Should raid loggers get low prio on gear?

[Dalinos]

So you are playing how you want and downing bosses. Our guild is playing how we want (raidlogging) and downing bosses. I'm cool with how you play, why arent you cool with how we play?

Also you have a ton of mages and warlocks and dont want to recruit more cause you cldnt gear them so they recruited a moonkin who needs the same gear but does less damage? Sounds like a bad guild. Rogues, warriors, and even hunters exist. All who do more dmg and dont use caster gear. Shldnt need more than the 2 brezzes and innervate that the resto druids bring, unless of course your guild isnt as skilled as you make them out to be?

We have 1 (one) resto Druid and me. Those are the 2 druids in the raid. Many have Druid alts, but in terms of Druid mains, it's just us two. Also, we go for SOME of the same gear, but not all. Rings/necks/trinkets yes, but armour pieces, they get T1/T2, and some off-set pieces, whereas I get no T1 or T2 but prio on offset pieces (because there's literally nothing else for me to wear, in the whole game, trolololol ).

Like I've said 2 times before already, I don't have anything against the PEOPLE who raid-log. I despise the ACTION of raid-logging. And I've explained why - because the raid-logger benefits from all these outside-of-raid activities that the officer team and the active members give to the guild, while doing nothing to help out. You and your guild can play however you want, I'm not here to bash you or criticise you. I'm here to criticise the ACTION of raid-logging, and explain how it is less helpful and of less value to a guild, by comparing it with the activities of officers and/or active members.

[BeepBoo]

11th or 13th means nothing? On the simulated "Worse DPS spec in the game" I passed Warriors, Rogues, Hunters, Mages and Warlocks. You do know a 40man raid has around 28-30 DPSers, correct?

Those people either don't have enough gear to mop the floor with you yet or they are incredibly bad, as even an orange parsed oomkin would lose to a 50th percentile rogue.

Also, Moonkins aren't SUPPOSED to do as much DPS as the pure DPSers. Because we have combat res and Innervate. If Moonkin or Feral did as much DPS as a pure DPS, you would bring 10 moonkins and 10 ferals and benefit from 20 innervates and 20 combat resses. This is known as the hybrid tax. Welcome to Vanilla =).

Yes.. indeed.. the one big thing I was hoping they'd change. Welcome to vanilla! Where the hybrid tax ensures you have no place in an optimal raid setup, because the utility you get to give up that DPS is either also brought by someone else or not needed at all, and that means they should just bring another "pure" instead!

I'm playing what I want, and everyone respects me for it because a) I'm proving the meme wrong, as I'm never below the MT in terms of dmg done b) I bring a BUNCH of utility to the table that does NOT go unnoticed (Innervate and CR are damn strong) and I'm a fucking lazer-chicken, demigod creature blessed by Elune herself while doing so. Win/win/win situation all over.

Grats on being one of the lucky ones who is given the privilege of being the token <insert meme here>. Now what about all those other people who weren't lucky enough to be on the front end of the curve who play moonchicken? Gonna sell them a false dream of "Follow your heart!" while knowing the reality is probably that every competent raid crew has their fill of meme specs now and is just looking for more actual dps or running with less people altogether?

[ellieg]

We have 1 (one) resto Druid and me. Those are the 2 druids in the raid. Many have Druid alts, but in terms of Druid mains, it's just us two. Also, we go for SOME of the same gear, but not all. Rings/necks/trinkets yes, but armour pieces, they get T1/T2, and some off-set pieces, whereas I get no T1 or T2 but prio on offset pieces (because there's literally nothing else for me to wear, in the whole game, trolololol ).

Like I've said 2 times before already, I don't have anything against the PEOPLE who raid-log. I despise the ACTION of raid-logging. And I've explained why - because the raid-logger benefits from all these outside-of-raid activities that the officer team and the active members give to the guild, while doing nothing to help out. You and your guild can play however you want, I'm not here to bash you or criticise you. I'm here to criticise the ACTION of raid-logging, and explain how it is less helpful and of less value to a guild, by comparing it with the activities of officers and/or active members.

Your mages amd locks and going for tier gear? Explains your 11th or 13th lol.

