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  1. #621
    Salty Feline Overlord Beerbill Society's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    buying BoE’s has been a thing since
    Classic so if that’s your metric then the game has always been P2W.
    You can't buy gold from blizzard in classic, I think that the op point.


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  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by Beerbill Society View Post
    You can't buy gold from blizzard in classic, I think that the op point.
    Woww damnnnn.. have you seen the millions of gold sellers that privatly sell gold for real money? It exists just like in retail. Get a grip people. Wow is not pay2win, and never will be. People thinking other wise are just unintelligent fucks that dont know nothing.

    I have spoken.

    Close the thread now pretty please!

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    you do realise it was so common that rather than banning so many players blizz ignored it and later came with token?

    and honestly, i know dozens of people who were buying/selling (i was selling myself at one point) and never heard anyone actualy getting banned over it...
    I genuinely do not see what you're trying to accomplish here. The 2 scenarios are very obviously different, where one is against ToS, the other is Blizzard selling the gold themselves (id est, not against ToS), possibly to prevent people from resorting to illicitly buying/selling gold, more likely to make more money. It's like I told you I'm allergic to peanuts but you don't buy it since you saw me eat cashews. Best outcome you can hope for here is that I agree with you that WoW came with a hint of P2W from the start.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    True. But bear in mind that the context of the discussion is about feeling the need to resort to tokens in order to compete. Those 3% serve to illustrate what is possible if someone were to choose to compete.

    Yes, gold is important if one wishes to be competitive in this game. But the crux of my argument is that if one is actually committed to being competitive, then there is no need to resort to tokens to obtain that gold because the same attributes that lead to players/guilds being competitive also make them very effective at making gold in game, to the extent that tokens simply aren't an attractive proposition.
    I don't wanna make another long post, so I'll leave it at these 2 arguments. You say that the 3% with the Brutosaur mount show what is possible when you compete, yet we do not know how many of that 3% are people who didn't buy any tokens. The fact that only 3% has it and that the mount is, at best (or worst, depending on your perspective), available for another 9 months, shows that people who want that mount but aren't making enough gold might feel compelled to resort to tokens.


    As for you dodging the question and the crux of your argument, I feel like you're dancing around the point and arguing about something I never contested. You already stated that gold is important multiple times yet your only argument against this being P2W is that you can also achieve it by not slacking or going hard. Funnily enough, people use that exact argument to defend HS not being P2W, as did I, in the past. I stand by my initial point that if 2 people of equal skill/standing are trying to accomplish a specific objective within the game, the person spending money has the advantage. Even if you consider 2 HC guilds competing to be a poor example, getting the expensive gold mounts, doing a +15, getting the mage tower back in legion, getting "the Faceless One", getting just about any PvP reward,... Almost anything your average player tries to achieve within this game can be made easier by buying tokens, in my head, that's pretty much as perfect of an example of P2W as you can get. The only thing that they aren't selling yet is gear that is otherwise unobtainable. By gear I mean gear with stats, as the ship on selling transmog has set sail years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I apologise that it came across that way.
    The only reason that kinda stuff annoys me is because it'd get you a failing grade in a middle school debate, yet apparently modern day politicians are too puerile to adhere to that.

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Where did I say they couldn't corrupt? I'm saying buying a corrupted BoE, which has corruption, is obviously a better item than a normal boss drop which has a slim chance of corruption, and even slimmer chance of being a good one.

    You really don't know anything about the game do you
    Those goalposts are quite mobile.
    First it was "They are better than anything that you can find in a raid"
    Then "Mythic BoEs are better than normal mode raid drops"
    Now we have "Buying items circumvents RNG, so it's obviously better"

    Repeating that I don't know anything about the game doesn't really bother me. Keep going. You raid normal, I don't. I'll sell you my BoEs though, I've made a few mill this patch from it already. You can have a discount for entertaining me the past day or so.

  5. #625
    Anyone who thinks WoW isn't pay to win now needs to have their brains examined. Never in the history of World of Warcraft could you swipe your credit card and be guaranteed to get an item that increases your DPS by such a substantial amount that you absolutely destroy anyone else regardless of skill and rotation. There's no reason to spend time on your character anymore. Just grab your credit card and pay Blizzard, join the party!

    The game is 100% dead until this shit changes.

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Gold can be used to get almost anything ingame so WoW has p2w, it can be a power upgrade or an acheivement most people cant get otherwise, its still p2w
    But you can also reasonably obtain everything you can buy for gold inside the game itself. You can even easily make the same sums of gold you can buy.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    No, my point has always been the same. Corrupted BoEs, are better than raid look (unless obviously that raid loot has the same corruption) obviously because there's RNG tied behind corrupted item, and even more RNG behind getting the best one for you - it's foolish to assume all raid loot will also carry your ideal a corruption, whereas if you're prepared to spend hundreds of thousands of gold, if not millions, on a corrupted BoE - it obviously will. That how they're better than anything you can find in raid - I could get a ring with rank 3 twilight devastation from the raid - but it's not likely - so it's dumb to assume I *WILL* get that item. That's the difference.

