Should raid loggers get low prio on gear?

[Finear]

On the contrary, I'm fully respected in any guild that I join (not that I guild-hop, when I join a guild I stay in it until it disbands, so my average is ~2-3yrs/guild). If you don't play an MMORPG to socialise, then I'm sorry, but there are much better RPG's with their own leaderboards so you can get your legendary parses on. Like I mentioned before - I don't mind the PEOPLE who raid-log, they're free to play however they want, but the ACTION of raid logging, I despise. Also, officers are by definition NOT raid loggers - they have recruiting to take care of, loot distribution to discuss, rosters to fix, you name it. I at least help them with their alts, or take some of the officer-burden off their shoulders by being a reliable, active member (like becoming Guild Enchanter).

What does the raid-logger do to help out the officer team? That's right, nothing. He just signs up to raids, and shows up, the de-facto attitude of EVERY raid member. The bare minimum. Again, another activity the raid-logger takes no part in (raid management) yet gets full benefits (a smooth and functioning raid with 0 drama). It appears to me you have never been in an officer's position in a serious raiding guild, hence why you belittle all other non-raiding activities. I, on the contrary, HAVE been an officer, and I know about ALL the extra work these people put in. Which is why I always tip my hat off to the officer team, and always cut them some slack, because all the people criticising the officer team for X or Y reason wouldn't last a day in their shoes.

- - - Updated - - -



I'm giving you examples as to why being an active player > being a raid logger, and you're not even answering to the stuff I'm telling you. You want equal gear priority when you have put in 50% effort compared to people who have put in 100% effort (active players) and people who have put in 150% effort (the officer team responsible for raid smoothness/no drama/roster stability etc etc).

i dunno, as i raidlogger i usually also lead raids, or I'm at least a shot caller

as an officer, i don't need to do recruiting unless I signed up for recruitment. which i never do.
it's not my strong side and im not needed to do that

I put as much or more effort in raids as everyone else. your assumption that i put 50% effort is wrong

I do my own work, alone outside of raid hours. especially when a new raid is about to be released

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Raidloggers was always loathed upon in serious raiding guilds, just replace them with people who want to play the game.

If they have lost interrest in all other aspects, their overall interrest in the game is too low.

classic and serious raiding don't go together

[ellieg]

On the contrary, I'm fully respected in any guild that I join (not that I guild-hop, when I join a guild I stay in it until it disbands, so my average is ~2-3yrs/guild). If you don't play an MMORPG to socialise, then I'm sorry, but there are much better RPG's with their own leaderboards so you can get your legendary parses on. Like I mentioned before - I don't mind the PEOPLE who raid-log, they're free to play however they want, but the ACTION of raid logging, I despise. Also, officers are by definition NOT raid loggers - they have recruiting to take care of, loot distribution to discuss, rosters to fix, you name it. I at least help them with their alts, or take some of the officer-burden off their shoulders by being a reliable, active member (like becoming Guild Enchanter).

What does the raid-logger do to help out the officer team? That's right, nothing. He just signs up to raids, and shows up, the de-facto attitude of EVERY raid member. The bare minimum. Again, another activity the raid-logger takes no part in (raid management) yet gets full benefits (a smooth and functioning raid with 0 drama). It appears to me you have never been in an officer's position in a serious raiding guild, hence why you belittle all other non-raiding activities. I, on the contrary, HAVE been an officer, and I know about ALL the extra work these people put in. Which is why I always tip my hat off to the officer team, and always cut them some slack, because all the people criticising the officer team for X or Y reason wouldn't last a day in their shoes.

- - - Updated - - -



I'm giving you examples as to why being an active player > being a raid logger, and you're not even answering to the stuff I'm telling you. You want equal gear priority when you have put in 50% effort compared to people who have put in 100% effort (active players) and people who have put in 150% effort (the officer team responsible for raid smoothness/no drama/roster stability etc etc). It's even obvious from the way you phrase things. You say " I'm not going to spend them doing atunement quests I've already done.", I say "I'm helping new guildies get raid-ready, because my raid needs this new rogue, and it will benefit me and my raidgroup if we get him attuned". You think of yourself, I think of the guild as a whole. That's probably a decent enough explanation as to why we see things differently

I got attuned by myself really easily. I farmed pre bis by myself really easily. These things arent hard. I farm my own consumables. I get my world buffs. I am showing up to raid 100% prepared and performing as well if not better than the other members. I get the same loot priority because of this.

