Why can't gear just be gear? Why all these shitty systems?

[vitor210]

"Worked for ages". Of course you don't remember growing "nothing to do" and "AFKing in capital" problem that reach it's peak during WoD. Now you don't even have to remember this, just watch what 60s usually do in Classic.

60s in classic that afk in capital probably:

a) haven't maxed out their rep needed for BiS gear, enchants, whatever

b) haven't even completed the entirety of their BiS gear list for that matter

c) haven't farmed the gold needed to buy enchants or consumables

d) haven't farmed the mats for consumables themselves

e) haven't pvp'd to increase their honor rank to get new and better gear

f) probably don't even have their epic mount yet, especially if they're warlocks or paladins

I'm not saying all of this is fun to do, but the fact is that 99% that afk in capital are the ones that are used to the LFG/LFR systems and expect to do stuff without putting any effort into it. Classic has undoubtedly, the more stuff to do than BfA, outside of instancing content

[Ghostile]

The community has been pretty vocal in their dislike of Titanforging since Legion.

And Titanforging+Sockets essentially is Infinite Progression.

The part of the community you see on forums is irrelevantly small. Not to mention how the people happy with things dont usually post about them

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not saying all of this is fun to do, but the fact is that 99% that afk in capital are the ones that are used to the LFG/LFR systems and expect to do stuff without putting any effort into it.

Wonder who the Capital afkers were on vanilla... Time travelers?

[ReVnX]

"Worked for ages". Of course you don't remember growing "nothing to do" and "AFKing in capital" problem that reach it's peak during WoD. Now you don't even have to remember this, just watch what 60s usually do in Classic.

It's okay to be done with the current tier, rest for a bit and try other games.

This game wasn't supposed to be a never ending rollercoaster

[Dracullus]

Classic has undoubtedly, the more stuff to do than BfA, outside of instancing content

This gave me solid 1 minute laugh.


"Undoubtedly" ;D

It's okay to be done with the current tier, rest for a bit and try other games.

This game wasn't supposed to be a never ending rollercoaster

Blizzard: "Ion, why so many people unsubbed? We released new raid just month ago"
Ion: "It's okay, they're just done. It's okay to be done, you know"
Blizzard *looking for replacement for Ion*

[MasterOfNone]

"Worked for ages". Of course you don't remember growing "nothing to do" and "AFKing in capital" problem that reach it's peak during WoD. Now you don't even have to remember this, just watch what 60s usually do in Classic.

and you think shitty gear system somehow fixed this?

[Dracullus]

and you think shitty gear system somehow fixed this?

These two problems? Yep. I don't hear anyone complain about "nothing to do", it's rather other way around.

[MasterOfNone]

These two problems? Yep. I don't hear anyone complain about "nothing to do", it's rather other way around.

wrong. you hear people bitching about the rng of the gear and still bitching about nothing to do.

[Dracullus]

wrong. you hear people bitching about the rng of the gear and still bitching about nothing to do.

Well, I know what I hear (rng? yes. grind? yes. too many systems? yes. nothing to do? no) and I can tell difference between expacs up to WoD and since Legion from my experience.

[Kralljin]

The part of the community you see on forums is irrelevantly small. Not to mention how the people happy with things dont usually post about them

First off, take the post i've replied to into consideration.
Second, if everybody was actually happy with Titanforging, they wouldn't have replaced it.

Lastly, the devs also aren't galaxy brains that see beyond the criticism of the average forum pleb.

Remember pruning?
Yeah, the one where they flat out admitted that it was an error and need to roll back on.

[ReVnX]

Blizzard: "Ion, why so many people unsubbed? We released new raid just month ago"
Ion: "It's okay, they're just done. It's okay to be done, you know"
Blizzard *looking for replacement for Ion*

They have to defend the cash grab, you should not. You, as the customer accepting this and paying, are the problem

[Deathpony]

I don't mind the systems, I mind the grind after your first toon.

BFA was the best expansion for alts until they introduced Essences, and then it became the worst expansion for them ever. Once again Blizzdev going from one extreme to the other.

Seriously, 60-90 days on each toon to grind out an essence?
Having to spend 2-3 days of 10 hours each time on one toon just to knock out all the stuff it needs to do? <-I mention this all the time in game to random people, and I get 100% agreement with the brutality of alt grinding.

