Shadowlands paladin changes

[Varx]

Absolutely not!

That was how our mastery was at the beginning of Cataclysm; trying to dps was horrendously agonizing until they fixed it to what it is now (approximately)

By all means, DP baseline, but let it remain about the same proc chance as well as keep our holy damage scaled up through mastery

Proc was low in cata and only CS generated hp. Im talking just take current DP and bake it into our current mastery in addition to the holy dmg increase. Additional mastery would also increase the chance.

[Sigxy]

Auras are just boring to me. Fire and forget buffs that visually do very little and mechanically do very little as well. Sure you're playing out the fantasy of supporting others I guess, but it's very lackluster feeling.

While auras aren't the most interactive thing to use, I always cared about the theme of a class. Having a paladin arrive with his aura to enhance his allies by just having him present, even if the effect isn't great, fits the theme nice.

[threads]

we need pre-legion animations for ret. played a mop ret few days ago and forgot how much better they felt. new animations are so corny and the lame floppy wings bother me a lot.

also LONG ARM OF THE LAW

[Elkas]

Divine purpose should be baseline, chance increased by mastery.

Replace DP talent with vision of perfection copy cat.

Ret proc monsters during wod tier 1 were the most fun the spec has ever been.

WoD ret was a rng piece of shit, if you cared anything about your performance. Unless you get off on buttons randomly lighting up, it was nothing but frustrating. Doubly so for AoE.

[Varx]

WoD ret was a rng piece of shit, if you cared anything about your performance. Unless you get off on buttons randomly lighting up, it was nothing but frustrating. Doubly so for AoE.

Yeah it was heavy on RNG but it was fun as fuck. It was rare that I had an unlucky streak. And AoE was a blast with final verdict and DS procs. God i loved that giant boss in foundry with the hands that would come out of the ground.

[threads]

Yeah it was heavy on RNG but it was fun as fuck. It was rare that I had an unlucky streak. And AoE was a blast with final verdict and DS procs. God i loved that giant boss in foundry with the hands that would come out of the ground.

it was only fun with proc streaks. aoe was either great or horrible if you had no procs. the dps wasnt very consistent at all.

[Wrecktangle]

WoD ret was a rng piece of shit, if you cared anything about your performance. Unless you get off on buttons randomly lighting up, it was nothing but frustrating. Doubly so for AoE.

Disregarding numbers entirely for a second, WoD Ret was an incredibly engaging and fun to play iteration IMO. Now that said during progression on Mythic Blackhand (~ US 80th) I do remember having issues with the numbers so you're not wrong there, but I don't think you should let numbers get in the way of engagement/fun. The numbers COULD be tuned better.

we need pre-legion animations for ret. played a mop ret few days ago and forgot how much better they felt. new animations are so corny and the lame floppy wings bother me a lot.

also LONG ARM OF THE LAW

I do miss Final Verdict animation (and 10yd range), but I am in the minority that actually really likes the Blade of Justice animation so I'd like to keep that. I do miss LAotL everyday though lol.

[lunethzero]

It would be really nice if they cleaned up the talents. There are so many ret talents that have been DoA even more so than legion, and that was when only crusade was the viable talent due to the other two being horribly bad and one being completely useless. (Holy Wrath)

[Very Tired]

Yeah they should really target and change talents that aren't being used at all. Every holy pally uses devotion aura, and that's been the case in Legion as well. No one uses Light's Hammer or Awakening. Why not buff or change those talents so we can feel an actual urge to change them sometime with different options to choose from.

Other than that, I wish they would change the holy mastery. Stop trying to make holy the melee healers.

[StrawberryZebra]

While auras aren't the most interactive thing to use, I always cared about the theme of a class. Having a paladin arrive with his aura to enhance his allies by just having him present, even if the effect isn't great, fits the theme nice.

I'm curious - What do you think that aura is signaling to other players thematically?

Is it the inspirational effect of being in close proximity to someone with such strong faith in the light?
Is it the effects of being protected by the Paladin?
Is it supposed to signify that the Paladin is a leader who is taking command of the situation and organising your forces better?
Does it even tell other players they should stop what they're doing because it's hammer time?

Theme is a very subjective matter. Someone who considers the Paladin to be the specialist at killing Undead and Demons is going to have a very different idea of what is thematically appropriate to someone who thinks of the Paladin as being the bane of all evil and raining righteous vengence upon them or to someone who thinks of the Paladin as being the protector of the innocent and champion to those in need.

Getting auras right thematically in a way that suits all of those differing ideas is a tall order.

[Sigxy]

I'm curious - What do you think that aura is signaling to other players thematically?

Is it the inspirational effect of being in close proximity to someone with such strong faith in the light?
Is it the effects of being protected by the Paladin?
Is it supposed to signify that the Paladin is a leader who is taking command of the situation and organising your forces better?
Does it even tell other players they should stop what they're doing because it's hammer time?

Theme is a very subjective matter. Someone who considers the Paladin to be the specialist at killing Undead and Demons is going to have a very different idea of what is thematically appropriate to someone who thinks of the Paladin as being the bane of all evil and raining righteous vengence upon them or to someone who thinks of the Paladin as being the protector of the innocent and champion to those in need.