You can choose to help guildies get rdy for raid. They dont need your help, but you are offering it. This doesnt get you more loot priority, just means you have more free time.

I dont know what questions of yours I'm not answering. I have a few questions for you tho. Have you downed nef? Are you still balance? If so, do you have the same loot prio for nelths tear or is that reserved for the warlocks/mages?

[Mightytasty]

Classic is piss easy and you don’t need consumables

[Beet]

Yeah they should for items that are used in PvP like TOEP, BRE, Lifegiving etc. We don’t give them priority on these items because they don’t use them as much. Not many complained either because they get it. In fact only one ever did, a crappy warrior.

I mean I’m sorry but we’ve seen one BRE ever and it wasn’t going to goto an arms warrior who shows up to raid without world buffs once a week and never PvPs.

We even gave a TOEP to our main shaman over a mage because the shaman plays every night and the mage logs on to raid and then goes back to retail. The mage was a little upset but said he would be fine with the Hakkar trinket when it’s out.

- - - Updated - - -

Classic is piss easy and you don’t need consumables

No shit. You need to challenge yourself if you want to have fun though. Which means getting world buffs and consumables for speed clearing and parsing. Warriors and rogues for example carry the raid because of how they scale with the buffs. A warrior can show up using blue gear but still be top dps because world buffs break them. The difference is hilarious between full wbs/consumes and none. Being able to use heroic strike every GCD Thanks to swimming in rage to being rage starved. It’s a gigantic difference. As is the speed. Clearing Molten Core in 30 minutes on average beats being in there for two hours.

[Shammyrock]

denying gear to people who dont seem that interested in other parts of the game doesnt seem like a wise long term strategy

[Dalinos]

I got attuned by myself really easily. I farmed pre bis by myself really easily. These things arent hard. I farm my own consumables. I get my world buffs. I am showing up to raid 100% prepared and performing as well if not better than the other members. I get the same loot priority because of this.

You can choose to help guildies get rdy for raid. They dont need your help, but you are offering it. This doesnt get you more loot priority, just means you have more free time.

I dont know what questions of yours I'm not answering. I have a few questions for you tho. Have you downed nef? Are you still balance? If so, do you have the same loot prio for nelths tear or is that reserved for the warlocks/mages?

To answer your questions: 1) yes, we downed Nef on 1st reset, by now we've killed him twice, 3rd time is this coming Sunday. 2) Yes, I am still Balance, I got recruited as Balance, because this guild is super caster-heavy (weird right?) and I slotted right in to the group of 4 warlocks like a charm. 3) I won't even accept Neltharion's Tear if they give it to me, because I know I am a SUPPORT CASTER, not a pure DPS, and I know the mages/locks need it more than I do. The 5th Tear, I might say I need it but until the Warlock/Mage officers and our 2nd best Mage/Warlock get it, I'll be hitting "Pass" all day long. That being said, i've got logs where I was 11th or 13th (can't remember exactly) on Broodlord Lashlayer, if you would like me to link I'd be more than happy to.

- - - Updated - - -

i dunno, as i raidlogger i usually also lead raids, or I'm at least a shot caller

as an officer, i don't need to do recruiting unless I signed up for recruitment. which i never do.
it's not my strong side and im not needed to do that

I put as much or more effort in raids as everyone else. your assumption that i put 50% effort is wrong

I do my own work, alone outside of raid hours. especially when a new raid is about to be released

Then by definition, you are NOT a raid-logger mate. If you're raid-leader/shotcaller, it means you do your research in YOUR OWN TIME, to be able to perform this role. You also mentioned you "do your own work, alone, outside of raid hours". That is very commendable - it also means you are not a raid-logger. A raid-logger is defined as someone who gives attention to the GAME AS A WHOLE only during raid-hours, and disappears from THE GAME AS A WHOLE when it's not raid time. By your own statements, you do more than just logging on for raids, therefore by definition you are not a raid logger. Like, if you raid on your warlock, but play 5h/day and level a multitude of alts, you're not considered a raid-logger, even if your raiding char (the warlock) is only online to attend the raids.

[ellieg]

To answer your questions: 1) yes, we downed Nef on 1st reset, by now we've killed him twice, 3rd time is this coming Sunday. 2) Yes, I am still Balance, I got recruited as Balance, because this guild is super caster-heavy (weird right?) and I slotted right in to the group of 4 warlocks like a charm. 3) I won't even accept Neltharion's Tear if they give it to me, because I know I am a SUPPORT CASTER, not a pure DPS, and I know the mages/locks need it more than I do. That being said, i've got logs where I was 11th or 13th (can't remember exactly) on Broodlord Lashlayer, if you would like me to link I'd be more than happy to.

