Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[cubby]

But somebody lying isn't making a flub. Its lying. And its a valid thing to point out. Especially when its being used to compare yourself to another candidate who actually does have a track record of being a fighter for minority rights.

I'm not saying Biden does not have a track record at all either, by the way, but making up stories is just bad form.

If we're going to (rightly) call out Trump for lying we can't just let candidates we like get away with it too. Not all lies are equal but lying about really easily found information is just a dumb strategy.

Calling him out on it is fine, and he was called out on it, and his campaign admitted the mistake. This is all a good thing - this is how we want the political process to work. Candidates admitting errors instead of doubling down on stupidity.

I'm not arguing any part of what Biden did.

I'm arguing that how we are handling is bad.

[-aiko-]

Lying is lying. It seems a bit hypocritical to criticize Trump for his many, many lies but then give Biden a pass, calling his lie a 'flub'.

[Omega10]

I admire a lot about Biden. I think that when he does things like have heart-to-heart conversations about his stutters, he's in his top form. Seeing him talk with kids who have stutters and reassure them that its not a disability is really heartwarming and puts a smile on my face. That's the part of Biden that I really like and admire.

Thank you

I have read a few speeches that he gave, and they are in the same vein as the story you just told. The problem is that I read the speech... go WOW that was great... and then later I can't find that speech or any mention of it or any follow up.

He had so much time where he could have played up these really awesome qualities. If he becomes the democratic nominee, hopefully he will give us enough of this awesomeness so that we can not just bash Trump, but can also praise our candidate.

You cannot beat something with nothing.

[Themius]

then understand that it cuts both ways. the GOP won't have as many checks on their ability to oppress people.

The GOP isn't a majority. They're literally a dying minority. We currently have minority rule.

[cubby]

What other candidate has repeatedly confused or made up stories other than Biden? They've had occasional missteps, but most haven't had anywhere near the issues Biden has had. The only one I can think of off the top of my head was Warren and her story about being fired for being pregnant...and that was largely promoted by conservative sites trying to "GOTCHA" her because they didn't list "fired for being preggers" in their records when she was let go. Because you know, that's totes something an organization would do and is totes not something that pregnant women have repeatedly faced.

Can you quantify that claim?

And that alone is a far cry from making up a story about being arrested for trying to meet Nelson Mandela. Or confusing 3 different stories about a trip to the Middle East and rolling them all into one mish-mash. Or undisciplined comments like "lying dog faced pony soldier" or "My time is up."

This is the ignorance that you are working from I mentioned above. Did you even read the clarification from his campaign. The event he said happened, he just wasn't arrested, merely separated when others were. And it was 40+ years ago - easy for details to get mixed up.

Again, gaffes. Not mental errors. Why are you helping the GOP?

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Lying is lying. It seems a bit hypocritical to criticize Trump for his many, many lies but then give Biden a pass, calling his lie a 'flub'.

Is there no room for your draconian opinions for correcting mistakes and admitting errors?

I would say that the details of this lie/error/flub were critical to the story, and he fucked it up, no doubt. But the campaign corrected it, admitting a mistake. I would argue we need to encourage that kind of behavior in our candidates - this is exactly what we want from our leaders, people who can admit errors and move on.

[starlord]

The GOP isn't a majority. They're literally a dying minority. We currently have minority rule.

i've been referring to congress. yes its not fair etc but that is the current situation.

[arandomuser]

So is bloomberg what i hear about all the time from "dissafected liberals" that the democratic party was before political correctness and the much maligned" social justice" became mainstream? I know bloomberg is acting super woke now hes a dem candidate but his statements in past are very questionable, and if we bring it up were told by the clinton people like james carville were being divisive. https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4...e-wants-to-win Id still vote for bloomberg on the off chance hes the nominee( no one thought trump would be the R nominee)

[Yoshingo]

So is bloomberg what i hear about all the time from "dissafected liberals" that the democratic party was before political correctness and the much maligned" social justice" became mainstream?

Bloomberg is a Republican who switched in under 2 years and is trying to buy an election.

So, no.

[Edge-]

Can you quantify that claim?

I mean...how? Do you want me to post all the times they didn't make shit up? How would that even work?

This is the ignorance that you are working from I mentioned above. Did you even read the clarification from his campaign.

Yes, but let's look at Biden's initial claim -

Earlier this month in South Carolina, a state where nearly a third of the population is black and Biden supporters claim he will prevail, the former vice president said, “I had the great honor of being arrested with our U.N. ambassador on the streets of Soweto trying to get to see [Mandela] on Robben Island.”

As the Times noted, Soweto is more than 700 miles away from Robben Island, where Mandela was being held. Andrew Young, who was the U.N. Ambassador at the time, told the Times he was not arrested with Biden.

