Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[cubby]

....did somebody steal your account!? o_O

You and I literally had a whole PM exchange about how unbelievably off everybody was in Iowa/Nevada and were both wondering/speculating why they were so off.

Who the hell are you? I feel like I'm speaking to Pod-Person Cubby here! o_O

Which didn't link any data...can you stop with this childish bullshit name-calling? I'm asking you for data. Do you have it or not?

[Dacien]

Is it true the SEIU is going to spend $150 million to help defeat Trump? That's a lot of money.

[mvaliz]

Calling that out for criticism is just fine. As is criticizing Biden for embellishment/lying is.

And both help the GOP, like I said. But you think one helps the GOP whereas the other doesn't for some reason.

You just flipped again! Now you're AGREEING with me on this!? You having an anurism or something? o_O

[cubby]

Could we move off this? It's not even a good point. If someone is a pedophile rapist, is it a GOP talking point to attack them on that? The GOP has their talking points anyway; why should Biden get a free pass on materially misstating nearly every statistic he spits out?

No, we can't. It's actually an extremely valid point, one of which most of you are ignoring. The bolded part of your comment demonstrates that.

Calling candidates names from GOP talking points hurts the entire DNC. Which is separate/different than valid criticism of a candidate.

You can refer back to Edge and I discussion to see some salient points. I'm happy to elaborate.

[mvaliz]

Which didn't link any data...can you stop with this childish bullshit name-calling? I'm asking you for data. Do you have it or not?

THE PRIOR POLLS VS THE RESULTS!

Fuck, man - You fucking do it yourself you Damn Judas! Show me where an Iowa poll had Biden in FOURTH place prior to the caucus!! We TALKED About this! We discussed this!!! We had a civil conversation on how Biden/Bernie was polling neck-n-neck in Iowa and then BLAM, he was in FOURTH place post-results!! It was literally the main topic of news broadcasts and the surprising results! We ALL talked about it on the forums here!

Are you claiming all those polls were fabricated/fictional and everybody just made it all up!?!

EDIT: since you're turning into an insuferable Sea Lion - here's one easily found poll on Feb 3 that had Biden in a clear 2nd place by only a couple points difference from Bernie.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...s-winner-polls

[Milchshake]

13% of registered Democrats in FL is pretty bad.

[cubby]

And both help the GOP, like I said. But you think one helps the GOP whereas the other doesn't for some reason.

You just flipped again! Now you're AGREEING with me on this!? You having an anurism or something? o_O

No - my position on this point has remained the same, throughout your thorough and embarrassing misunderstanding, time and again, during this conversation. But I can that an adult conversation with you is no long possible. Asking about aneurysm's and other such mental issues makes me not really interested in taking your ideas seriously any more. Let me know if you'd like to continue later.

[Grapemask]

What matters is that, whoever the nominee ends up being, Democrats turn out and vote for them anyway. You supported Bernie but Biden got the nom? Vote. You wanted Warren but Klobuchar came from behind to snag it? Vote. Hell, if the stars darken and the heavens fill with rage, and Bloomberg gets the nom, VOTE.

I've said it before, but any leftwinger or anti-Trumper that votes Bloomberg may as well put on the MAGA hat. They're not actually mad about Trump's values. They're mad that he's so rude when he expresses them. Anyone else I could get behind with varying degrees of displeasure, and maybe need a little bit of coaxing into as we approach the Buttigieg end of the spectrum, but Bloomberg is the sick joke played on democrats just to test if liberals really are any of the things they claim or if they're the same lying tribalists that conservatives appeared to be after their own 2016 fiasco. It's almost poetic. You couldn't write better fiction.

I think quite a few people here though have mentioned this thing that Bernie Sanders voters won't commit to voting for anyone else if their guy loses, while others will vote for Bernie Sanders if he wins. I think that's a bit of a false equivalency that shows that non-Sanders folks just don't get what Sanders' crowd is about.

Folks for the moderates don't need anything Sanders is offering. Nearly all of them will be fine even if Trump wins. They'll have more ideological issues to complain about, but their lives fundamentally will go unchanged. They're making choices based on their conscience, or I suspect largely their team.

But Sanders supporters are people who want better healthcare. They want debt relief. They want better working benefits. They're generally the result of 20 years of increasing economic anxiety and massively widening wealth inequality. They could be wrong about the things they feel are the issues, maybe Sanders' solutions aren't good ways of fixing them, most likely he can't even enact most of what he promises - but the key is that he's recognizing the problem they're facing and he's offering solutions, while other candidates are offering them amenities to keep them happy in their suffering but not alleviating it. Sanders wants to demolish the healthcare system that's kept some of them from getting any treatment at all for the last 10 years even though they have insurance. Buttigieg wants to protect it, with some concessions that might make their pain a little easier to swallow but still painful all the same.