11th or 13th mean nothing but good work. You are mc on razorgore because your dps isnt worth it. Bringing 1 mage would bring more dmg to the raid then the 3% crit you give to each warlock. You are talking abt being a support and helping the group but your spec choice is actively bringing the raid down. You can play what you want but you have absolutely no position to tell anyone how they are supposed to play. You do all of this work just to be subpar and pass on gear anyway, so why do you care abt loot priority?

[BeepBoo]

Then you have no need for loot of any kind.

Except for the raids I'm logging iin for.

[Mightytasty]

Yeah they should for items that are used in PvP like TOEP, BRE, Lifegiving etc. We don’t give them priority on these items because they don’t use them as much. Not many complained either because they get it. In fact only one ever did, a crappy warrior.

I mean I’m sorry but we’ve seen one BRE ever and it wasn’t going to goto an arms warrior who shows up to raid without world buffs once a week and never PvPs.

We even gave a TOEP to our main shaman over a mage because the shaman plays every night and the mage logs on to raid and then goes back to retail. The mage was a little upset but said he would be fine with the Hakkar trinket when it’s out.

- - - Updated - - -



No shit. You need to challenge yourself if you want to have fun though. Which means getting world buffs and consumables for speed clearing and parsing. Warriors and rogues for example carry the raid because of how they scale with the buffs. A warrior can show up using blue gear but still be top dps because world buffs break them. The difference is hilarious between full wbs/consumes and none. Being able to use heroic strike every GCD Thanks to swimming in rage to being rage starved. It’s a gigantic difference. As is the speed. Clearing Molten Core in 30 minutes on average beats being in there for two hours.

I’m sorry bro but collecting world buffs and consumables is not fun. I’d rather clear the raid at its regular pace. If you feel the need to speed run then maybe you should be pushing mythic plus on retail.

[Finear]

Then by definition, you are NOT a raid-logger mate. If you're raid-leader/shotcaller, it means you do your research in YOUR OWN TIME, to be able to perform this role. You also mentioned you "do your own work, alone, outside of raid hours". That is very commendable - it also means you are not a raid-logger. A raid-logger is defined as someone who gives attention to the GAME AS A WHOLE only during raid-hours, and disappears from THE GAME AS A WHOLE when it's not raid time. By your own statements, you do more than just logging on for raids, therefore by definition you are not a raid logger. Like, if you raid on your warlock, but play 5h/day and level a multitude of alts, you're not considered a raid-logger, even if your raiding char (the warlock) is only online to attend the raids.

and how can you tell that? i dont play alts, im offline while i do research about new raids

if a raid logger is giving 100% during the raid i have 0 problems with him, and why would i? i focus on raids, i care only about raids and they do the same

they dont need to do anything else then perform on a boss

[Rapti]

No, why should they get lower? They're there when most needed - during raid.
Sure it's nice to do more stuff and bounding, but as long as they do their part, why should they be penalized?

[Dalinos]

11th or 13th mean nothing but good work. You are mc on razorgore because your dps isnt worth it. Bringing 1 mage would bring more dmg to the raid then the 3% crit you give to each warlock. You are talking abt being a support and helping the group but your spec choice is actively bringing the raid down. You can play what you want but you have absolutely no position to tell anyone how they are supposed to play. You do all of this work just to be subpar and pass on gear anyway, so why do you care abt lopt priority?

11th or 13th means nothing? On the simulated "Worse DPS spec in the game" I passed Warriors, Rogues, Hunters, Mages and Warlocks. You do know a 40man raid has around 28-30 DPSers, correct? Also, Moonkins aren't SUPPOSED to do as much DPS as the pure DPSers. Because we have combat res and Innervate. If Moonkin or Feral did as much DPS as a pure DPS, you would bring 10 moonkins and 10 ferals and benefit from 20 innervates and 20 combat resses. This is known as the hybrid tax. Welcome to Vanilla =).

