WOW- Now pay to win?

[nocturnus]

Because how the community behaves as a whole often effects the way in which the game is designed in the future. If a great enough number of people become willing to accept lower quality products, but pay a higher price, guess what the corporation is going to sell?

Could you give an example of how this (arguably flawed) logic would translate into wow in practice?

The reason why people get so bent about Timmy buying a full set of gear is because Timmy then goes into the M+ scene and starts demanding that everyone else do the same.

Can you even buy a full set of qualitatively high-tier gear? "Everyone else"? I assume you mean the people he elects to have in his group. Why is it a problem that Timmy has demands in regards to whom he plays with?

Do you see the cause and effect here? The more Timmy's there are, the more the game begins to shift to buying gear instead of playing the game for gear. Until we eventually end up with what amounts to little more than a mobile gacha game filled with more P2W elements than anything else.

As I said, I haven't played wow in a very long time, but back in my day, websites were flooded with full BT toons for sale, yet only a fraction of wow's population made use of said 'services'. I suspect it's also a fraction of wow's population that buys one or two items from the AH right now. Do you have evidence that shows the contrary?

[Torgent]

I can't remember BoEs being objectively better than anything you could get inside the raid though

Given that the BoEs come from.....the raid.....your argument is invalid.

[nocturnus]

Given that the BoEs come from.....the raid.....your argument is invalid.

You know what he meant though, right? Arguing semantics is a bit stupid in this case.

[Snowfunk]

If you consider this to be p2w, then WoW has been so since Vanilla.

[Tident]

If you consider this to be p2w, then WoW has been so since Vanilla.

I think people are arguing degrees here. Yes you could buy powerful items in the past but never before were they so scarce or reliant on luck.

I can understand the frustration of having what is equivalent to a third trinkets worth of dps locked behind million gold or lots of rng.

[Accendor]

is there anyone apart from guilds trying to compete for world first like Method or Limit actualy wiling to spend some 80-120euro to buy single item?
if so, i pity the fool

is there anyone apart from guilds trying to compete for world first like Method or Limit actualy wiling to spend some 80-120euro to buy single item?
if so, i pity the fool

I mean currently a +15 boost costs around 800k on most european servers, which is roughly 70-80 Euro in token and that also is very close the prices of 3rd party websites that break the TOS and there you are not even guaranteed an item you actually need or want to have.

[Torgent]

But not anyone can kill things in the raid. Anyone can buy a BoE. Think.

Actually, basically anyone can kill things in the raid. There are mythic trash runs all the time. Also the BoEs aren't better than the normal drops, they are equal to the normal boss drops. So either way, you're wrong.

[rhorle]

What you're saying is so disjointed and incoherent it doesn't even make sense. You're wrong. Buying a token for a BoE is pay to win. Paying for a sub is not

But according to you it is.

Not really. Paying a sub merely opens the possibility of getting said items, buying them quite obviously guarantees it

Buying gold with a token only opens up the possibility of getting a BoE because you are not buying it directly. It still requires someone else to have the drop. Which is exactly what you said paying a sub offers, the possibility of getting said items.

[Tident]

1. Your opinion
2. Objectively incorrect

Tell me how a 450-470 corrupted BoE is better than a 445? Please, actually think before you reply - or I'm not gonna waste my time on someone who isn't honest or present enough to do so

Well... it's better because you can pick your best corruption right off that bat. The damage of that is roughly equivalent to a third trinket.

The problem with praying for a drop is corruption while not rare is uncommon and the odds of procing your best corruption assuming all corruptions have the same chance of procing ( I don't but for arguments sake let's say they do) that is a 1 in 52 chance....

I don't know the % rate of corruption from all sources but I would hazard a guess its roughly a one in three hundred drop for the specific one you want.

[rhorle]

But not anyone can kill things in the raid. Anyone can buy a BoE. Think.

Its not like BoE farming is new. There have been raids for a while that farm the easy to kill trash for people to sell BoE items.

[Torgent]

1. Your opinion
2. Objectively incorrect

Tell me how a 450-470 corrupted BoE is better than a 445? Please, actually think before you reply - or I'm not gonna waste my time on someone who isn't honest or present enough to do so

What is my opinion? That there are mythic trash runs all the time? That's not an opinion. They are common.
Also it's not objectively incorrect. They are literally on par with the raid gear because.....they are raid gear. They have the same ilvl as raid gear because....they are raid gear. Pretty dishonest to say "It's better to raid gear" then compare mythic BoE to Raid Finder gear lmao.

[Tident]

Its not like BoE farming is new. There have been raids for a while that farm the easy to kill trash for people to sell BoE items.

The scope and impact of those boes had never been so high. They make or break certain modes of pvp and pve.

I feel this is a over sight on blizzards part but I really hope systems like this are discontinued. The community has spoken on this topic already they desired a removal not a rework.

[rhorle]

The scope and impact of those boes had never been so high. They make or break certain modes of pvp and pve. I feel this is a over sight on blizzards part but I really hope systems like this are discontinued. The community has spoken on this topic already they desired a removal not a rework.

But that doesn't change something being pay to win or not. Also the "community" hasn't spoken about anything if people in this very thread can't even agree on stuff. It is always funny when people think they are everything just because they share opinions with vocal streamers.

[Tident]

But that doesn't change something being pay to win or not. Also the "community" hasn't spoken about anything if people in this very thread can't even agree on stuff. It is always funny when people think they are everything just because they share opinions with vocal streamers.