For Sanders supporters, voting blue no matter who seems like rewarding your jailers for giving you an extra meal while still remaining in jail. Sure, maybe the guy on the other team will give them shittier meals or no meals at all, but it's all just more shit in the endless parade of shit they already deal with. They want out.

Dave Chapelle said something to that effect on the SNL episode after Trump won. He was disappointed, but he felt Trump winning wasn't as bad as others made it out to be, because it wasn't like blacks hadn't already been living under regimes of racists for the entirety of modern civilization. Same shit different day.

[cubby]

THE PRIOR POLLS VS THE RESULTS!

Fuck, man - You fucking do it yourself you Damn Judas! Show me where an Iowa poll had Biden in FOURTH place!! We TALKED About this! We discussed this!!! We had a civil conversation on how Biden/Bernie was polling neck-n-neck in Iowa and then BLAM, he was in FOURTH place post-results!! It was literally the main topic of news broadcasts and the surprising results! We ALL talked about it on the forums here!

Are you claiming all those polls were fabricated/fictional and everybody just made it all up!?!

Right - do you have the data for that point. "Damned Judas" - maybe it's time for a break for you?

I'm asking you if you have data, which wasn't in our PM discussion, to back what you're saying. I'm just asking you to back your idea/claim.

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I've said it before, but any leftwinger or anti-Trumper that votes Bloomberg may as well put on the MAGA hat. They're not actually mad about Trump's values. They're mad that he's so rude when he expresses them. Anyone else I could get behind with varying degrees of displeasure, and maybe need a little bit of coaxing into as we approach the Buttigieg end of the spectrum, but Bloomberg is the sick joke played on democrats just to test if liberals really are any of the things they claim or if they're the same lying tribalists that conservatives appeared to be after their own 2016 fiasco. It's almost poetic. You couldn't write better fiction.

I think quite a few people here though have mentioned this thing that Bernie Sanders voters won't commit to voting for anyone else if their guy loses, while others will vote for Bernie Sanders if he wins. I think that's a bit of a false equivalency that shows that non-Sanders folks just don't get what Sanders' crowd is about.

Folks for the moderates don't need anything Sanders is offering. Nearly all of them will be fine even if Trump wins. They'll have more ideological issues to complain about, but their lives fundamentally will go unchanged. They're making choices based on their conscience, or I suspect largely their team.

But Sanders supporters are people who want better healthcare. They want debt relief. They want better working benefits. They're generally the result of 20 years of increasing economic anxiety and massively widening wealth inequality. They could be wrong about the things they feel are the issues, maybe Sanders' solutions aren't good ways of fixing them, most likely he can't even enact most of what he promises - but the key is that he's recognizing the problem they're facing and he's offering solutions, while other candidates are offering them amenities to keep them happy in their suffering but not alleviating it. Sanders wants to demolish the healthcare system that's kept some of them from getting any treatment at all for the last 10 years even though they have insurance. Buttigieg wants to protect it, with some concessions that might make their pain a little easier to swallow but still painful all the same.

For Sanders supporters, voting blue no matter who seems like rewarding your jailers for giving you an extra meal while still remaining in jail. Sure, maybe the guy on the other team will give them shittier meals or no meals at all, but it's all just more shit in the endless parade of shit they already deal with. They want out.

Dave Chapelle said something to that effect on the SNL episode after Trump won. He was disappointed, but he felt Trump winning wasn't as bad as others made it out to be, because it wasn't like blacks hadn't already been living under regimes of racists for the entirety of modern civilization. Same shit different day.

You may or may not be correct. But, we ALL want Trump out, and that is @Endus's point. We need to vote Trump out, first, and then move on.

[mvaliz]

Right - do you have the data for that point. "Damned Judas" - maybe it's time for a break for you?

I'm asking you if you have data, which wasn't in our PM discussion, to back what you're saying. I'm just asking you to back your idea/claim.

Updated my post - but a Sea Lion like you couldn't be bothered to see it so I'll respond again.

POST: Since you're turning into an insuferable Sea Lion - here's one easily found poll on Feb 3 that had Biden in a clear 2nd place by only a couple points difference from Bernie.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...s-winner-polls[/QUOTE]

Unbelievable that I'm responding with the data debunking something we discussed and agreed on civilly not 2 weeks ago. Fucking christ...

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No - my position on this point has remained the same, throughout your thorough and embarrassing misunderstanding, time and again, during this conversation. But I can that an adult conversation with you is no long possible. Asking about aneurysm's and other such mental issues makes me not really interested in taking your ideas seriously any more. Let me know if you'd like to continue later.