There is nothing wrong with raid logging as long as they are self sufficient. That's great you guys have an internet commune, but it's not correct to say that's how its SUPPOSED to be, and then to use that to argue they should have less loot priority because of it. If I show up and smash the meters, dont fail at mechanics, and am chill, that's all that's required. Getting someone attuned who leveled super slowly doesnt mean shit when getting attuned is already super easy. That guy that farmed rep for those recipes? Hes making money selling that to non guildies. Those poor warriors that need guild help for crusdaer? They can easily reserve an orb and do a strat live run in the same amount of time.

[Tekkommo]

What do you or others do outside of raids to help the guild?

I guess doing 5 mans to help guildies to gear up is one, they've probably already done this when the game was more fresh. Pugging is also easy, I actually hate people that rely solely on the guild to do 5 mans.

If they weren't pre bis, only raid logging and had the same prio as me, I'd probably be a bit pissed. That's why I look for guilds with a loot council.

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Your mages amd locks and going for tier gear? Explains your 11th or 13th lol.

Our Mage CL is trying to get 1 or 2 of our mages to for tier gear, we're all like "no".

[BeepBoo]

No shit. You need to challenge yourself if you want to have fun though. Which means getting world buffs and consumables for speed clearing and parsing.

If the "challenge" of the game is finding the motivation to go out and do some fucking chores before getting to hop in and do the activity I really want to be doing, I think that means the game sucks. FWIW, I don't play classic... or wow at all any more SPECIFICALLY because I came to this realization. Too many other games out there that don't demand I waste my time. I get to jump right into the juicy parts of so much and I get to do that and feel satisfied for way more than 4-8 hours a week.

[Finear]

And that's where you're wrong man. You wanna know what's needed for a raid to do well? Here's a small list off the top of my head.

1) No retards - this is achieved by the officers responsible of recruiting
2) Little to no drama - this is achieved by the members being GOOD members, and the officers keeping the raiding environment healthy
3) Little to no LOOT DRAMA - this is achieved by a fair and transparent loot system, that everyone has access to, and the rules are known in advance
4) Solid preparation of tactics - this is achieved by the raid leader, usually an officer, doing his research. For my guild in Classic, our team of officers jumped onto retail and visited BWL on their 110s and 120s, in order to remember the layout of the dungeon, various boss abilities, how the trash moves etc etc.
5) Check-up that everyone is properly enchanted - this is achieved by the Guild Enchanter (in this case, me) who is responsible for keeping everyone's enchants up to date, and kindly/jokingly bitch at them to get their enchants in order.

There's obviously more, this was just off the top of my head, but you are wrong in saying "Performance in raids is the only thing that matters". It DOES matter, but you know what else matters? A STABLE raiding environment. And this is achieved OUTSIDE of raids, not during the raids - during the raids, you see the FRUITS OF THIS EFFORT, to create this stable raiding environment. I couldn't care less if you bring over the Rogue with Viskag/Thunderfury/8/8T2, if he's an asshole and messes up the raiding environment and the guild atmosphere, I couldn't give a shit about his 100% orange parse on Vael. If I wanted hardcore raiding, where raid performance DOES matter, and raiding environment is stable by definition (lol 20man vs 40man), I would be on Retail, like I was from Vanilla ----> Legion, Tanking for a hardcore raiding guild going for Cutting Edge.

But guess what, I don't want hardcore raiding, which is why I'm on classic, where raids are simple & fun, yet with twice the amount of people, which means performance matters MUCH less, but personalities/raiding environment is the key to success.

this is NOT a requirement, if that's how your guild works that's fine
but you can run a successful team without it

and im doing that, both ways are fine

also i find ot ironic how you don't want hardcore raiding yet you are taking classic so seriously and trying to put your more serious way of playing the game as more casual lol

[Dalinos]

Your few activities are basically just grind rep. Nearly no one is really interested into grinding 10000 mobs to have a recipe when they can just pay 5g to someone else to get what they need.

3 rogues and 4 hunters wanted +15 agility enchant when P3 was released. +15 agility goes for 15 gold FEE on my server. That's a total of 45g + 120g, in fees, that stayed in the pockets of my raiding rogues and hunters, respectively. Why? Because I did it for them, without a fee. Why was I able to do it for them, for free, without a fee?

