to work for it if you want it immediately then just get the gold and buy a boost

And now we are back in that you have to farm useless low key dungeons, to get enough r.io so you can do higher dungeons in pugs so you can then do higher dungeons etc etc... it circles back to having to straight up USELESS and dull non challenging content to be able to do the content you want. Also, no that's not how the system was designed at all... r.io is it what designed that system which is a player made system outside of wow.

Sure, you can say suck it up and do the grind for it which is ok to have that opinion... but that doesn't change the fact it is what it is. Plenty find that boring and thus don't do as much m+ as they want to due to that fact.

[scelero]

I'm confused. Don't you get the same chest reward for ignoring the timer and just playing the dungeon out.

Happens often. Only time I've seen people outright leave is constantly deaths within the first half of the instance. If youre steady, consistent, and dont die... most people dont even bat an eye you wont make the timer.

[Revamp Man]

It's 1 in 12 the first time, and the more dungeons you get done, the less chance you have of getting the exact dungeon you need...so once again, you have to rely on pugs more and more. Nor did you even adress the fact that there are 5 players on 1 key regardless of how you do it. The entire m+ system is designed to be done with others and using your key AND their keys. And since it goes 5 players on 1 key, or rather 4 players leeching of 1 players key the system actively promotes using other players keys more so than your own.



And now we are back in that you have to farm useless low key dungeons, to get enough r.io so you can do higher dungeons in pugs so you can then do higher dungeons etc etc... it circles back to having to straight up USELESS and dull non challenging content to be able to do the content you want. Also, no that's not how the system was designed at all... r.io is it what designed that system which is a player made system outside of wow.

Sure, you can say suck it up and do the grind for it which is ok to have that opinion... but that doesn't change the fact it is what it is. Plenty find that boring and thus don't do as much m+ as they want to due to that fact.

So you are complaining that you have to do content that you deem useless because of lack of upgrades in order to do the content choirs upgrades but it’s only because of this player meet system that you have to do that useless content because people expect you to know the dungeon at a high-level in order to invite you because they don’t want to burn their key and you refuse to grind your own key because that would be boring and useless even though that grind is only needed one time


So you are complaining that you have to do content that you deem useless because of lack of upgrades in order to do the content choirs upgrades but it’s only because of this player meets system that you have to do that useless content because people expect you to know the dungeon at a high-level in order to invite you because they don’t want to burn their key and you refuse to grind your own key because that would be boring and useless even though that grind is only needed one time



What do you play this game again?

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I'm confused. Don't you get the same chest reward for ignoring the timer and just playing the dungeon out.

Happens often. Only time I've seen people outright leave is constantly deaths within the first half of the instance. If youre steady, consistent, and dont die... most people dont even bat an eye you wont make the timer.

Correct

I think the gripe OP has is that he wants into a +10 but won’t get invited and the short run to boost a key is beneath him

[Kumorii]

So you are complaining that you have to do content that you deem useless because of lack of upgrades in order to do the content choirs upgrades but it’s only because of this player meet system that you have to do that useless content because people expect you to know the dungeon at a high-level in order to invite you because they don’t want to burn their key and you refuse to grind your own key because that would be boring and useless even though that grind is only needed one time

Right, so now you are straight up ignoring everything that has been said? "Refuse to grind my own key"... how does that even make sense when I told you earlier that I have my own high key(s)? Good talk.
Not even sure why you get so defensive and salty about me not liking an aspect which results in me doing less than I want to in content I find enjoyable. Hell, I even throw you a bone. I don't even know how this can be solved. I definitely understand why people have r.io and use it so much, I understand people don't like botched runs and want to separate the gems from the trash... STILL doesn't change the fact that said part of grinding low keys is a boring aspect that's put people off, including me.

What do you play this game again?

Raids. Not even sure how this is relevant unless you for some reason think that the only reason to play is to do low key runs... which is a small aspect...a very small aspect in fact.

[bullseyed]

Without the timer, the players doing the dungeon wouldn't have the expectation to run it on time nor the pressure of that time even existing, and it would be more difficulty than the default Mythic.

If you're inviting people who intend to time it when you are not intending to time it, maybe stop scamming people in violation of the ToS?

[Netherspark]

I wanted a return to hard dungeons ever since TBC ended, but I always hated Mythic+ because of the timer (and the weekly chest) and
I outright refuse to play it.

This is not what I wanted. This is not fun.

[docterfreeze]

Wrong, it's also about performing the fight optimally, finding the right pathing, knowing when you need to switch or don't. All of this very similar to navigating a M+ timer. I don't think you actually know much about raiding. You think limit pulled 20% more dps out of their ass in a 2 day span on N'Zoth? No, they optimized the fight better.

But optimizing uptime, doing mechanics efficiently, that all comes down to optimizing dps. In the end it's still a dps check, and optimizing your strategy is just as important as upgrading your gear. On other bosses enrage timers were much less of a threat, and as we get better gear they will cease to be a threat entirely. Not the case with m+, the timer is always the goal.

[Popokolara]

Where is the trash timer for mythic raids? There isn't one.

You mention boss enrage timers for raids. Why can't mythic+ bosses have an enrage timer? You're not listing problems. You're just listing new solutions.

The reason for timing a key is prestige. If LFR nukes your desire to do mythic raids, that's a "you" problem, not a game problem.

Just stop replying to this thread. This isn't about changing your timed mythic+. That already exists. This is about a new system that doesn't work the same way.



They're asking for chess, and you're offering them checkers. Just stop replying. You obviously don't understand the concept.

Because , just maybe, using 2 brain cells to think, m+ is NOT ONE encounter where you pump all cds. It is many smaller encounters and you need to manage your cds to have enough for each problem.
Instead of enrage for each pack you have total timer. in fact its easier. do you know how hard things would be for pugs if you have enrage in each pull?
this is pure absolute QQ. and i am NOT a mythic runder of high keys nor do i have an elitist premade grp. i pug solely.