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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Because blizzard has given her an iron clad reason, to do what she did - to be revealed in Shadowlands. Something that you can relate to might have been necessary to possibly save or at least bring down the barriers between life and death.


    IF you had the view of the after life Sylvanas had, with the urgency of the shadowlands problem - wouldn't you think entirely differently of the value of life and change your mind on whether to take it or not As a horde leader, would it not make sense if you needed more lives sent to the Maw, to rather take the lives of your enemies and thus drum up the war.


    While this is never a good thing persay, do not the circumstances warrant a re-assessment of the justification of all this? What is life anyway? If passing into the shadowlands you just transition into another role? What does it mean to live this one here like that so briefly when eternity is where your main existence lies?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Surely, then this life is only useful for determining what state you get in the next, and this life is where you get to choose. It's the old Christian argument on the afterlife. Where this life that you never chose to have, is given to you by God, however while you are here, you get to determine whether you spend eternity in heaven (and what degree or level or state you do so, doorkeeper or Elder etc) or in hell, tha talso has levels (the level is determined by your actions and choices in this life). Shadowlands is an alternate version of Christianity's message on after life.

    The difference is that in wow, the afterlife seems more shades of hell rather than having any real heaven. But I reserve judgement until I actually see what the various covenants are.
    Sylvanas motivations aren't bad, they could make for some amazing storylines.

    The problem is on the writing and how poorly it has been executed. From an ethical standpoint, Sylvanas methods and goals just are diametrically opposite to those of the playable factions, we have never truly been allowed to "side" with her, experience things from her perspective because we shouldn't empathize with her motives, she has to be the villain, or at best antagonist, of the story.

    Yet the game also poorly played with the perception that she perhaps cared for the Horde's safety, which makes her come as flip-floppy rather than the manipulative bastard she is on the story. The poor execution makes it look more like indecision on the writers part whether to make it "bad" or "good" in the strict binary WoW seems to love living by.

    BfA's cinematic sold us Sylvanas as our (horde) savior, but then came the pre patch and all she made the Horde was complicit in genocide. That's just an awful bait and switch.

    Ultimately, the writers have messed too much with the perception of Sylvanas, and when we still have debates over "maybe she has a good reason to be doing this" is less about some players refusing to see how far she has gone -some, cause other will stan her forever no matter what- and more about the writers failing to frame her properly, indecisive whether we should be sympathetic to her or loathe her, oscillating into two extremes that WoW's simple morality just does not have the proper nuance to address.

    How can Sylvanas can be a more morally complex character than WoW itself, with its good v/s bad ethics, can allow?

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Sylvanas motivations aren't bad, they could make for some amazing storylines.

    The problem is on the writing and how poorly it has been executed. From an ethical standpoint, Sylvanas methods and goals just are diametrically opposite to those of the playable factions, we have never truly been allowed to "side" with her, experience things from her perspective because we shouldn't empathize with her motives, she has to be the villain, or at best antagonist, of the story.

    Yet the game also poorly played with the perception that she perhaps cared for the Horde's safety, which makes her come as flip-floppy rather than the manipulative bastard she is on the story. The poor execution makes it look more like indecision on the writers part whether to make it "bad" or "good" in the strict binary WoW seems to love living by.

    BfA's cinematic sold us Sylvanas as our (horde) savior, but then came the pre patch and all she made the Horde was complicit in genocide. That's just an awful bait and switch.

    Ultimately, the writers have messed too much with the perception of Sylvanas, and when we still have debates over "maybe she has a good reason to be doing this" is less about some players refusing to see how far she has gone -some, cause other will stan her forever no matter what- and more about the writers failing to frame her properly, indecisive whether we should be sympathetic to her or loathe her, oscillating into two extremes that WoW's simple morality just does not have the proper nuance to address.

    How can Sylvanas can be a more morally complex character than WoW itself, with its good v/s bad ethics, can allow?
    How did BfA cinematic sold us the idea that Sylvanas was the Horde savior? That "For the Horde!" war cry was so forced that it was obvious it was all a ruse.

    Also, I don't think Blizzard ever mentioned that Sylvanas had good intentions or that she had a good reason for committing those atrocities.... they mentioned that the Horde was morally grey, because many Horde characters are good people forced to serve a bad cause, and they mentioned that Sylvanas was not a mindless villain, but had a precise plan, a precise goal, she was methodical. But I don't remember Blizzard ever saying that Sylvanas was driven by good intentions.