Getting auras right thematically in a way that suits all of those differing ideas is a tall order.

And this is where Blizzard failed since Legion. Those things are easily done.

It all depends what spec you are. All paladins should empower allies by their presence - but the different types that you brought up should depend on the spec of the paladin (and potentially the aura). \o/

[FluFF]

I'd give my left nut for old divine storm animation. ( and in lesser extend long arm of the law speed boost and final verdict animation + range )

[StrawberryZebra]

It all depends what spec you are. All paladins should empower allies by their presence - but the different types that you brought up should depend on the spec of the paladin (and potentially the aura). \o/

I'd have considered that Blessings were what the Paladin used to Empower their allies. Paladin Auras have usually either been strictly defensive benefits, (Devotion Aura, Sacrifice, Resistances etc) or selfish buffs for the Paladin, (Sanctity Aura). Aura's aren't exclusive to Paladins either, Trueshot Aura for Hunters used to give the entire party extra attack power, Moonkin Aura gave Spell Crit etc. so it's not as if Paladins have been the only class in the game to ever have auras.

Which begs the question of what exactly are Auras in the first place? They're not magical in nature, otherwise they'd have a mana cost, be dispelable and such. They're not a shout, those are their own separate thing entirely. All of which leads to the conclusion that it's either something the Paladin is actively doing, or their presence alone is having some kind of inspirational effect on those around them.

Thematically, defensive auras fit in well with the idea of the paladin as a guardian and protector. The aura representing that the Paladin is actively guarding the people in their immediate vicinity.

They're not a great fit at all for the whole bringer of justice shtick. Those would require offensive auras which have traditionally been placed onto more DPS heavy classes. Buffs that increase physical and magical damage are on the Warrior and Mage respectively, where they're a much better thematic fit than they would be for a Paladin. It would also be strange having an offensive aura on a class with strong base defensive utility. That's quite a disconnect between the theme and the mechanics, one that isn't easilly fixed without removing most of a Paladins more iconic abilities.

[Sett]

I really miss PoJ. I just want that increased movement speed permanently given to us.

[Sigxy]

I'd have considered that Blessings were what the Paladin used to Empower their allies. Paladin Auras have usually either been strictly defensive benefits, (Devotion Aura, Sacrifice, Resistances etc) or selfish buffs for the Paladin, (Sanctity Aura). Aura's aren't exclusive to Paladins either, Trueshot Aura for Hunters used to give the entire party extra attack power, Moonkin Aura gave Spell Crit etc. so it's not as if Paladins have been the only class in the game to ever have auras.

Retribution Aura: Rather offensive as the enemy gets hurt by attacking someone under it.
Sanctity Aura: In Classic, yeah. UNLESS you're with a Protection paladin - then it's awesome! In TBC they made it so Sanctity aura increased everybody's damage.
WotLK did away with Sanctity aura and made it so -all- of a Retribution paladin's auras increases their damage and with further talents, increase casting/melee/ranged attack speed.
Crusader Aura: It's absolutely -amazing-. Gives everyone around the paladin 20% mount speed. Useful for combat, no, but it definitely takes you and your friends towards the action faster!

I really miss PoJ. I just want that increased movement speed permanently given to us.

Yeah, I miss that one too. While I wasn't a fan of MoP nor am I a fan of Holy Power - it was nice that we had a passive 10% speed and with Holy Power up, get up to 25% speed.

[Ryuji]

I really miss PoJ. I just want that increased movement speed permanently given to us.

As annoying as Cata was to play until Dragon Soul when Judgement would give 1 HP as well, I enjoyed having PoJ and LAotL at the same time.

[Wrecktangle]

I'm curious - What do you think that aura is signaling to other players thematically?

Is it the inspirational effect of being in close proximity to someone with such strong faith in the light?
Is it the effects of being protected by the Paladin?
Is it supposed to signify that the Paladin is a leader who is taking command of the situation and organising your forces better?
Does it even tell other players they should stop what they're doing because it's hammer time?

Theme is a very subjective matter. Someone who considers the Paladin to be the specialist at killing Undead and Demons is going to have a very different idea of what is thematically appropriate to someone who thinks of the Paladin as being the bane of all evil and raining righteous vengence upon them or to someone who thinks of the Paladin as being the protector of the innocent and champion to those in need.

Getting auras right thematically in a way that suits all of those differing ideas is a tall order.

As you know I'm a bit of a stickler for the Paladin archetype. My signature which I JUST REALIZED doesn't actually show up anymore kind of mentions the idea that "Though our goals are the same, our methods are different. In order to protect the weak, I seek to destroy evil. I am Retribution.". I think it It's a bit crusadey in hindsight though, but I dig it

Thematically they're all similar. In your example about the undead/demon specialist and bane of all evil as well as being the protector and champion all are tenets of what I consider to be a Paladin. I would never say that a Paladin is simply one of those, it's basically all 3 at all times. I'd actually posit most fanbois would agree with me.