Because 1 rogue helped me for 2h on one day, 2 hunters helped me for an hour each on another day, our Retridin who doesn't even need the +15 agi enchant helped me for a nice 4h session during another day, and finally, a warlock helped me for a couple of hours on yet another day, cause he wanted the enchant on his rogue alt.

Boom ba-da-boom, after a week of casual farming, with different guildies, my guild acquired the recipe for +15 agi on 1hander, and since I ain't going anywhere, my guild will have access to this recipe, for free, forever. This INCLUDES ofc the raid-loggers, who are very few. This specific example is a prime example of why it's not only raid performance that matters, but general interest in the game. I'll put it this way, actually, since it just dawned on me.

Great raid performance will not necessarily turn into general interest for the game.
General interest for the game will NECESSARILY turn into great raid performance, at some point.

[prwraith]

For classic? No lol. there's a finite amount of things that need to be done. Eventually raid logging will just be how everyone plays. That's why classic was a bad idea, eventually you'll have BiS everything, max rep everything, and nothing else to do. With no expansions coming down the line and being permanently stuck at that level. Why wouldn't you raid log?

[ellieg]

3 rogues and 4 hunters wanted +15 agility enchant when P3 was released. +15 agility goes for 15 gold FEE on my server. That's a total of 45g + 120g, in fees, that stayed in the pockets of my raiding rogues and hunters, respectively. Why? Because I did it for them, without a fee. Why was I able to do it for them, for free, without a fee?

Because 1 rogue helped me for 2h on one day, 2 hunters helped me for an hour each on another day, our Retridin who doesn't even need the +15 agi enchant helped me for a nice 4h session during another day, and finally, a warlock helped me for a couple of hours on yet another day, cause he wanted the enchant on his rogue alt.

Boom ba-da-boom, after a week of casual farming, with different guildies, my guild acquired the recipe for +15 agi on 1hander, and since I ain't going anywhere, my guild will have access to this recipe, for free, forever. This INCLUDES ofc the raid-loggers, who are very few. This specific example is a prime example of why it's not only raid performance that matters, but general interest in the game. I'll put it this way, actually, since it just dawned on me.

Great raid performance will not necessarily turn into general interest for the game.
General interest for the game will NECESSARILY turn into great raid performance, at some point.

I got those enchants free from a guildy because he farmed the rep to make bank off of it selling to non guildies.

[kranur]

3 rogues and 4 hunters wanted +15 agility enchant when P3 was released. +15 agility goes for 15 gold FEE on my server. That's a total of 45g + 120g, in fees, that stayed in the pockets of my raiding rogues and hunters, respectively. Why? Because I did it for them, without a fee. Why was I able to do it for them, for free, without a fee?

Because 1 rogue helped me for 2h on one day, 2 hunters helped me for an hour each on another day, our Retridin who doesn't even need the +15 agi enchant helped me for a nice 4h session during another day, and finally, a warlock helped me for a couple of hours on yet another day, cause he wanted the enchant on his rogue alt.

Boom ba-da-boom, after a week of casual farming, with different guildies, my guild acquired the recipe for +15 agi on 1hander, and since I ain't going anywhere, my guild will have access to this recipe, for free, forever. This INCLUDES ofc the raid-loggers, who are very few. This specific example is a prime example of why it's not only raid performance that matters, but general interest in the game. I'll put it this way, actually, since it just dawned on me.

Great raid performance will not necessarily turn into general interest for the game.
General interest for the game will NECESSARILY turn into great raid performance, at some point.

Good job. So someone spent 1h 2h 4h to save 15g. Good trade.

[Dalinos]

this is NOT a requirement, if that's how your guild works that's fine
but you can run a successful team without it

and im doing that, both ways are fine

also i find ot ironic how you don't want hardcore raiding yet you are taking classic so seriously and trying to put your more serious way of playing the game as more casual lol

I don't want hardcore raiding in the sense that I quite enjoy raiding twice a week, one-shotting everything (because people know what to do and bring world buffs/consumables) and bantering on Discord after a long day at the office. Don't get me wrong - wiping 400+times on Archimonde in TBC or 250+ times on Heroic LK25 in WOTLK was an amazing experience....but I was 16 and 18 yrs old at the time, not 28 with a full-time job, bills to pay, yada yada yada.