    Then you said that normal raid loot is better than the BoEs people are buying, so your second line was never my argument - however mythic BoEs are indeed objectively better than normal raid gear.

    Finally, yes - it's fairly obvious buying an item that has your ideal corruption is better than hoping that item will drop - I'm not sure why you can't understand that.

    So, no - I'm not moving the goalposts, you're just not bright enough to understand a really simple concept. For someone who supposedly raids and makes millions from this system in the few weeks the patch has been out - you sure don't understand much about it. But I'm sure you're being completely honest with me
    I literally never said that raid gear was better than the BoEs.....because the BoEs are raid gear. I don't understand how you don't get this. You're saying that the BoEs are more powerful than themselves lmao. You're complaining that BoEs exist that are on par with raid drops....this has existed for.....let me check my notes.....15 years. At least wing 3 of LFR got released for you!

  8. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    True that, I'm convinced. I'm indeed more likely to believe your word for it than of the countless sims and numbers readily available online. Corruptions don't affect the numbers in the game all that much. Thank you random forum guy.
    Sims can be deceptive, especially in Infinite Star's case. Its performance is incredibly random; one fight it can do barely 1M damage, the next close to 3M if not more. It also sims great on Patchwerk fights which assume a single target and perfect uptime, but in an actual raid there's literally one Mythic fight like that, Shad'har, which is a parsemonger's dream but not much of an actual DPS check when all's said and done. Even just on Skitra, having to switch to the illusions kills your ramp-up.

    I'm not saying it's a bad corruption, mind, quite the contrary. But it's hardly as overpowered as some claim it is after taking one look at sims. The only OP corruption left in my mind is Twilight Devastation, and even then mostly in M+ and aoe fights like Hivemind.

  9. #629
    What is it? 130k for 20$? If someone wants to drop 400-500$ for a single upgrade then more power to them i suppose.

  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    The whole key part of this argument is corruption. Not the items themselves, there's a reason this argument is happening now and not any other raid tier - because we now have items that easily do 20,30,40% of your damage BY THEMSELVES - raid gear by default, aside from a few weapons - doesn't have corruption on. This inherently makes raid gear inferior to a BoE that's already dropped with a corruption that's on the AH - how are you not getting this?

    And I was never even complaining genius, which again just proves how you don't seem to understand anything. As for LFR, personally I haven't done it since MoP, but I think it's cute you try to imply that someone doing LFR would be a bad player, and therefore invalidate any argument they have, (which in itself is also ridiculous) Shows how insecure you are.

    Please try to be smarter with your next reply, I believe in you man
    So what about titanforging? That existed. That made a significant difference in power. You're just bitching to bitch. BoEs = Raid gear. Raid gear can corrupt. There are many problems with the corruption system. Being able to buy BoEs is not one of them.

    Remember when you said that 470 BoE with corruption was better than a 450 without and you thought that was a contribution to the thread? lol
    Last edited by Torgent; 2020-02-27 at 04:11 PM.

  11. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    You say that the 3% with the Brutosaur mount show what is possible when you compete, yet we do not know how many of that 3% are people who didn't buy any tokens. The fact that only 3% has it and that the mount is, at best (or worst, depending on your perspective), available for another 9 months, shows that people who want that mount but aren't making enough gold might feel compelled to resort to tokens.
    Obviously it's hard to prove definitively given that we just don't have that data, however I expect that there is some insight to be gained from looking at the token price, tracked on wowtoken.info.

    Any time any big event happens that would affect token buying, it's pretty evident on the graphs. You can clearly see a spike in the price of tokens on EU and US realms on 2 November 2019. This co-incided with the announcement of Classic Phase 2. Clearly quite a few people bought tokens with gold to buy gametime.

    Then we have the announcement of the the Brutosaur becoming obsolete on November 21/22. There is actually a noticeable dip on Chinese realms, indicating that the Chinese were buying gold to buy the mount. There is a smallish glitch on the US market, indicating some activity. On the EU market basically nothing.


    I know there was a talk about how this was all just a big plot by Blizzard to get people to buy tokens. Yet I don't see any evidence of the kind of behaviour that indicates more than a handful of players on EU, and possibly a few more than that on US servers. And while a lot of players, both on the forums and in game complained about their belief that lots of players would be buying gold with $$, it was always people complaining about other people who might.