“No, I was never arrested and I don’t think he was, either,” Young told the paper.

So he made up being arrested, got confused about locations, and made up our Ambassador to the U.N. being arrested as well.

The event he said happened, he just wasn't arrested, merely separated when others were. And it was 40+ years ago - easy for details to get mixed up.

I'd think that he'd remember being arrested pretty well, or that he'd want to revisit his memory before telling these stories.

Again, gaffes. Not mental errors. Why are you helping the GOP?

A gaffe would be saying that he was separated while going to see "Melson Nandela" or something akin to that. A gaffe would be him mixing up locations a bit.

A gaffe is not him making up that he and our U.N. Ambassador was arrested. That's a mental error.

And I'm not "helping the GOP", unless you think that we shouldn't be critical of any Democratic candidate as criticism = GOP support.

And that's some authoritarian style bullshit right there, if so.

[cubby]

But somebody lying isn't making a flub. Its lying. And its a valid thing to point out. Especially when its being used to compare yourself to another candidate who actually does have a track record of being a fighter for minority rights.

I'm not saying Biden does not have a track record at all either, by the way, but making up stories is just bad form.

If we're going to (rightly) call out Trump for lying we can't just let candidates we like get away with it too. Not all lies are equal but lying about really easily found information is just a dumb strategy.

I would personally disagree with it being an outright lie, however, let's set that aside. He fucked up, was called out on it, and then admitted the error. Isn't that what we want in our candidates? Admitting mistakes, not doubling down on lies?

[Omega10]

isn't that what you meant by continually handwaving that legislation requires compromise on many levels?

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biden's not promising to disrupt a large part of the economy for something that would also potentially jeopardize many of his allies.

My apologies. I misstated what you said. I should have looked it up before typing it. I should have typed "not promising to disrupt a large part of the economy".

[nonameelf]

So is bloomberg what i hear about all the time from "dissafected liberals" that the democratic party was before political correctness and the much maligned" social justice" became mainstream? I know bloomberg is acting super woke now hes a dem candidate but his statements in past are very questionable, and if we bring it up were told by the clinton people like james carville were being divisive. https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4...e-wants-to-win

No. Bloomberg is a Republican who swapped over just for this election.

Most of the candidates running for Democrat nominee are threading the line between addressing minority issues and avoiding the insanity of SJW activists.

[Omega10]

Lying is lying. It seems a bit hypocritical to criticize Trump for his many, many lies but then give Biden a pass, calling his lie a 'flub'.

If he is the nominee, this story will be repeated frequently.

[Yoshingo]

I would personally disagree with it being an outright lie, however, let's set that aside. He fucked up, was called out on it, and then admitted the error. Isn't that what we want in our candidates? Admitting mistakes, not doubling down on lies?

Yes but are we not allowed to talk about the fact that he did lie? I don't know what your endgame here is with your point. You admit that its good that somebody admits they were wrong, and I agree, but then get mad when people bring it up.

Its not like its news from years ago people are bringing up.

[cubby]

I mean...how? Do you want me to post all the times they didn't make shit up? How would that even work?

No, you turkey () - other candidates flub's. Other times they have fucked up and made a mistake compared to Biden. You said "many more" so let's see the numbers. There must be something you're pulling that opinion from other than just your frontal lobe, right?

Yes, but let's look at Biden's initial claim -

Earlier this month in South Carolina, a state where nearly a third of the population is black and Biden supporters claim he will prevail, the former vice president said, “I had the great honor of being arrested with our U.N. ambassador on the streets of Soweto trying to get to see [Mandela] on Robben Island.”

As the Times noted, Soweto is more than 700 miles away from Robben Island, where Mandela was being held. Andrew Young, who was the U.N. Ambassador at the time, told the Times he was not arrested with Biden.

“No, I was never arrested and I don’t think he was, either,” Young told the paper.

So he made up being arrested, got confused about locations, and made up our Ambassador to the U.N. being arrested as well.

I'd think that he'd remember being arrested pretty well, or that he'd want to revisit his memory before telling these stories.

The only thing he was confused about was getting arrested, not "making it up", but just misremembering the events. He was "separated" from other people in his party, and it was by the police. 45 years ago. That is easy to mix up - I actually know from personal experience when I crossed into Africa from Malaga/Spain. That was a fun fucking 30 minutes.

The location wasn't anything confusing. He was on his way to where Mandela was, he didn't say he was where Mandela was being held.

A gaffe would be saying that he was separated while going to see "Melson Nandela" or something akin to that. A gaffe would be him mixing up locations a bit.

A gaffe is not him making up that he and our U.N. Ambassador was arrested. That's a mental error.