    I don't even think she's meant to be sympathetic.... her backstory is sad because of what happened to her during the Third War, but the Burning of Teldrassil or any of the things she did in BfA are definitely not framed as morally grey acts. As if the generic evil music that plays whenever she does something on screen did not make that obvious enough.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-02-26 at 08:53 PM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post

    Look, it only takes a single google search to prove you wrong.
    Weird, that simple google search says nothing about this definition being one that is used to convict perpetrators of genocide or being in line with the vision of the author of genocide which are things I actually claimed in the post you were replying to. So I don't think you know what "prove" and "wrong" mean. And if it's not used to establish whether someone is actually a perpetrator of genocide or not, it's rather meaningless to boot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    And I asked you a question, not an assertion. Just answer it and stop tossing and turning.
    Because it being a question, not an assertion changes oh, so much here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    There is no need for a smokescreen anyway, since you're just plain wrong.
    Unless you can provide even one example of the definition above that you totally didn't cherry-pick (it obviously applies only to other people ) being used to establish whether a specific act has or has not been a genocide, I'm not wrong in the least.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I have no idea. I guess it's to do with being too emotionally attached to Sylvanas to the point that you want to morally whitewash her at any cost, too?
    Yeah, stating that Sylvanas has committed mass murder is obviously painting her as paragon of morality. Do you even hear yourself?


    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    What I don't get is, what's wrong with saying "I like this villain character"? Why the ridiculous lengths to try to convince us she's actually the hero or something?
    Stating that she's a mass murderer. Trying to convince people that she's the hero or something. Pick one. Alternatively drop the straw-man.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    This thread isn't really about what the term genocide is or isn't, or whether or not it's relevant, but rather the degree to which Sylvanas is a villain. Let's return to the actual topic at hand and away from this entirely semantic argument about what a term means.
    Fair enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Weird, that simple google search says nothing about this definition being one that is used to convict perpetrators of genocide or being in line with the vision of the author of genocide which are things I actually claimed in the post you were replying to. So I don't think you know what "prove" and "wrong" mean. And if it's not used to establish whether someone is actually a perpetrator of genocide or not, it's rather meaningless to boot.




    Because it being a question, not an assertion changes oh, so much here.




    Unless you can provide even one example of the definition above that you totally didn't cherry-pick (it obviously applies only to other people ) being used to establish whether a specific act has or has not been a genocide, I'm not wrong in the least.




    Yeah, stating that Sylvanas has committed mass murder is obviously painting her as paragon of morality. Do you even hear yourself.
    Since the mods don't want us to discuss something pertinent to Sylvanas' actions, considering it was actually the word used in the actual story and it follows the common definition, I'll just have to leave it here and tell you that your pedantics act isn't convincing anyone.

    Have a good day.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    How did BfA cinematic sold us the idea that Sylvanas was the Horde savior? That "For the Horde!" war cry was so forced that it was obvious it was all a ruse.
    It's hard to pick which was better, that one showing that orcs, trolls, and cows will blindly follow any sociopath that remembers to yell that slogan, or Sylvie powersliding onto Frostmourne.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    It's hard to pick which was better, that one showing that orcs, trolls, and cows will blindly follow any sociopath that remembers to yell that slogan, or Sylvie powersliding onto Frostmourne.
    Our middle aged undead goth mom did it! She yelled the slogan! She truly is one of us! I'm sure she doesn't plan to free us from "the curse of living", even though she just killed and raised my friend Henry at Undercity as a mindless skeletal servant. I'm sure she had her reasons.

  7. #227
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    I mean, she yelled 'For the Horde' but no one did anything until Saurfang roared into battle
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    I mean, she yelled 'For the Horde' but no one did anything until Saurfang roared into battle
    But he did that in response to her yell. Unless what you're saying is that Saurfang was no one, in which case I can get behind that sentiment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    How did BfA cinematic sold us the idea that Sylvanas was the Horde savior? That "For the Horde!" war cry was so forced that it was obvious it was all a ruse.

    Also, I don't think Blizzard ever mentioned that Sylvanas had good intentions or that she had a good reason for committing those atrocities.... they mentioned that the Horde was morally grey, because many Horde characters are good people forced to serve a bad cause, and they mentioned that Sylvanas was not a mindless villain, but had a precise plan, a precise goal, she was methodical. But I don't remember Blizzard ever saying that Sylvanas was driven by good intentions.