I don't watch streamers but who exactly is enjoying this system? Mythic raiders are annoyed that a dice roll determines if they are competitive or a cool million gold. Pvpers despise this sorts of systems from the get go. Their biggest demand has been to have a vendor return with static gear...

The system as it stands now is broken. You can have a blue world quest item outdamaning a mythic raid one. Now granted that requires certain circumstances to achieve but the gap is only lowered to normal raid if you take out the optimal requirement.

I can't really fathom a player base beyond those who find farming trash relaxing enjoying such a system. It actively breaks the game...

[xuros]

Then every game in the history of people trading in game items for in game currency has been PTW since the start.

[kail]

If you consider this to be p2w, then WoW has been so since Vanilla.

WoW tokens did not exist in Vanilla. If you're directing to gold selling sites that fall out of their ToS, then every game is P2W.

P2W is something that is available within the game, like WoW tokens or the RMAH back in early D3. I don't consider it too much of an issue when BoE's are far off from BiS gear in the game and WoW tokens are the reason I've played WoW as it adds incentive to make gold to play (just a thing I enjoy), but it's idiotic to deny that buying power is a P2W feature.

- - - Updated - - -

Then every game in the history of people trading in game items for in game currency has been PTW since the start.

Real money is what makes something P2W.

[kaintk]

spending 200-1000 $ for item you will not use in a few months lol

people are so dumb sometime, but, hey ! its their cash after all

[Depakote]

It's been the case ever since the idiotic token was unveiled.

[SirCowdog]

Blizzards recent history however on the addition of alternate power system doesn't speak in their favor as far as "carefully planned" is concerned.

Artifacts: Nobody thought about the "post" Legion aspect.
Legendaries: Let's just disable the bad luck protection after ~4 Legendaries, what could go wrong; Also let's make some entirely utility based and others pure throughput!
Azerite: That doesn't seem to work; well, we're too deep in development already, so we can't change it
Essences: What about Alts? (To be fair, it's the most functional one of any list here)
Benthic: We checked that those tokens can't Titanforge but can proc tertiary stats, i'm sure we didn't forget anything...
Corruption: Well yeah...

Like really, any system related to player power introduced since Legion had some sort of huge blunder in there.

Is it coincidental on corruption, maybe it is, maybe not, but as said, if Shadowlands is not different on that front, that's your confirmation.

I guess I remain super skeptical. The points you're making are from a design perspective focused on player enjoyment and gameplay balance, which Blizzard has proven are secondary to profitability. So things don't appear to be "carefully planned" when you look at it from that direction.

Maybe that's just the pessimist in me speaking(I'm actually an optimist in general, but Blizzard and the AAA industry has a proven track record in this regard). But you're right that how Shadowlands works out will be a telling factor. I only caution you to slot it into a longer line of behavior, and not view it in a short-term vacuum.

- - - Updated - - -

Could you give an example of how this (arguably flawed) logic would translate into wow in practice?

Anchoring expectations is a known tactic in sales. A good example would be the case of Personal Loot vs Master Loot. Despite the arguments on both sides, Personal loot was pushed through due to vocal outcry. Now how often do people even think about Master Loot? Cosmetic loot boxes being a normal thing that many people now defend as being harmless is maybe a better example.

Can you even buy a full set of qualitatively high-tier gear? "Everyone else"? I assume you mean the people he elects to have in his group. Why is it a problem that Timmy has demands in regards to whom he plays with?

I highly recommend that you watch the Preach video on the effects of corrupted gear. But as for why it's a problem what demands Timmy has? You clearly haven't seen the rampant elitism in the public group finder. Asking for gear and achievement requirements that are double what the run actually needs is commonplace! To be fair, it's a condition that existed before corrupted gear. But corrupted BOEs are only going to make it worse.

As I said, I haven't played wow in a very long time, but back in my day, websites were flooded with full BT toons for sale, yet only a fraction of wow's population made use of said 'services'. I suspect it's also a fraction of wow's population that buys one or two items from the AH right now. Do you have evidence that shows the contrary?

There are a number of factors that have changed since the days of TBC. The market for F2P and P2W has increased drastically. The overall atmostphere and environment of what's acceptable and normal has likewise changed. Buying items in-game with real money has become a growing concern in the entire gaming industry, as illustrated by the Battlefront 2 fiasco with EA, among many other cases.

People buying in-game items and cosmetics with real money is more or less an accepted norm for many people. Whales are a reality of gaming, and with Activision-Blizzard's increased focus on the mobile market(and associated business models), you can see the influence in wow with more paid cash shop items than ever before. I have ZERO personal doubts that all of these BOEs being dropped into the game are a test or data-gathering experiment by Blizzard. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not.

[Torgent]

1. I've not seen a single mythic trash farm for nya'lotha, because you have to kill wrathion before you get to any trash to my knowledge
2. Few player have access to heroic BoEs, even fewer to Mythic ones - and no, the corrupted BoEs that this thread is based on will be considerably better than any raid gear that doesn't corrupt (so nearly all raid gear)
3. 445 is normal, 430 is lfr

Do you know anything about the game?

Sorry, I don't raid normal. If you're comparing mythic boes to normal, then you're hopeless in this argument.
Also: Raid drops can also drop corrupted, so you clearly don't know what you're talking about.