Good god, even your last sentence practically mirrors the final pannel from the Sea Lion comic. >_<

[cubby]

EDIT: since you're turning into an insuferable Sea Lion - here's one easily found poll on Feb 3 that had Biden in a clear 2nd place by only a couple points difference from Bernie.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...s-winner-polls

Asking you to link data to prove your point, which relies on data, isn't sea lioning. Please stop with the name calling.

And it's clear you know what I meant, because you finally did it. So stop with the pearl-clutching bullshit. Be professional or stop responding to me.

[Elegiac]

“Bernie is the only viable candidate and the data supports it!”

“What data.”

“Stop arguing in bad faith, Judas!”

Remind me how Sanders’ cult of personality is different from the current red one?

[Themius]

“Bernie is the only viable candidate and the data supports it!”

“What data.”

“Stop arguing in bad faith, Judas!”

Remind me how Sanders’ cult of personality is different from the current red one?

Well they're not excited about the prospect of locking up and keeping out brown people and muslims.

[Elegiac]

Well they're not excited about the prospect of locking up and keeping out brown people and muslims.

Unless they don’t agree with Medicare for All, of course.

[cubby]

“Bernie is the only viable candidate and the data supports it!”

“What data.”

“Stop arguing in bad faith, Judas!”

Remind me how Sanders’ cult of personality is different from the current red one?

I cannot believe how far off the deep end he just went. I felt like I was watching a clinic on self destruction.

I know some are getting put off by my criticism/name-calling issue, but I would hope that we all could at least keep it on an adult level. Too bad.

[mvaliz]

Asking you to link data to prove your point, which relies on data, isn't sea lioning. Please stop with the name calling.

And it's clear you know what I meant, because you finally did it. So stop with the pearl-clutching bullshit. Be professional or stop responding to me.

Better still, I'm throwing you on Ignore like your bedfellow Elgefcukwhatever.

Unbelievable that you would lie about something we both agreed on publicly, than go on to sea lion me. What the hell happened to you, man. >_<

EDIT: On second thought, I won't. There will be need to help point out your hypocricy

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I cannot believe how far off the deep end he just went. I felt like I was watching a clinic on self destruction.

Hey, that person you quoted says he wont vote in the election if Bernie is the nominee. Would be nice if you actually said something to him about it, but you won't - because he agrees with you and validates your hypocrisy.

[Elegiac]

I cannot believe how far off the deep end he just went. I felt like I was watching a clinic on self destruction.

I know some are getting put off by my criticism/name-calling issue, but I would hope that we all could at least keep it on an adult level. Too bad.

The other funny thing is that a lot of the pro-Bernie freakouts on this forum aren't even like...American citizens. They're left wing Europeans.

Now, conservatives like to say how different American politics is as justification for why X social program can't work - they're not incorrect, but the difference isn't one of administration - it's one of the nature of demographic animus. European politics has a significant difference in that racial and other minority issues never crystallized under a left wing (yes I know the Democrats aren't left wing but they're the left of the two parties) the way they did in the United States. European leftism is traditionally and still largely is solely defined by economic issues. Sound familiar?

Which is why, strangely, you can have an ostensibly left wing party that still has severe problems with antisemitism or race relations.

I'm not going to shit on how the internet has enabled people to compare and contrast their civic conditions with those of other countries, because it's a net good thing. I will point out, however, that a side effect of the importation of European style leftism seems to be dragging some of that baggage with it - which you can see in the repeated mention that "identity politics" is a hindrance to the progressive agenda.

Where this crosses the border into toxicity is what particular set of lessons someone happened to internalise after 2016. Because for a whole lot of people it seems to be "Fine! I'll build my own Trump; with blackjack, and hookers."

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Hey, that person you quoted says he wont vote in the election if Bernie is the nominee.

This is a lie.

I said there were conditions for my support of Bernie. Not that I wouldn't vote for him.

[Edge-]

https://apnews.com/8450292b687cefcaa7ab58037bcc1a46

Someone is spoofing Sanders campaign domains and reaching out to other campaigns pretending to be a part of the Sanders camp. The domain is registered in Russia, but that's not conclusive proof that's where this attempt came from.

[Milchshake]

Unless they don’t agree with Medicare for All, of course.

Is that why Castro locked up all queer folk. That's why I get nervous when tankies praise Castro.

[Themius]

Unless they don’t agree with Medicare for All, of course.

Well because not agreeing with M4A is stupid. Every nation can do it but us?

Every other nation can pay FAR LESS than us GDP wise, but we should be content with paying more than every other nation with universal healthcare, and not covering everyone leading to cancer patients choosing to die as to not burden their loved ones.


This cartoon sums up the wannabe centrists and moderates.