    I don't even think she's meant to be sympathetic.... her backstory is sad because of what happened to her during the Third War, but the Burning of Teldrassil or any of the things she did in BfA are definitely not framed as morally grey acts. As if the generic evil music that plays whenever she does something on screen did not make that obvious enough.
    Nah, miss me with the "well Sylvanas for the Horde cry was soooo transparent". It was obviously meant to be seen as a triumphant moment obviously juxtaposed to Anduin's own for the Alliance. The whole offer of BfA was "choose a side, for the Horde/Alliance" we were meant to feel faction pride. We are not talking about hindsight here, but the clear intention at the time.

    Sylvanas was always described as "having to choose between her goals or her people" Legion literally describes as having to choose, as if she is morally torn about it. All her atrocities previous to Teldrassil were shrouded in deniability, you could always make the case about were the shoe was gonna drop.

    Then came BfA and the answer was "the shoe was always going to fall on the genocide side"

    We were sold on the complexity of Sylvanas choices, when her choices were made long ago. We didn't see her choose the dark side in a morally complex and griping journey. We just got told "Oh yeah, she has been really awful since always"

    The Forsaken's ruthless leader is a formidable champion of her people. But with the Burning Legion's invasion, the stakes for the Dark Lady have never been higher. Should Sylvanas perish, her demise will be the beginning of her eternal damnation. All that stand between her and this doom are her Val'kyr, yet few of these spirit guardians remain. As her fate edges closer to the abyss, Sylvanas must decide how far she'll go to protect her people... and whether they're more precious to her than her soul.[56]
    That was her Legion description.

  10. #230
    --- snip ---

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Sylvanas motivations aren't bad
    -kill as many people as possible
    -especially if they have hope, screw them
    -destroy both factions
    -unleash an old god
    -shatter the barrier between life and death leading to new threats to Azeroth
    -unleash the scourge
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    "send everyone directly to mega-rape-hell".
    That's what we've got so far of her goals/motivations. I notice a distinct lack of petting kittens.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-02-26 at 10:23 PM. Reason: Removed portion due to Mod Warning
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    The authors communicate to us through their work. They literally cannot ram it through your thick skull any harder.



    -kill as many people as possible
    -especially if they have hope, screw them
    -destroy both factions
    -unleash an old god
    -shatter the barrier between life and death leading to new threats to Azeroth
    -unleash the scourge

    That's what we've got so far of her goals/motivations. I notice a distinct lack of petting kittens.
    You forgot "send everyone directly to mega-rape-hell".

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That was her Legion description.
    And the answer to that question posed at the end was

    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    "send everyone directly to mega-rape-hell".
    Fixed. Thanks, fam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Nah, miss me with the "well Sylvanas for the Horde cry was soooo transparent". It was obviously meant to be seen as a triumphant moment obviously juxtaposed to Anduin's own for the Alliance. The whole offer of BfA was "choose a side, for the Horde/Alliance" we were meant to feel faction pride. We are not talking about hindsight here, but the clear intention at the time.

    Sylvanas was always described as "having to choose between her goals or her people" Legion literally describes as having to choose, as if she is morally torn about it. All her atrocities previous to Teldrassil were shrouded in deniability, you could always make the case about were the shoe was gonna drop.

    Then came BfA and the answer was "the shoe was always going to fall on the genocide side"

    We were sold on the complexity of Sylvanas choices, when her choices were made long ago. We didn't see her choose the dark side in a morally complex and griping journey. We just got told "Oh yeah, she has been really awful since always"



    That was her Legion description.
    I did not see any intention from the writers to make that "For the Horde!" feel genuine. Your interpretation is as good as mine. You claim the writers framed Sylvanas in a positive way in that cinematic, when I don't see it at all.

    That dilemma between her soul and her people is not really a big part of her character, so much so that it is not developed one bit in the actual game and is only mentioned in one line on the Legion website. To say that it was always Sylvanas' description, as if it were one of the main traits of her characters, is false.

    It was obvious since Edge of Night that she did not care about her people. She saw them as a valuable meatshield against the Hell she belongs in, nothing more.

    She has indeed been awful since always. She has been a villain since Classic. In WC3 she was at best an anti-hero.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    -unleash the scourge
    That one is more of a side effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  15. #235
    Epic! Whitedragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Just curious, but when did this happen?
    Chronicles If I remember right. Post reawakening his end goal is some twisted ideal of saving the world through undeath, which seemed kind of odd considering he was building his forts out of old god blood...