I guess I'm just a sucker for social gatherings where everyone is working together for a common goal. When we had JUST started doing MC, I remember our Pala class leader saying, at the end of the 3rd raid or so, that

"Guys I am so proud of you, of this team, it is very obvious from our clear times and how the bosses are dropping and how the trash clearing is going that you've all been putting work on your characters, getting the required reps, getting the dungeon items, ofc the loot from raids also helps but it's so little, I just wanted to say each and everyone's personal effort is very visible to the officer team, thank you".

That was an amazing feeling, even more amazing than when I got promoted in my RL job 3 weeks later (since I kinda knew that one was coming anyways lolololol).

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Good job. So someone spent 1h 2h 4h to save 15g. Good trade.

No, genius, did you even bother reading my paragraphs? DIFFERENT people helped me every day over the COURSE of one full week, and they didn't save "15g", the ROGUES saved 15g cause they only enchant dagger offhander with it, the Hunters saved 30g each, cause they need it 2 times, and not only that, but they will NEVER have to pay for +15 agi on 1h while Im around, not even when they get their AQ weaps or their naxx weaps. Reading comprehension is hard, isn't it.

[ellieg]

I don't want hardcore raiding in the sense that I quite enjoy raiding twice a week, one-shotting everything (because people know what to do and bring world buffs/consumables) and bantering on Discord after a long day at the office. Don't get me wrong - wiping 400+times on Archimonde in TBC or 250+ times on Heroic LK25 in WOTLK was an amazing experience....but I was 16 and 18 yrs old at the time, not 28 with a full-time job, bills to pay, yada yada yada.

I guess I'm just a sucker for social gatherings where everyone is working together for a common goal. When we had JUST started doing MC, I remember our Pala class leader saying, at the end of the 3rd raid or so, that

"Guys I am so proud of you, of this team, it is very obvious from our clear times and how the bosses are dropping and how the trash clearing is going that you've all been putting work on your characters, getting the required reps, getting the dungeon items, ofc the loot from raids also helps but it's so little, I just wanted to say each and everyone's personal effort is very visible to the officer team, thank you".

That was an amazing feeling, even more amazing than when I got promoted in my RL job 3 weeks later (since I kinda knew that one was coming anyways lolololol).

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No, genius, did you even bother reading my paragraphs? DIFFERENT people helped me every day over the COURSE of one full week, and they didn't save "15g", the ROGUES saved 15g cause they only enchant dagger offhander with it, the Hunters saved 30g each, cause they need it 2 times, and not only that, but they will NEVER have to pay for +15 agi on 1h while Im around, not even when they get their AQ weaps or their naxx weaps. Reading comprehension is hard, isn't it.

Hunters save 1 tribute run worth of gold (that they can do in 20 mins) to get both weapons enchanted. If you spent that time farming gold, it wouldve been a better investment. The hours of farming would come out to enough gold to get all of their weapon upgrades enchanted.

[Shaetha]

-snip-

100% effort for a raid is showing up with your shit ready to go and knowing what to do. Doing any more than that is doing someone else's job. There is a finite amount of work that needs done. There is always stuff you can do that goes beyond that line, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. Just know that you're more likely to be used than rewarded, and you're an enabler if you do too much. Did your guild help you to get those patterns? If so, you owe them to do the combines. If you did it alone, you did it for yourself, and you're allowing your guild to use you. The only reward you deserve is the reward inherent to having the patterns.

If you ask people to do something they don't enjoy with their entertainment time, they're just going to leave. WoW is not a job. It's a video game. It actively costs money to play. If they carry the burden of getting ready to raid, it's greedy to ask for more. Raid loggers either raid log or they don't play. Either you deal with that fact, or you play with people who don't do it.

You're resentful of a problem of your own creation. Before you say you're not resentful, you're the person that's trying to tell people they're playing the game wrong. You're the person saying they despise people who raid log. You can bullshit all you want, but if you resent the action you will resent the person doing the action eventually, and your thought you're entitled to loot more than them is symptomatic of that resentment.

Side Note: If your officers have that many burdens your officers are either bad at delegating, or your guild has major interpersonal issues. Classic is a solved game.