- 3 NPC daily missions in Naz to grind the essence, Memory of Dreams (7/week)
- 3 sets of WQ's (2-3 week)
- Heroic Warfont (1/week)
- N'Zoth Invasions (2/week)
- N'Zoth Invasion Dailies (42/week) (just to rank up a cloak so you can grind more to rank it more - isn't this just upgrading gear from MoP 2.0 where Blizz said 'We're not going to do that anymore'... well BS you weren't! Here it is!)
- Mechagon Dailies to get spare parts for your essence mats (21/week)
- Mechagon Workshop grinding for mats on essence, Vision of Perfection rank 3 (??/week depends on low drop rate)
- M+ for the week
- Raids for the week
- PvP Dailies
- other sh*t I can't think of right now

It's like.. WTF man? I understand SOME of it, but the essence grind is redonkulous.

No no no no, you don't just gotta grind up the rep with factions again to unlock essences, you also gotta grind up these NPC's that'll take you 90 goddam days to do it.

Remember back during MoP when you got Exalted with a rep you could buy a BoA token that substantially increased your rep gains with factions in MoP that you could mail to your alts? That was a good idea.

Remember in Legion where the reputation tokens became BoA once you were exalted and could mail them to alts? That was a good idea.

Now in BFA we get Contracts that give you a measly 10 rep per WQ? That's NOT a good idea. It's actually terrible and comes off as an insult to your players, like the dev who came up with this was being a jerk off intentionally, and I say that because it's a jerk off f'n idea. 10 Rep. F*ck you!


All this because they turned raiding into an Esport, resulting in raid content (their big end game thing) now being so short livved. So now they need to saturate the game with timesinks/grinds out the wazoo to keep players engaged.

Can't go back now. No one is gonna watch a broadcast of a guild taking 3-6 months to down 1/3rd to 1/2 a raid. So this is the hole they are stuck in now.

We're phukt.

[MasterOfNone]

Well, I know what I hear (rng? yes. grind? yes. too many systems? yes. nothing to do? no) and I can tell difference between expacs up to WoD and since Legion from my experience.

the nothing to do is more of a bitch about people not having anything to do thats ENGAGING. islands,visions,grinding essences, and so forth are not engaging tasks. they are tedious and once done, people dont like doing them again.

[Dracullus]

the nothing to do is more of a bitch about people not having anything to do thats ENGAGING. islands,visions,grinding essences, and so forth are not engaging tasks. they are tedious and once done, people dont like doing them again.

Visions, mythic+, raids above LFR, pvp are not engaging content?

They have to defend the cash grab, you should not. You, as the customer accepting this and paying, are the problem

Yes, horrible problem that I can improve my character doing content I enjoy. The horror.

And I think fact that I'm not obsessed with geting BIS that would be relevant only 6 months helps a little.

[Ghostile]

I don't mind the systems, I mind the grind after your first toon.

BFA was the best expansion for alts until they introduced Essences, and then it became the worst expansion for them ever. Once again Blizzdev going from one extreme to the other.

Seriously, 60-90 days on each toon to grind out an essence?
Having to spend 2-3 days of 10 hours each time on one toon just to knock out all the stuff it needs to do? <-I mention this all the time in game to random people, and I get 100% agreement with the brutality of alt grinding.

- 3 NPC daily missions in Naz to grind the essence, Memory of Dreams (7/week)
- 3 sets of WQ's (2-3 week)
- Heroic Warfont (1/week)
- N'Zoth Invasions (2/week)
- N'Zoth Invasion Dailies (42/week) (just to rank up a cloak so you can grind more to rank it more - isn't this just upgrading gear from MoP 2.0 where Blizz said 'We're not going to do that anymore'... well BS you weren't! Here it is!)
- Mechagon Dailies to get spare parts for your essence mats (21/week)
- Mechagon Workshop grinding for mats on essence, Vision of Perfection rank 3 (??/week depends on low drop rate)
- M+ for the week
- Raids for the week
- PvP Dailies
- other sh*t I can't think of right now

It's like.. WTF man? I understand SOME of it, but the essence grind is redonkulous.

No no no no, you don't just gotta grind up the rep with factions again to unlock essences, you also gotta grind up these NPC's that'll take you 90 goddam days to do it.

Remember back during MoP when you got Exalted with a rep you could buy a BoA token that substantially increased your rep gains with factions in MoP that you could mail to your alts? That was a good idea.