  16. #236
    I love slyvanas prior to bfa, i think she was definitely evil/malicious but less of a villain with her loyalty to the horde, actions against garrosh. She has a unique mindset a video game can have where things like death don't matter if you can convert them to your side as a result. I think even though its hugely flawed, if she actually wanted to eliminate the alliance for a true horde azeroth, its a conquerors mindset, but still fairly justifiable. But the context that shes been getting people killed for some master we know nothing about, that everything she has done has the asterisk on it. Everything from bfa makes slyvanas either seem like a puppet or a selfish bitch, and it makes slyvanas extremely unlikable. Its also not helpful that blizzard gives her thought processes in the book, then has extreme actions in the game, to then throw out the motivations in the finally having her join the jailor a character they won't give context for till a year after the drop.

    You can see the thought process of if the horde and alliance will always fight and you want to end it here and now, crushing the night elves, killing malfurion, and truly ending the war before it began could be a strategy. And slyvanas is always a character that can be very extreme and irrational in moments of weakness/panic/things not going to plan, so you could see slyvanas thinking burning the tree and razing a city as the next best thing in her mind. Im not saying this is what a good person would do, but a malicious character that believes the ends justifies the means and is truly wanting the horde to endure. There are plenty of historical characters who are heroes to their country but pretty villainous to those on the receiving end, its not some unthinkable horror. But when they reveal that slyvanas doesnt care for the horde, doesn't care for the war, actually wanted as many people to die as possible (then why would you try to end the war in one sweep with malfurion, it just doesn't make sense), you are just contradicting the character.

    Im not saying slyvanas is a good person or stable, and she definitely is a villain in the perspective of the alliance. At least from a horde point of view prior to bfa, you can justify her as a ends justifies the mean brutal conquerer, who has a warped perception of live and death unique to her, that wanted the horde and the forsaken to succeed, But with the context of bfa, it seems slyvanas is a massive bait to everyone, where blizzard is trying to portray her as evil as possible, with some revelation at the end that makes her understandable or acceptable as a character progression (not that her actions are acceptable). But I really think that the amount of time it takes for the audience to see this pay off is way too long, 4/5 years of this weird character acceleration for a plot twist that seems smarter than it actually is something i hope they never do again, at most it should be a 1 expansion thing, or a 2 parter with there is a further progression of a character after a settled character arc. But in addition the contradictions of character DURING bfa, the acceleration of comcial evil slyvanas goes through, and the variety of sources of slyvanas info to get this characters recent arc is just bad writing and presentation, not just an unlikable character.

    Hopefully they never do something like this again to a character. This was a character who fans had connection to and with the lore path they took, its basically impossible to justify that with the bfa actions because they the story is so confusing, plot-twisty, and has over use of misinformation/lack of full picture, that it makes everything seem stupid for 2 expansions. It feels bad, and if slyvanas is just a villain to be killed, at least with that you can be like well that if what they made her so at least that part makes sense. But if shes a character that will continue to have influence, as a harbinger into the cosmic part of wow, they better give a lot of explanation, slyvanas' honest opinions/thoughts/feelings on what shes done and who she's done it to, and have a convincing ends justify the means explanation to make any hope for her, or else the story will greatly suffer from an unlikable,poorly written, anger inducing character existing.
    Last edited by goldentforce; 2020-02-27 at 06:24 AM.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by goldentforce View Post
    I love slyvanas prior to bfa, i think she was definitely evil/malicious but less of a villain with her loyalty to the horde, actions against garrosh. She has a unique mindset a video game can have where things like death don't matter if you can convert them to your side as a result. I think even though its hugely flawed, if she actually wanted to eliminate the alliance for a true horde azeroth, its a conquerors mindset, but still fairly justifiable. But the context that shes been getting people killed for some master we know nothing about, that everything she has done has the asterisk on it. Everything from bfa makes slyvanas either seem like a puppet or a selfish bitch, and it makes slyvanas extremely unlikable. Its also not helpful that blizzard gives her thought processes in the book, then has extreme actions in the game, to then throw out the motivations in the finally having her join the jailor a character they won't give context for till a year after the drop.

