WoW Token comming to Classic.

[deenman]

Everyone will have the loot on either side, in classic they'll just bring one booster of each armor class/main stat, and it won't matter what gear drops.

sure but the thing is in classic you cant control what drops,in bfa you can,that alone is a big bonus if you really care about boosting services,you can bring all armor types in classic,but you can still get unlucky and have only one armor drop,or just low drops in general as is designed,or pala loot for horde(does this even happen on classic or was it changed?)

[arkanon]

I can't say in terms of classic, but it's really not that unusual a thing in bfa.

Let's take a "balanced" mythic raid (no class stacking):
3 plate
4 mail
6 leather
6 cloth
19 total

You pay to get your Demon Hunter (was gonna do Druid, but you'd probably call that extreme since they cover all roles and would get more loot because of it) boosted and you get all usable items. That means:
All Leather, Rings, Melee/Tank Trinkets, Most 1h Weapons; Chance of a player getting an item is slightly higher than 20% (since personal loot provides a small bonus over other loot rules, afaik they didn't remove that since I regularly see more than 5 items in a 20 man raid and very rarely less than 5).

6 leather users with ~20% chance of useful drop (leather, rings, some trinkets, some weapons) = 1.2 drops per boss
3 plate users with ~12% chance of useful drop (rings, all trinkets, many weapons) = 0.36 drops per boss
4 mail users with ~8% chance of useful drop (rings, few trinkets, few weapons) = 0.28 drops per boss
6 cloth users with ~5% chance of useful drop (rings) = 0.3 drops per boss
your personal loot with ~21% chance of useful drop (21% is aiming low) = 0.21 drops per boss
Total of ~2.35 drops per boss

We'll say 10 bosses and that's 23.5. That qualifies as "dozens" from the original quote.

The 60 claim is high, but doable in a heroic boost because you can both get 30 players into the raid vs 20 as well as making it significantly easier to stack by armor type (with 10 bosses, all leather raid would average over 60) .

I think the more salient point might be that in retail you can probably get gear for almost every slot in a single run. Remember, there's only 15-16 slots and right now 2 of them are reserved (artifact necklace and legendary cloak). When I was Mythic raiding in Legion my guild was nice enough to carry my freshly dinged alt through heroic Antorus and by the end of the run I had gotten an item for all but one slot (bracers I think).
In classic this is significantly less likely because there's far less drops (and for some classes/specs, less USEFUL drops).

I don't take advice from someone who think 23.5 = dozens. And I certainly don't pay attention to someone who talks about heroic clears in an attempt to justify a silly claim, even if made by someone else.

[deenman]

I don't take advice from someone who think 23.5 = dozens. And I certainly don't pay attention to someone who talks about heroic clears in an attempt to justify a silly claim, even if made by someone else.

why wouldnt you talk about heroic clears?it is the nr 1 boosting service offered by a huge margin

[arkanon]

why wouldnt you talk about heroic clears?it is the nr 1 boosting service offered by a huge margin

Because its not comparable to the best gear in the game>? thats why. And i would argue M+ is much higher.

[ShmooDude]

I don't take advice from someone who think 23.5 = dozens. And I certainly don't pay attention to someone who talks about heroic clears in an attempt to justify a silly claim, even if made by someone else.

Seriously? Dozens is not a specific number. It only requires more than one so two dozen qualifies as "dozens."

You're the one who decided "let's break it down," I just continued on those lines. It's not my fault that you don't like the fact that I could prove his point.

You don't like heroic? Fine. The original quote was:

the top boosting services use armor stacking so in a 12 boss raid you can end up even with 60 items for one person

A 12 boss raid times at least 5 drops per person times 20 people equals 60+ drops on average. With a leather stacked raid and a little luck (higher than average drops, lucky on type of drops) it wouldn't be that hard to come away with 60 items. Rare? Yes, but reasonably attainable for a druid or monk.

You also failed to address my bolded point because you're unwilling to actually debate someone who was just continuing your line of thought. Who cares if the person got 20 items or 60, there's only 16 slots in the game (17 in classic). 8 armor, 4 accessories, 2 trinkets and 1-2 weapons. Chances of someone coming away with all slots except a few armor pieces and maybe a trinket is pretty good. The same can't be said for classic. Even coming away with 5 items in classic is only ~30% of the slots.