I sometimes parse orange, constantly parse purple on my moonkin. Since I am compared to other moonkins, this means I'm damn good. Obviously, since I've been playing for 15 years (like most of my guildies) and know the game inside-out. We are basicly PH.D Graduates back in High School, in terms of mechanical difficulty. Are we wiping to enrage timers? No, we are not. Am I blowing up the raid with Geddon's or Vael's bombs? No, I am not. I got chosen to be orb controller PRECISELY because my DPS is low on trash, but I STILL give my crit aura while MC'ing the boss - I see that as the officer team being smart in their choices, not a hinderance of my character. You say bring an extra mage, well like I said, we are caster-heavy and run with 7 warlocks and 8 mages. Which is why they recruited a Moonkin. They literally couldn't have more locks/mages. Otherwise noone would get any gear.

That's what ppl don't understand - you don't play Moonkin to be top DPS, you play Moonkin to be the best (and only) support caster in the game. And I love it. I was sleeping Dragons after Vael with a fellow resto druid and his Hibernate got resisted. He proceeded to get oneshotted by a Pyroblast crit. As soon as I saw him get 1shotted, I shifted out of Moonkin, Combat Ressed him, and while Discord was frantically trying to remedy the situation, I calmly said "He's already up again, I got him, both dragons are sleeped, everything's under control, relax, keep killing".

I'm playing what I want, and everyone respects me for it because a) I'm proving the meme wrong, as I'm never below the MT in terms of dmg done b) I bring a BUNCH of utility to the table that does NOT go unnoticed (Innervate and CR are damn strong) and I'm a fucking lazer-chicken, demigod creature blessed by Elune herself while doing so. Win/win/win situation all over.

[vsb]

No. Raid gear meant to progress in raids. Period.

Also if someone consistently attending every raid, he's better than 90% of the roster.

[Dalinos]

and how can you tell that? i dont play alts, im offline while i do research about new raids

if a raid logger is giving 100% during the raid i have 0 problems with him, and why would i? i focus on raids, i care only about raids and they do the same

they dont need to do anything else then perform on a boss

And that's where you're wrong man. You wanna know what's needed for a raid to do well? Here's a small list off the top of my head.

1) No retards - this is achieved by the officers responsible of recruiting
2) Little to no drama - this is achieved by the members being GOOD members, and the officers keeping the raiding environment healthy
3) Little to no LOOT DRAMA - this is achieved by a fair and transparent loot system, that everyone has access to, and the rules are known in advance
4) Solid preparation of tactics - this is achieved by the raid leader, usually an officer, doing his research. For my guild in Classic, our team of officers jumped onto retail and visited BWL on their 110s and 120s, in order to remember the layout of the dungeon, various boss abilities, how the trash moves etc etc.
5) Check-up that everyone is properly enchanted - this is achieved by the Guild Enchanter (in this case, me) who is responsible for keeping everyone's enchants up to date, and kindly/jokingly bitch at them to get their enchants in order.

There's obviously more, this was just off the top of my head, but you are wrong in saying "Performance in raids is the only thing that matters". It DOES matter, but you know what else matters? A STABLE raiding environment. And this is achieved OUTSIDE of raids, not during the raids - during the raids, you see the FRUITS OF THIS EFFORT, to create this stable raiding environment. I couldn't care less if you bring over the Rogue with Viskag/Thunderfury/8/8T2, if he's an asshole and messes up the raiding environment and the guild atmosphere, I couldn't give a shit about his 100% orange parse on Vael. If I wanted hardcore raiding, where raid performance DOES matter, and raiding environment is stable by definition (lol 20man vs 40man), I would be on Retail, like I was from Vanilla ----> Legion, Tanking for a hardcore raiding guild going for Cutting Edge.

But guess what, I don't want hardcore raiding, which is why I'm on classic, where raids are simple & fun, yet with twice the amount of people, which means performance matters MUCH less, but personalities/raiding environment is the key to success.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Read my above post (#42) in order to get more information as to what there is to do in the game besides raiding.

None of this requires raid gear.
None of this should still be happening this late after the game came out.
Just because someone doesn't get their attunement literally after the content is over, doesn't mean that's "something to do in the game", it only means people didn't do their thing at the right time, most people don't need to do attunement runs at this point in progression and don't need to farm mats for other people, that's literally just weird.

[Coldfrostzero]

I buy my own consumables/enchants. As a Warrior tank, I can safely say it can take me over 4 hours to have enough gold to make it through a 2 hour clear of BWL. So asking me to help out when I am going to spend ~20g a raid to repair, ~70g on consumables, and hundreds on enchants when nobody does the same.