And I'm not "helping the GOP", unless you think that we shouldn't be critical of any Democratic candidate as criticism = GOP support.

And that's some authoritarian style bullshit right there, if so.

I'm not saying anything about criticizing him. Do it to your hearts content. I'm saying make it constructive, keep it accurate, cut them some slack, and do so accurately. And stop using GOP labels.

Or do you not want candidates to admit their errors? Can you admit yours? Have you been wrong in these forums before? Did you admit it?

[Omega10]

What other candidate has repeatedly confused or made up stories other than Biden? They've had occasional missteps, but most haven't had anywhere near the issues Biden has had. The only one I can think of off the top of my head was Warren and her story about being fired for being pregnant...and that was largely promoted by conservative sites trying to "GOTCHA" her because they didn't list "fired for being preggers" in their records when she was let go. Because you know, that's totes something an organization would do and is totes not something that pregnant women have repeatedly faced.

And that alone is a far cry from making up a story about being arrested for trying to meet Nelson Mandela. Or confusing 3 different stories about a trip to the Middle East and rolling them all into one mish-mash. Or undisciplined comments like "lying dog faced pony soldier" or "My time is up."

Apparently Biden used this phrase before?

[cubby]

Yes but are we not allowed to talk about the fact that he did lie? I don't know what your endgame here is with your point. You admit that its good that somebody admits they were wrong, and I agree, but then get mad when people bring it up.

Its not like its news from years ago people are bringing up.

Labeling it a lie is troublesome for me. You can argue it wasn't a lie, but a misremembering of facts. REGARDLESS - we should bring it up, and criticize it - definitely. But don't use unfounded labels. Don't call them mental errors - those are GOP labels.

Biden fucked up, admitted the error, and moved on. That is precisely the behavior we want from leaders.

[Zan15]

So is bloomberg what i hear about all the time from "dissafected liberals" that the democratic party was before political correctness and the much maligned" social justice" became mainstream? I know bloomberg is acting super woke now hes a dem candidate but his statements in past are very questionable, and if we bring it up were told by the clinton people like james carville were being divisive. https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4...e-wants-to-win Id still vote for bloomberg on the off chance hes the nominee( no one thought trump would be the R nominee)

lol PC and SJ was mainstream in the 80's and 90's, only trailed off in the 00's. Were you not alive back then? Today's PC/SW as you call it is Amature hour vs back then. Mostly spear headed by right wing angelical Christians and their offshoots.

But hey they are not done yet

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/2/...on-pornography

SALT LAKE CITY — A bill requiring pornography to carry a warning label about the harmful effects of exposure the state believes it can have on minors was approved by a House Judiciary Committee on Tuesday.

Brammer said the language is based on the resolution declaring pornography a public health crisis passed in 2016.

[Yoshingo]

Labeling it a lie is troublesome for me. You can argue it wasn't a lie, but a misremembering of facts. REGARDLESS - we should bring it up, and criticize it - definitely. But don't use unfounded labels. Don't call them mental errors - those are GOP labels.

Biden fucked up, admitted the error, and moved on. That is precisely the behavior we want from leaders.

When you 'misremember' something that just completely didn't happen...that's just a lie.

Calling it 'misremembering' is just you doing the thing you're accusing people like Edge of doing, that being using language that's too harsh to fit the situation, but just from the opposite angle. You're using language that's not harsh enough to fit the situation, seemingly because you like and/or support him?

I donno it seems like such a stupid topic to get that invested in all ways around.

Personally THIS is what gives aid to the Republicans. When we blow up every single tiny issue into a days+ 'news'cycle. And its not because it's giving Republicans help, its because its cementing divides in the base. Like when Sanders' (someone who I admire and is my #2 pick) supporters went absolutely fucking insane the second Warren even REMOTELY criticizes Sanders and points out the differences in her plan. That's another example.

Its not just the people who freakout and go on the attack, its also people freaking out on the defense and then becoming the next round of the freakout aggressors.

[I Push Buttons]

Labeling it a lie is troublesome for me. You can argue it wasn't a lie, but a misremembering of facts. REGARDLESS - we should bring it up, and criticize it - definitely. But don't use unfounded labels. Don't call them mental errors - those are GOP labels.

Biden fucked up, admitted the error, and moved on. That is precisely the behavior we want from leaders.

Could have been the genuine truth in his mind.

I know tons of people (people my age, late 20s) who have been repeating lies, especially to themselves, so long that the lie is their truth. People who embellished stories (to events I was personally witness to) to make themselves look better/make someone else look worse and its just been so many years and so many embellishments that, as far as their brain is concerned, that's actually what happened because neither I nor anyone ever called them out on it. And if we did it now, they'd probably dispute it.