[arkanon]

Seriously? Dozens is not a specific number. It only requires more than one so two dozen qualifies as "dozens."

You're the one who decided "let's break it down," I just continued on those lines. It's not my fault that you don't like the fact that I could prove his point.

You don't like heroic? Fine. The original quote was: A 12 boss raid times at least 5 drops per person times 20 people equals 60+ drops on average. With a leather stacked raid and a little luck (higher than average drops, lucky on type of drops) it wouldn't be that hard to come away with 60 items. Rare? Yes, but reasonably attainable for a druid or monk.

You also failed to address my bolded point because you're unwilling to actually debate someone who was just continuing your line of thought. Who cares if the person got 20 items or 60, there's only 16 slots in the game (17 in classic). 8 armor, 4 accessories, 2 trinkets and 1-2 weapons. Chances of someone coming away with all slots except a few armor pieces and maybe a trinket is pretty good. The same can't be said for classic. Even coming away with 5 items in classic is only ~30% of the slots.

First off - 23 is not 2 dozen, so in no way is it "dozens". Secondly, you fail to address every single point raised, and the completely unrealistic scenario where people are selling 12/12 mythic clears with 100% stacked classes in a time frame where the loot is at all meaningful. And all continue to ignore the fact that you are both appealing to extremes.

You guys need to chat in PM or something and get consistent on loot numbers, because one of you say MIN 5 items per boss, and one says sometimes less.

[Ielenia]

6 leather users with ~20% chance of useful drop (leather, rings, some trinkets, some weapons) = 1.2 drops per boss
3 plate users with ~12% chance of useful drop (rings, all trinkets, many weapons) = 0.36 drops per boss
4 mail users with ~8% chance of useful drop (rings, few trinkets, few weapons) = 0.28 drops per boss
6 cloth users with ~5% chance of useful drop (rings) = 0.3 drops per boss
your personal loot with ~21% chance of useful drop (21% is aiming low) = 0.21 drops per boss
Total of ~2.35 drops per boss

We'll say 10 bosses and that's 23.5. That qualifies as "dozens" from the original quote.

Your math doesn't add up the way you think it does. First, since you used Demon Hunter, they're rather restricted in their weapon usage: daggers, warglaives, and 1H swords and 1H axes. That means:
• No 1H maces;
• No 2H maces;
• No 2H swords;
• No 2H axes;
• No shields;
• No off-hands;
• No staves;
• No bows;
• No guns;
• No crossbows;
• No polearms.

Second, you're adding up all the "chances" as if they're a certainty of drops, as you say that's "23.5 loot per raid". But it doesn't happen like that. That's not how probability works. It's not "guaranteed" loot. He could still come out of that paid run without a single piece of loot if:
• All plate wearers get plate, 2H weapons, 1H maces, polearms, shields and/or strength one-handed weapons;
• All mail wearers get mail, ranged weapons, shields, staves and or intellect one-handed weapons;
• All cloth wearers get cloth, staves, wands, off-hands and/or intellect 1h weapons.

And, last but not least, you're also assuming unique loot. It's also entirely possible that you get loot for a gear slot you already filled up. I mean, Vexiona and Fury of N'Zoth both can drop a chest piece. The Hivemind and Drest'agath both can drop gloves. And those are just two examples.

[chiddie]

Why on earth would I do that? Find your own gold farms, that suit your playstyle. My healer buddie got a farm that nets him around 50-100g/hour. My warrior friend (he's dps not tank though), farm jumpruns with randoms and reserve Thorium Nodes at the end for him self, nets him nice gold. He also sells tanking services for dungeons.

Find your way to make gold, and it really isn't that hard to get. Doing what EVERYONE else does however, isn't very lucrative.

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"plenty"
Lionheart, Edgemaster, Cloudkeeper, Corehound belt, some random +X spell dmg greens.. T1 pieces aren't BiS anymore, so those are dropping in price as we speak. What else do you have?
You will most likely never get Hand of Ragnaros or Thunderfury by buying tokens, unless you find a guild willing to sell the legendary material, and luck out on actually having it drop.

And if you suffer farming gold, I'd suggest you stop doing it. Why do something that makes you suffer in a videogame?

I farmed enough 15 years ago, thanks.

Lack of tokens is one of the reasons I won’t touch Classic even with gloves. My spare time is too precious to waste it farming gold.

Loving retail because when I need gold I buy a token from time to time and I can forget it, doing in game what I like more.