Remember in Legion where the reputation tokens became BoA once you were exalted and could mail them to alts? That was a good idea.

Now in BFA we get Contracts that give you a measly 10 rep per WQ? That's NOT a good idea. It's actually terrible and comes off as an insult to your players, like the dev who came up with this was being a jerk off intentionally, and I say that because it's a jerk off f'n idea. 10 Rep. F*ck you!


All this because they turned raiding into an Esport, resulting in raid content (their big end game thing) now being so short livved. So now they need to saturate the game with timesinks/grinds out the wazoo to keep players engaged.

Can't go back now. No one is gonna watch a broadcast of a guild taking 3-6 months to down 1/3rd to 1/2 a raid. So this is the hole they are stuck in now.

We're phukt.

Are you including the nerf on requirements for the essences?

As for raids, if a few dozen guilds can get it done in a few weeks, it still leaves 99% of The guilds who cant

[Kyriani]

Personally, I despise the current design philosophy of an infinite gear treadmill (in the sense of things like titanforging/corruption/tertiary-socket procs). I like having an end point. I like being to say I'm "done" with gear until the next tier comes out. It's ok to have an end point IMO. I am not saying the devs shouldn't try and incentivize people to keep playing but I don't think gear chasing is the way to go about it.

While I am sure not everyone would appreciate this, I would rather the "after BiS incentives" be cosmetic things. I really like how FFXIV handles mount drops from 2.0 and beyond trials where you earn a currency each time you fight and if RNG doesn't favor you for the mount drop, you can eventually buy it with that currency. A concept like that (but for more than just mounts) seems like a better incentive that doesnt bloat item level or swing player performance wildly between the haves and have nots.

[Clozer]

Yes because that is exactly what I said. How did you even get this from my post ?

I enjoy progressing on multiple characters, and also maybe, just maybe, having a life beside the game.

Your point is moot since another MMO precisely allows me to do this.

yikes..

So you only want character progression that perfectly suits your needs? This is a big you problem.

Besides it seems you found your perfect mmo. Why don't you just play that instead of trying to change WoW to something that it is not?

[Rendark]

Take all of it away and you just end up with people who are frustrated again that they already have their BiS and there's nothing to do now.

And keeping it means you have people who are frustrated that they can't get BiS and it's never ending.

[HuxNeva]

Well the simple reason is because Blizzard listens to the community.

Players wanted gear with cool effects like in Vanilla.
Players wanted diverse systems that all can be a viable form of progression.
Players do not want to farm PvP to be optimal for PvE, or vice versa.

Solution= Infinite gearing systems where all gear can have interesting effects, and you can get said interesting effects without having to commit to a gamemode you do not enjoy.

Oddly enough BfA was the fist expansion where PvP felt compulsory for pure PvE players, and was most certainly one of the things that frustrated players that are not into that part of the game.

[Soon-TM]

"Worked for ages". Of course you don't remember growing "nothing to do" and "AFKing in capital" problem that reach it's peak during WoD. Now you don't even have to remember this, just watch what 60s usually do in Classic.

Not an issue with gear though. WoD in particular was going to be a !@#$show no matter how good the progression systems were, given that huge ass list of cut content.

And still, imagine getting to "complete" the game somehow, on a single toon at least. Horrifying, I know.

[Elias01]

WoD had a severe lack of endgame.

You don't get around a severe lack of endgame by making loot way more frustrating. That's just pseudo-gameplay rather than meaningful gameplay.

For example TBC had fixed gear and yet people seemed to feel engaged with plenty to do. That's because, instead of generating re-playability through shitty RNG-fest systems, they instead chose the far superior option of "let's keep adding meaningful content", which is why TBC had so many dungeons and raids of a high calibre.

On top of that, they had other ways to engage players. Much more useful professions. Grindier PvP. Slower leveling.

In essence, both examples are ways to keep players on the treadmill, but the former is cheap, shitty and unengaging, whereas the latter is actually fun.

TBC didnt had Mythic+, 4 difficulty levels for raid, welfare gear for absolute mindless tasks, no gear resets, no drastic catch up mechanics. If you want to go back to this model Blizzard would have to remove it all. There is way too many gear sources and game is way to easy to finish . Thats why new grindy power progression systems were implemetend.