    I've never actually heard first hand of anyone using tokens to buy something expensive like a brutosaur. And frankly, it doesn't surprise me. While it is an option open to anyone, the reality is that it is actually pretty exclusionary on the basis of cost. I earn a decent salary, but I honestly balk at the prospect of forking out 500 Euro to buy a Brutosaur. And I cannot imagine that any significant number of players in the game is earning the kind of money that they wouldn't blink twice. Consider that to qualify for the top 1% of income earners, you need to earn $33K, $750 for a brutosaur is around 25% of their monthy salary. So I would argue that considerably less than 1% of the global population would consider spending $$ to buy a brutosaur as feasible. So I'd say, certainly a lot less than 3% of the WoW population would consider it.

    The brutosaur is the sort of the thing that you buy if you're very good at making a lot of gold in the game, or if you're in the top 0.1% of the global wealth.


    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    As for you dodging the question and the crux of your argument, I feel like you're dancing around the point and arguing about something I never contested. You already stated that gold is important multiple times yet your only argument against this being P2W is that you can also achieve it by not slacking or going hard. Funnily enough, people use that exact argument to defend HS not being P2W, as did I, in the past. I stand by my initial point that if 2 people of equal skill/standing are trying to accomplish a specific objective within the game, the person spending money has the advantage.
    Only if the two people are deficient at making gold without tokens. It's like going to a professional footballer (soccer) who already earns $100M a year and claiming that the fact that they get free shoes in the deal gives them some sort of competitive advantage.

    Having a lot of gold is an advantage. Being able to buy that gold with money is only an advantage if attaining that gold through other means would put you at a disadvantage. And in WoW, it does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    Even if you consider 2 HC guilds competing to be a poor example, getting the expensive gold mounts, doing a +15, getting the mage tower back in legion, getting "the Faceless One", getting just about any PvP reward,... Almost anything your average player tries to achieve within this game can be made easier by buying tokens, in my head, that's pretty much as perfect of an example of P2W as you can get.
    I agree with your assertion that all those things can be made easier for an average player. But that doesn't qualify as p2w as far as I am concerned, because those things were perfectly attainable without the need to resorting to tokens.

    As I have said in other posts, there is a reason why the term p2w carries such negative connotations. And it's not because p2w is about being able to gain some arbitrary advantage in the game. It's because when something is pay to win, the implication is that not paying guarantees that you can't win. And that is problematic because the parameters of the game shift from issues like skill and commitment to whether you're prepared to spend money, which in turn compels people who take the game seriously to pull out their credit cards.

    So while I'll agree that the general ability to buy some sort of leg up for an average player has some of the elements of p2w, it critically does not include any of the traits that make p2w disagreeable. By all means, let the guys in the other hc guild spend $200 each to get an advantage over me. That isn't going to make me and my guild feel inclined even in the slightest to go out and do the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    The only reason that kinda stuff annoys me is because it'd get you a failing grade in a middle school debate, yet apparently modern day politicians are too puerile to adhere to that.
    As a debater who did very well at it, it's a lot easier for things to come across as intended when you're actually speaking, because the way in which speak carries a lot of meaning. That is all lost in the written word, making the reader susceptible to misinterpretation.

  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Not on the scale corruption has. You're objectively wrong or just lying if you think titanforging was ever as impactful towards your dps as corruption gear is. And again, how am I bitching - if I'm not even complaining? I think corruption is a bad system overall, because of the RNG - I've not complained once in this thread before now, you're just assuming. Again.

    I'm done with you my friend, you're either too dishonest, or too thick to have this conversation with. Either way I'm not wasting any more time on you
    I never said it was as impactful. I said it was impactful. You're complaining that being able to buy the BoEs is pay to win...that's literally what you're doing in this thread lmao. Just because you don't think it's bitching, doesn't mean it isn't. GL this week on Heroic Wrathion. I believe in you.

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    I genuinely do not see what you're trying to accomplish here. The 2 scenarios are very obviously different, where one is against ToS, the other is Blizzard selling the gold themselves (id est, not against ToS), possibly to prevent people from resorting to illicitly buying/selling gold, more likely to make more money. It's like I told you I'm allergic to peanuts but you don't buy it since you saw me eat cashews. Best outcome you can hope for here is that I agree with you that WoW came with a hint of P2W from the start.
    first of all, blizz is not selling gold, other players are, same with the BoE gear on AH, sure blizzard make it possible but that doesnt change the FACT that it was always possible to buy gold/gear/boosts from other players...

    i dont wanna accomplish anything, im just saying it always was possible...

    and btw, its still against ToS to buy gold from "outside sources", yet the bussiness is still thriving, people are going against ToS to save couple bucks, so you can be sure they did go against ToS when "outside sources" were the only option...