[ShmooDude]

First off - 23 is not 2 dozen, so in no way is it "dozens". Secondly, you fail to address every single point raised, and the completely unrealistic scenario where people are selling 12/12 mythic clears with 100% stacked classes in a time frame where the loot is at all meaningful. And all continue to ignore the fact that you are both appealing to extremes.

You guys need to chat in PM or something and get consistent on loot numbers, because one of you say MIN 5 items per boss, and one says sometimes less.

Fine, I'll give you the 60 is unrealistic in mythic, but I'd be willing to bet that he was talking about heroic when he used that 60 number anyhow.

23.5 was an AVERAGE. That means sometimes more, sometimes less. That'll occur a little less than half the time so it would be a common, but not guaranteed occurrence. They original quote said "can" not "will" so he's not saying everyone gets dozens of items, but many people do. Change the carry from a Demon Hunter to a Druid would probably get you the 36 you originally wanted for "dozens" since they can 'use' everything that's not cloth, mail, or plate.

As far as loot numbers, it's been a bit since I played but last I knew they had actually switched it to be far more deterministic (originally it was on a per player basis so you could theoretically end up with 20 items or 0 at the extreme ends, now it determines the amount of loot that will drop based on raid size). For Mythic that's 5 to 6 items, 5 guaranteed plus a chance at a 6th because personal loot generates more total items than the other (now depreciated) methods. I don't think they took that out but I could be wrong about that.

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Second, you're adding up all the "chances" as if they're a certainty of drops, as you say that's "23.5 loot per raid".

Those are averages, but I didn't do a clear job of indicating that (needed more ~'s). By going to extremes like you did, a buyer could also get most or even all items if non-leather wearers only got accessories, but that wasn't the point. The point was what could be expected in non-outlier cases. Perhaps an average of 23.5 is a bit high, but that probably just means the chance of getting 24 items on a DH would be more in the 20th percentile than the 45th. Still non-trivial. I did also only use 10 bosses when the current tier has 12.

And, last but not least, you're also assuming unique loot. It's also entirely possible that you get loot for a gear slot you already filled up.

That doesn't necessarily preclude them getting those items. Any of the runs I've participated in gave the buyer all appropriate items, duplicates included (mostly for ease since it's easier just to know to hand over any appropriate item automatically than having to ask if they need each item). When master looter was a thing, I've been in guilds that would give them all the items whether they could use them or not (again mostly for ease, ML would just loot everything to the buyer). I mean, by your definition, the most you could come out with would be ~18-20 or so items because there's only 16 slots (really 14 this tier since neck and cloak are locked) and you might get a few in the same slot for off spec or better statted duplicates. So yeah, by that specific definition, only really a druid could come out with "dozens" of items (since they can use all trinkets).

[arkanon]

Fine, I'll give you the 60 is unrealistic in mythic, but I'd be willing to bet that he was talking about heroic when he used that 60 number anyhow.

23.5 was an AVERAGE. That means sometimes more, sometimes less. That'll occur a little less than half the time so it would be a common, but not guaranteed occurrence. They original quote said "can" not "will" so he's not saying everyone gets dozens of items, but many people do. Change the carry from a Demon Hunter to a Druid would probably get you the 36 you originally wanted for "dozens" since they can 'use' everything that's not cloth, mail, or plate.

As far as loot numbers, it's been a bit since I played but last I knew they had actually switched it to be far more deterministic (originally it was on a per player basis so you could theoretically end up with 20 items or 0 at the extreme ends, now it determines the amount of loot that will drop based on raid size). For Mythic that's 5 to 6 items, 5 guaranteed plus a chance at a 6th because personal loot generates more total items than the other (now depreciated) methods. I don't think they took that out but I could be wrong about that.

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Those are averages, but I didn't do a clear job of indicating that (needed more ~'s). By going to extremes like you did, a buyer could also get most or even all items if non-leather wearers only got accessories, but that wasn't the point. The point was what could be expected in non-outlier cases. Perhaps an average of 23.5 is a bit high, but that probably just means the chance of getting 24 items on a DH would be more in the 20th percentile than the 45th. Still non-trivial. I did also only use 10 bosses when the current tier has 12.