Which begs the question of what exactly are Auras in the first place? They're not magical in nature, otherwise they'd have a mana cost, be dispelable and such. They're not a shout, those are their own separate thing entirely. All of which leads to the conclusion that it's either something the Paladin is actively doing, or their presence alone is having some kind of inspirational effect on those around them.

Thematically, defensive auras fit in well with the idea of the paladin as a guardian and protector. The aura representing that the Paladin is actively guarding the people in their immediate vicinity.

You have the remember what a Paladin is first and foremost. They're a hybridization of a Warrior and a Priest thematically. Therefore it stands that they'll have features of both classes and married unique abilities. I like to think that a traditional Paladin aura is one of these. It's like the theme of a warrior letting out a bellowing rally cry that inspires other warriors to join the fray, but at the same time it's mystical in nature. I always envisioned a Paladin as someone who inspires by leading and bolstering their allies. A Paladin may not be a whirlwind of death and carnage like a Warrior, but he's in the fight, with drastically uneven odds, and slowly winning which inspires others to dig deep (the faith) to last as long as possible.

When I did my custom WoW Paladin build back in Legion alpha that was the theme I applied. Speaking strictly from a PVP standpoint the theme was that being near a Paladin made you stronger (effects like clearing debuffs, reflecting ranged attacks, etc.) but at the same time, made it an easy target on the battlefield to be focused (the uneven odds, trying to survive thing).

Sorry for the ramble.

[StrawberryZebra]

Retribution Aura: Rather offensive as the enemy gets hurt by attacking someone under it.

For what it's worth, Retribution Aura was only really used as a selfish DPS increase for Prot Paladins. It only really counted for much of anything when you were AoE tanking a lot of mobs at any one time. It wasn't great by itself as a buff for your party, especially not for people who didn't want to be hit. Most of the time you would be using Devotion Aura for any content that actually mattered.

Thematically they're all similar. In your example about the undead/demon specialist and bane of all evil as well as being the protector and champion all are tenets of what I consider to be a Paladin. I would never say that a Paladin is simply one of those, it's basically all 3 at all times. I'd actually posit most fanbois would agree with me.

You have the remember what a Paladin is first and foremost. They're a hybridization of a Warrior and a Priest thematically. Therefore it stands that they'll have features of both classes and married unique abilities. I like to think that a traditional Paladin aura is one of these. It's like the theme of a warrior letting out a bellowing rally cry that inspires other warriors to join the fray, but at the same time it's mystical in nature. I always envisioned a Paladin as someone who inspires by leading and bolstering their allies. A Paladin may not be a whirlwind of death and carnage like a Warrior, but he's in the fight, with drastically uneven odds, and slowly winning which inspires others to dig deep (the faith) to last as long as possible.

Within the Warcraft Universe Paladins have often been represented as being especially capable against the Undead and Demons. This was mechanically reinforced with their older skillset having spells that only worked against those two enemy types. If that's what the Paladin was originally envisioned as, then I would argue that it's a strong thematic fit that stands apart as it's own niche.

The idea of the Paladin as being a specialist monster hunter is one that's open to interpretation, and has already been explored in other media. Geralt of Rivia from the Witcher for example could fit here, he's got some loose form of magical powers combined with martial skills. The Belmont Family from the Castlevania series are chosen by the Church to defeat Dracula. What about the Doomslayer from the Doom series? A very extreme example perhaps, but he is a Warrior chosen by a divine being and empowered to destroy demons. I'd say that's close enough to fit the Paladin archtype too.

For a Paladin like this, an Aura could be retooled to represent their expert knowledge against their chosen enemies or their specialist magics and so on. It could be presented in a way to fit that theme, and that of their chosen enemies, in a way that makes it clear that it's something the Paladin is doing or bringing to the party to have the effects. It's clear to both the Paladin and players grouping with them what the aura buff is representing thematically.

The reason I bring this up is because if thematically the Aura is representing the Paladin's leadership, then I don't think it's doing that theme justice at all. If it's representing the Paladin protecting those around them I think that rather than being a passive effect, it should instead be something the player is actively doing moment to moment. Give them that role directly through the class mechanics, talents like Aegis of Light for Prot are great ways to do this and make it clear what the Paladin is doing.

If the Aura is some of the Paladins magic then I don't think it's really delivering on that part of the fantasy. If it's the Paladin inspiring their allies through their faith, their fanaticism and so on then that too should really be it's own stand-apart mechanic. Both of these are the Paladin taking action, that runs contrary to Auras as passive buffs.

None of these are thematically bad fits for any Paladin archetype - They're just represented very poorly by Auras as a mechanic in my opinion.

[Sigxy]

For what it's worth, Retribution Aura was only really used as a selfish DPS increase for Prot Paladins. It only really counted for much of anything when you were AoE tanking a lot of mobs at any one time. It wasn't great by itself as a buff for your party, especially not for people who didn't want to be hit. Most of the time you would be using Devotion Aura for any content that actually mattered.

Unless, you know, PvP. Good against fast hitting melee.

[Hollowinside]

The thing is that on a competitive environment (Mythic Raiding + high-end PvP) it was actually underperforming.

But even so, all I would want to see for us in Shadowlands in order to be a happy Paladin player would be Seals and that exact Empowered Seals option re-introduced to us.