    You can see the thought process of if the horde and alliance will always fight and you want to end it here and now, crushing the night elves, killing malfurion, and truly ending the war before it began could be a strategy. And slyvanas is always a character that can be very extreme and irrational in moments of weakness/panic/things not going to plan, so you could see slyvanas thinking burning the tree and razing a city as the next best thing in her mind. Im not saying this is what a good person would do, but a malicious character that believes the ends justifies the means and is truly wanting the horde to endure. There are plenty of historical characters who are heroes to their country but pretty villainous to those on the receiving end, its not some unthinkable horror. But when they reveal that slyvanas doesnt care for the horde, doesn't care for the war, actually wanted as many people to die as possible (then why would you try to end the war in one sweep with malfurion, it just doesn't make sense), you are just contradicting the character.

    Im not saying slyvanas is a good person or stable, and she definitely is a villain in the perspective of the alliance. At least from a horde point of view prior to bfa, you can justify her as a ends justifies the mean brutal conquerer, who has a warped perception of live and death unique to her, that wanted the horde and the forsaken to succeed, But with the context of bfa, it seems slyvanas is a massive bait to everyone, where blizzard is trying to portray her as evil as possible, with some revelation at the end that makes her understandable or acceptable as a character progression (not that her actions are acceptable). But I really think that the amount of time it takes for the audience to see this pay off is way too long, 4/5 years of this weird character acceleration for a plot twist that seems smarter than it actually is something i hope they never do again, at most it should be a 1 expansion thing, or a 2 parter with there is a further progression of a character after a settled character arc. But in addition the contradictions of character DURING bfa, the acceleration of comcial evil slyvanas goes through, and the variety of sources of slyvanas info to get this characters recent arc is just bad writing and presentation, not just an unlikable character.

    Hopefully they never do something like this again to a character. This was a character who fans had connection to and with the lore path they took, its basically impossible to justify that with the bfa actions because they the story is so confusing, plot-twisty, and has over use of misinformation/lack of full picture, that it makes everything seem stupid for 2 expansions. It feels bad, and if slyvanas is just a villain to be killed, at least with that you can be like well that if what they made her so at least that part makes sense. But if shes a character that will continue to have influence, as a harbinger into the cosmic part of wow, they better give a lot of explanation, slyvanas' honest opinions/thoughts/feelings on what shes done and who she's done it to, and have a convincing ends justify the means explanation to make any hope for her, or else the story will greatly suffer from an unlikable,poorly written, anger inducing character existing.
    Because she knew Saurfang would not go all the way in. She knew he will stop when he realizes (with his tiny brain) that this war will never be as “honorable” as she convinced him. She even openly mocked him with “it will be a great honor” and “glory” to kill Malf who was biggest WoW hippie before BfA and openly worked with the Horde and in general was a very “neutral” character. Killing someone like him, after a backstab and while he is basically lying on the ground with an axe in his back might be practical... but thats nowhere near glorious or honorable. She on purpose made him doubt himself so he would hesitate and give her an excuse to burn the Tree and feed the Jailer. She would have done it anyway but she wanted to puppeteer the Horde some more...

    - - - Updated - - -

    --- snip ---
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-02-27 at 12:45 PM. Reason: Removed Forbidden Topic

  18. #238
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    I don't think there's a more perfect meme to summarise the sylvanas fanbase right now.

    --- snip ---
    Last edited by Trassk; 2020-02-27 at 04:18 PM.
    #boycottchina

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Because she knew Saurfang would not go all the way in. She knew he will stop when he realizes (with his tiny brain) that this war will never be as “honorable” as she convinced him. She even openly mocked him with “it will be a great honor” and “glory” to kill Malf who was biggest WoW hippie before BfA and openly worked with the Horde and in general was a very “neutral” character. Killing someone like him, after a backstab and while he is basically lying on the ground with an axe in his back might be practical... but thats nowhere near glorious or honorable. She on purpose made him doubt himself so he would hesitate and give her an excuse to burn the Tree and feed the Jailer. She would have done it anyway but she wanted to puppeteer the Horde some more...
    None of that is even remotely true. Sylvanas was surprised to learn that Malfurion still lives and went into rumination mode in regards to how to salvage the situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Your headcanon and the use of that word, which I'm tired of repeating is, just staggering. Laughable.

    So once again, it's not. Therefore you can't use it to guilt anyone into doing what you want. Players or writers. Get over yourselves and stop this cringe.
    You don't have to repeat that, since mod were clear to drop the genocide discussion. You are the only one still talking about it.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

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