That doesn't necessarily preclude them getting those items. Any of the runs I've participated in gave the buyer all appropriate items, duplicates included (mostly for ease since it's easier just to know to hand over any appropriate item automatically than having to ask if they need each item). When master looter was a thing, I've been in guilds that would give them all the items whether they could use them or not (again mostly for ease, ML would just loot everything to the buyer). I mean, by your definition, the most you could come out with would be ~18-20 or so items because there's only 16 slots (really 14 this tier since neck and cloak are locked) and you might get a few in the same slot for off spec or better statted duplicates. So yeah, by that specific definition, only really a druid could come out with "dozens" of items (since they can use all trinkets).

TLDR - you might get some loot, you might not. The dead give away is that you say the following:

"23.5 was an AVERAGE. That means sometimes more, sometimes less. That'll occur a little less than half the time so it would be a common, but not guaranteed occurrence. They original quote said "can" not "will" so he's not saying everyone gets dozens of items, but many people do"

Notice the issue here? Notice the bias? You completely ignore the fact that if 23.5 is the average, you jump straight to "not saying everyone gets dozens of items, but many people do" without acknowledging the flip side that "many people dont".

Like a lady in 1915 showing her ankles, you are showing far too much here.

Its now down from getting 60 upgrades per mythic run, to "you might get 23.5 items, some of which may be upgrades, some may not".

Im also amused that you think an average occurs "a little less than half the time", while again ignoring the possibility of getting 1-23.4 items.

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Fine, I'll give you the 60 is unrealistic in mythic, but I'd be willing to bet that he was talking about heroic when he used that 60 number anyhow.

"buying boosts in bfa can net you dozens of items in one mythic raid"

This is why if you want to interject, its important you read the discussion you are involving yourself in.

[Will]

lol. with the small but nice side effect that Blizz earns 7 Euros for every Token ever passed the AH, by doing nothing.

yeah, we are all surprised that Blizz introduce Token...

omg, you ppl are so naive...

Who gives a shit if blizzard get money from tokens. They're 100% optional. Nobody is forcing you to buy a token.

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the same happened years ago, when they introduced token in retail. and it will happen in china again. the same way. check it out. (sadly i do not speak chinese)

You really hate tokens don't you?

Never mind the fact they killed off half the gold farmer market when they were introduced.

I used to see gold sellers everywhere. Tokens made everything quiet.

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yes, i fully understand that this will promote more gold farming

Except it will have a net reduction on gold farmed.

This is because, logically, real players who want to farm gold for their subscription through virtue of a token, are still miniscule compared to the sheer amount of gold added to the economy by rows upon rows of computers in a Chinese gold farmer centre.

Wow tokens harm the market for illegal sellers, so they either pull out and look for more lucrative games to take their business, or they reduce their prices to compete with token (which blizzard dynamically tweaks in response to illegal gold prices if necessary) and therefore have to reduce the number of staff (farmers) to compensate.

I'm any case, cutting down the viability and therefore number of Chinese gold farmers far far far outweighs any inflation gained by spurring some players to grind more money to pay their subs. The proof is in the pudding.

[Big Thanks]

Who gives a shit if blizzard get money from tokens. They're 100% optional. Nobody is forcing you to buy a token.

The same way LFR and Flying is optional and i've always been against those things.

It gives you the ability to skip a major part of the game.
It ruins the classic experience.
Everyone chooses the path of least resistance.
Yes, even I would have to buy a token if it is implemented. Because someone who wouldnt would be diagnosed with stupidity.
Is easy money and saves a lot of hours.

[Niwes]

Well, no. Most people value their time, working one hour extra pays your sub (and some) in most countries, while farming however much a token will cost, will most likely take several hours.

Also, look at the Netherlands, almost no young ones use heroin now, because the government is literally giving Heroin to the old drug addicts and give them a place to sleep it off. Thus no old junkie needs to go out on the street to sell heroin to feed their addiction. The average age of heroin addicts is 52.
Legalizing drugs isn't as bad as some makes it sound.

But that's a whole other topic of discussion.

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Well of course Blizzard does stuff to earn money, that's why they made Classic aswell. They are a buisiness after all, making money is pretty much the main goal. They have bills to pay and salaries to give.

makin as much money as possible regardless what, ideally with idiots, yes, thats their business and they make billions with that. ohhh they have to pay salaries and bills.... but what should they just do with the other 10 billions ? omg... how stupid ppl are.