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    But you can also reasonably obtain everything you can buy for gold inside the game itself. You can even easily make the same sums of gold you can buy.
    not really you could go for months without getting a tier 3 corruption or not even get all the items that go together that give a massive damage boost, so you cant reasonably get everything ingame as its completely by chance, the players who would pay for boosts are usually the ones who dont really make gold ingame, the percentage of players that are able to earn millions of gold is not that much.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    not really you could go for months without getting a tier 3 corruption or not even get all the items that go together that give a massive damage boost, so you cant reasonably get everything ingame as its completely by chance, the players who would pay for boosts are usually the ones who dont really make gold ingame, the percentage of players that are able to earn millions of gold is not that much.
    You can easily earn millions gold, people choose not to.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    You can easily earn millions gold, people choose not to.
    Citation needed... while passively earning gold isn't difficult I would argue it is time consuming and tedious. The only real rapid ways I'm aware of is selling carry runs.

    It' isn't good design either way.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Sims can be deceptive, especially in Infinite Star's case. Its performance is incredibly random; one fight it can do barely 1M damage, the next close to 3M if not more. It also sims great on Patchwerk fights which assume a single target and perfect uptime, but in an actual raid there's literally one Mythic fight like that, Shad'har, which is a parsemonger's dream but not much of an actual DPS check when all's said and done. Even just on Skitra, having to switch to the illusions kills your ramp-up.

    I'm not saying it's a bad corruption, mind, quite the contrary. But it's hardly as overpowered as some claim it is after taking one look at sims. The only OP corruption left in my mind is Twilight Devastation, and even then mostly in M+ and aoe fights like Hivemind.
    It's still more of a damage increase, regardless of how unreliable it might be, than the guy made it out to be.

    Damage has always varied on minor RNG situational stats, as per mentioned on the OP video - but one has to be daft to say that the situation hasn't gotten worse (or claim it's a minor increase only) with Corruption.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    I'm not arguing about pay to win, because i see no winning in wow, as i don't see a league of legends as pay to win game, just because you can buy a character using real money (i mean, if you goal for winning is getting a renekton asap - good for you, the game is pay to win i guess). I'm saying that wow always had open economy, you could get gold, items, raid spot, whatever for real money, gold, or other services, Token is just a cherry on top (for me), because it's what players wanted (judging by their actions), there was demand and blizzard provided players with a secure way to transfer gold from one person to another for cash, instead of dealing with keyloggers or scamming.

    If players are against token - then it wouldn't exist in the first place, because players showed that they are willing to pay money to get gold off the hands of other players.
    If players are against powerful BoEs - well tough luck, these things existed throughout the history of the game, good morning sunshine etc. Same goes about open player-made economy
    Quick reply while waiting in the LASIK office(might be my last until my eyes heal).

    I know there has been a lot of discussion about the definition of P2W. For me it comes down to this: Are you paying real world money to bypass or skip the normal gameplay?

    WoW is a progression-based game. Whether it's leveling or grinding or gathering. "Winning" in this definition is completing or moving forward in progression, since WoW is not a game you can finish by traditional definitions. This why character boosts, but not server transfers, also fall under P2W(albeit marginally).

    The token lets you pay money to skip the normal process of acquiring gold, which is a normal part of progress within the game. That gold can then be used for all manner of gear or carries that you otherwise would have had to play the game to acquire, whether through playing the AH or farming the gold yourself through various means. All the other considerations, at least in my opinion, are secondary to that.

    The token is a necessary evil to combat black market gold selling. That doesn't mean it's perfect, or that some players aren't against it. Nor does it mean Blizzard shouldn't take extra steps to avoid the token increasing the P2W aspects of the gameplay dynamic.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-02-27 at 10:20 PM.

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    You can easily earn millions gold, people choose not to.
    you cant just easily earn millions of gold otherwise everyone would have way more and then things would cost 10s of millions instead, only a small percentage of players have more than a million gold let alone more to spend on boosts and such, you need to put in time an some effort to make a million gold or get so lucky with a boe drop from hc or mythic raiding that has the right corruption.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    It's still more of a damage increase, regardless of how unreliable it might be, than the guy made it out to be.

    Damage has always varied on minor RNG situational stats, as per mentioned on the OP video - but one has to be daft to say that the situation hasn't gotten worse (or claim it's a minor increase only) with Corruption.
    Oh, the sheer variance is indeed frustrating. Feeling like a lot of your performance is tied to an RNG proc that you have 0 control over isn't great. Essences were much better at that, given that they were abilities so them contributing a lot to your DPS was natural and good. No arguments here.

    But still, I've seen wild claims in this thread, saying corruption accounts for 30 or even 50% of your DPS or whatever. That literally only happens on Hivemind if you have godly TD procs. Which, as I said, isn't a good thing, but corruption isn't THAT much of a dealbreaker. Top guilds chased it like they chase any and every advantage, for most everyone else it's a nice bonus and hardly mandatory.

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