[Dalinos]

I got those enchants free from a guildy because he farmed the rep to make bank off of it selling to non guildies.

Again, see my previous comment. I farmed this rep for the GUILD first and foremost, the fact I can make some cash selling to non-guildies is a bonus. For your guildie, he farmed this rep for HIMSELF, to make money off of non-guildies, and the fact he can do it for his guildies is a nice bonus. Again, difference of perspectives

[Finear]

I guess I'm just a sucker for social gatherings where everyone is working together for a common goal. When we had JUST started doing MC, I remember our Pala class leader saying, at the end of the 3rd raid or so, that

and im not, and thats fine, i found like-minded people and we are doing great just raidlogging

also below sounds like ultime cringe for me or like corpo speech at work i get from time to time, wow is not a job for me

"Guys I am so proud of you, of this team, it is very obvious from our clear times and how the bosses are dropping and how the trash clearing is going that you've all been putting work on your characters, getting the required reps, getting the dungeon items, ofc the loot from raids also helps but it's so little, I just wanted to say each and everyone's personal effort is very visible to the officer team, thank you".


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[Dalinos]

100% effort for a raid is showing up with your shit ready to go and knowing what to do. Doing any more than that is doing someone else's job. There is a finite amount of work that needs done. There is always stuff you can do that goes beyond that line, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. Just know that you're more likely to be used than rewarded, and you're an enabler if you do too much. Did your guild help you to get those patterns? If so, you owe them to do the combines. If you did it alone, you did it for yourself, and you're allowing your guild to use you. The only reward you deserve is the reward inherent to having the patterns.

If you ask people to do something they don't enjoy with their entertainment time, they're just going to leave. WoW is not a job. It's a video game. It actively costs money to play. If they carry the burden of getting ready to raid, it's greedy to ask for more. Raid loggers either raid log or they don't play. Either you deal with that fact, or you play with people who don't do it.

You're resentful of a problem of your own creation. Before you say you're not resentful, you're the person that's trying to tell people they're playing the game wrong. You're the person saying they despise people who raid log. You can bullshit all you want, but if you resent the action you will resent the person doing the action eventually, and your thought you're entitled to loot more than them is symptomatic of that resentment.

Side Note: If your officers have that many burdens your officers are either bad at delegating, or your guild has major interpersonal issues. Classic is a solved game.

But of course my guild helped me farm these patterns. That's...exactly what a guild is for. Helping each other so we can all progress, in one way or another, whether it be gear/rep/recipes/you name it. My guild helps me, I help my guild...that's how it's always been, that's how it always will be.

I may be over-exaggerating the burden of the officer team, but it's to prove a point. When someone says "Good raid performance is all that's required for a guild to run properly" I get the need to mention that, no, especially in classic, Logistics take up a big amount of time, whereas good raid performance just means you'll kill Ragnaros in 2:30 minutes instead of 1:45. That being said, I feel blessed by the fact my guild doesn't contain many raid-loggers, and even the ones who WERE raid-logging, changed attitude once they saw what they were missing out on. One strat UD run with me and our mage class leader and I can guarantee you'll be roaring with laughter in the first 10 minutes. That's what they experienced, and they stopped raid logging.

On-topic - I never said they don't deserve loot, or deserve a lower priority on loot. If they show up on time, prepared & ready, and aren't idiots. Although as others have said I wouldn't give PVP 2handers or important items such as TOEP, Choker, Nef loot to a raid-logger.

[Nnyco]

You make it sound like theres anythin else todo in classic. lul

[Sofo1]

if you want them to leave your guild and no longer have the raidloggers that you probably (don't know it for a fact) need to raid then sure give them a lower prio on loot! if your guild has no requirements except showing up there is no reason for them to be expected to do more than just raid.

[Rendark]

If you want to kill your raid team then sure. You don't need to spend all day playing wow to be a good raider.

[Einsz]

OP is your average Classic Gamer, doesn't give a fuck about anything else apart from getting loot. Can't reserve loot for himself in guild raids so tries to look for excuses to up his chances on getting more loot. No dude, raid loggers deserve loot as much as you do. There is nothing to do in Classic apart from auto attacking raids once a week.