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You say this like its only a positive. I'm sure plenty of ppl would quit. Up to them if they think itll generate enough profit and low enough outrage. I'd personally quit.

just a math calculation. they look what they can get out with tokens and paid services, think about how many would leave therefore based on past descissions like that and how much they loose with that lost subs, and when the first profit is higher than the second, they do it. else not. imo.

[Ielenia]

Those are averages, but I didn't do a clear job of indicating that (needed more ~'s). By going to extremes like you did, a buyer could also get most or even all items if non-leather wearers only got accessories, but that wasn't the point. The point was what could be expected in non-outlier cases. Perhaps an average of 23.5 is a bit high, but that probably just means the chance of getting 24 items on a DH would be more in the 20th percentile than the 45th. Still non-trivial. I did also only use 10 bosses when the current tier has 12.

Except they're not averages, at all. Your numbers (24.5 loot per raid) are "best case scenario" because they assume each and every party member gets a piece of loot your character can use, from every single boss.

"Averages" would be an intermediary between "best case" and "worst case" scenario. And, before you say it: no, "23.5/2 so 11.75 is the average" is incorrect, because the chance for each party member to get a piece of loot your demon hunter can use is not 50%. For example, let's take a look at Mythic Maut: a cloth-wearing character has zero chances of getting a piece of loot that your demon hunter can use, and a plate-wearing character has one in three chances of dropping something you can use.

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Like a lady in 1915 showing her ankles, you are showing far too much here.

And now I'm reminded of Weird Al Yankovic's "Amish Paradise" music video. Thank you for that, I guess. >.>

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It gives you the ability to skip a major part of the game.

You don't skip any part of the game, much less any "major" parts.

It ruins the classic experience.

Have you played in the Chinese servers to know how the "classic experience" is for them, there?

Yes, even I would have to buy a token if it is implemented. Because someone who wouldnt would be diagnosed with stupidity.

"Luckily" for you, you can't and won't be able to buy tokens in classic WoW, unless you're in China, playing in chinese servers with a chinese client and paying in chinese money.

[stomination]

1. Probably just in China.

2. The only real way to get rid of illigal gold sellers. (And thus botters and account hackers (if that is even a thing in Classic? For sure was a huge problem in Vanilla))

3. Doesn't really harm anyone. Farming gold in Classic isn't exactly difficult. Most classes can do 60-100g/h farms.


Adding game tokens to the game was the best move Blizzard ever did.

Making it where I dont have to do number 3 means I wont really be on the game.

[Big Thanks]

You don't skip any part of the game, much less any "major" parts.

Farming gold is not a major part of classic? Could you elaborate and explain?
Ive been farming everyday...so what am i doing? Nothing? Imaginary content?

edit: Is it confirmed is just for china?

[MoanaLisa]

edit: Is it confirmed is just for china?

Despite the entirely misleading thread title the announcement was for China only. There has not been one single word from Blizzard U.S. that it's ever going to happen outside of China. There's a lot of jumping to conclusions going on here.

[enigma77]

No thank you.

Classic does not need retail's dirty pay to win feature.

[arkanon]

edit: Is it confirmed is just for china?

This is a frequent flaw in your logic, not just in this thread, but in most. It has been confirmed in china, and at this stage, there has been ZERO talk of it being released anywhere other than china. Now you want us to provide confirmation that it is only for china.....

It is not up to anyone to prove that it is not being released elsewhere, it is 100% up to you to provide any evidence that there has been any talk, let alone confirmation, from any official blizzard channel that they intend to release it elsewhere.

You frequently ask users to prove a negative, and although not always "impossible" like some claim, in most of your scenarios, it is - you are literally asking us to find proof something doesnt exist.

[Big Thanks]

This is a frequent flaw in your logic, not just in this thread, but in most. It has been confirmed in china, and at this stage, there has been ZERO talk of it being released anywhere other than china. Now you want us to provide confirmation that it is only for china.....

It is not up to anyone to prove that it is not being released elsewhere, it is 100% up to you to provide any evidence that there has been any talk, let alone confirmation, from any official blizzard channel that they intend to release it elsewhere.

You frequently ask users to prove a negative, and although not always "impossible" like some claim, in most of your scenarios, it is - you are literally asking us to find proof something doesnt exist.

Ok, then.

By your logic there is absolutely nothing to discuss in this thread.
Might aswell close it.

Since there is no use having a discussion about a possible scenario of the token being in EU & US.
Lets say nothing.