[ellieg]

11th or 13th means nothing? On the simulated "Worse DPS spec in the game" I passed Warriors, Rogues, Hunters, Mages and Warlocks. You do know a 40man raid has around 28-30 DPSers, correct? Also, Moonkins aren't SUPPOSED to do as much DPS as the pure DPSers. Because we have combat res and Innervate. If Moonkin or Feral did as much DPS as a pure DPS, you would bring 10 moonkins and 10 ferals and benefit from 20 innervates and 20 combat resses. This is known as the hybrid tax. Welcome to Vanilla =).

I sometimes parse orange, constantly parse purple on my moonkin. Since I am compared to other moonkins, this means I'm damn good. Obviously, since I've been playing for 15 years (like most of my guildies) and know the game inside-out. We are basicly PH.D Graduates back in High School, in terms of mechanical difficulty. Are we wiping to enrage timers? No, we are not. Am I blowing up the raid with Geddon's or Vael's bombs? No, I am not. I got chosen to be orb controller PRECISELY because my DPS is low on trash, but I STILL give my crit aura while MC'ing the boss - I see that as the officer team being smart in their choices, not a hinderance of my character. You say bring an extra mage, well like I said, we are caster-heavy and run with 7 warlocks and 8 mages. Which is why they recruited a Moonkin. They literally couldn't have more locks/mages. Otherwise noone would get any gear.

That's what ppl don't understand - you don't play Moonkin to be top DPS, you play Moonkin to be the best (and only) support caster in the game. And I love it. I was sleeping Dragons after Vael with a fellow resto druid and his Hibernate got resisted. He proceeded to get oneshotted by a Pyroblast crit. As soon as I saw him get 1shotted, I shifted out of Moonkin, Combat Ressed him, and while Discord was frantically trying to remedy the situation, I calmly said "He's already up again, I got him, both dragons are sleeped, everything's under control, relax, keep killing".

I'm playing what I want, and everyone respects me for it because a) I'm proving the meme wrong, as I'm never below the MT in terms of dmg done b) I bring a BUNCH of utility to the table that does NOT go unnoticed (Innervate and CR are damn strong) and I'm a fucking lazer-chicken, demigod creature blessed by Elune herself while doing so. Win/win/win situation all over.

So you are playing how you want and downing bosses. Our guild is playing how we want (raidlogging) and downing bosses. I'm cool with how you play, why arent you cool with how we play?

Also you have a ton of mages and warlocks and dont want to recruit more cause you cldnt gear them so they recruited a moonkin who needs the same gear but does less damage? Sounds like a bad guild. Rogues, warriors, and even hunters exist. All who do more dmg and dont use caster gear. Shldnt need more than the 2 brezzes and innervate that the resto druids bring, unless of course your guild isnt as skilled as you make them out to be?

And yes, 11th or 13th on 1 boss means nothing. Just means the others are slacking. Good moonkin parses mean even less lol. How many buttons is your rotation lmao? Shldnt be parsing that high with all of the utility you are supposedly providing

[Dalinos]

I buy my own consumables/enchants. As a Warrior tank, I can safely say it can take me over 4 hours to have enough gold to make it through a 2 hour clear of BWL. So asking me to help out when I am going to spend ~20g a raid to repair, ~70g on consumables, and hundreds on enchants when nobody does the same.

Isn't your Guild Enchanter responsible for keeping the raiders enchanted at no additional cost? You know, the guy who got +55 healing on weap and +30 spellpower on weap recipes when they dropped in MC. If you're paying Enchanting Fees to randoms, outside the guild, to get your Crusader enchant, your +100 HP on chest enchant and your +5 to all resistances cloak enchant (among others) then your Guild Enchanter is not doing a really good job.

Also, have you tried asking your guild to help you with these enchants? Our warriors/rogues are constantly asking the guild to help them get Orbs from Strat Live to get their Crusader enchants - I dont think ANY of our rogues/warriors has ever bought a Righteous Orb from the AH because we just go help them farm them. First 2 orbs go to the warr/rogue, any other Orbs are rolled for by the assisting 4 members.

A guild is a living organism - if the members don't communicate about their needs to the other members, then the organism will not grow properly.

[kranur]

Read my above post (#42) in order to get more information as to what there is to do in the game besides raiding.

Your few activities are basically just grind rep. Nearly no one is really interested into grinding 10000 mobs to have a recipe when they can just pay 5g to someone else to get what they need.