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  1. #741
    Mechagnome
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    I just hope in Shadowlands BOEs are toned to normal difficulty or something and don't drop from heroic/mythic. I'm sure no top end raider loves having to watch the AH for some BoE, it's not fun at all.

    Corruption did make them much more powerful then they should've been and I suppose Blizzard has realised that now.

  2. #742
    WOW is already a P2W, it's really disappointing.

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    lol. you are absurd naive. really absurd. „profit is directly proportional to quality.“ lol are you kiddin me ? did you stopped in the 90s or what. you have NO CLUE, ZERO what you are talking about. not the fukin slightest. but blizz, me, my company and others are super happy that idiots like you pay us. lol. sorry, but this is soooo.... omg cheesus. rofl

    i really dont wanna be so salty here. but selling shit for gold is a tiiiiiny bit more effective. some companies simply do that (beneath other things) with smart packaging. apple was once very successful with that strategy. so, no offend, but you should REALLY talk with some actual marketing ppl, product managers and media designers. really. they tell you HOW you make money these days (formeost by always focusing good quarter numbers regardless what, i.e. blizz do this with apropriate patch releases, allied races, etc to keep quarter numbers always safe). and they will not use the word „quality“ for sure
    No, you are absurdly naive thinking you can create shit product and make a profit out of it. Like a kid who thinks making cheap copies or worse quality alternatives will bring you the same amount of money that original.

    Every single product that made tons of money was great, throughout entire humankind history there was never a single garbage that made someone very rich.

    It is absolutely amusing watching people with zero knowledge how product quality works.

    https://www.inc.com/magazine/201412/...to-profit.html

    As long as you cannot comprehend that customer trust is something that cannot be easily repaired once lost, we have nothing to talk about.
    Cheap cash grabs are going to make you less money in long run.

    And by the way BfA is for me the best expansion. At least since MoP so for me quality increased a lot.

  4. #744
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    No, you are absurdly naive thinking you can create shit product and make a profit out of it. Like a kid who thinks making cheap copies or worse quality alternatives will bring you the same amount of money that original.
    Exercise fads would like to have a word with you. The quality of a product does not always relate to how much it makes. Marketing, sales pitch etc can all impact how much an item sells even if it is a really bad product. Shake Weight made 40 million in 2010 but is ultimately a bad product since you know it doesn't really do what it claims.

    The problem isn't that bad products can or can not be profitable. It is that everyone is using subjective definitions for what is or is not a bad product. So BfA can be good to one and bad to another. Blizzard can never design a game that will please everyone even more so the midst of outrage culture.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Exercise fads would like to have a word with you. The quality of a product does not always relate to how much it makes. Marketing, sales pitch etc can all impact how much an item sells even if it is a really bad product. Shake Weight made 40 million in 2010 but is ultimately a bad product since you know it doesn't really do what it claims.

    The problem isn't that bad products can or can not be profitable. It is that everyone is using subjective definitions for what is or is not a bad product. So BfA can be good to one and bad to another. Blizzard can never design a game that will please everyone even more so the midst of outrage culture.
    While you think it may be a bad product, there will be people who think it is a good product. You are thinking about audience not product quality itself.

    Imagine if that shake weight was so shit quality it broke after 2 weeks for 90% of customers, would that make them same amount of money? Nope.

    Like WoW in general, you have people who hate it, and people who love it. Different target audiences. And my point still stands.

    No amount of marketing will save low quality duds.

    And for me biggest issue is actually with playerbase that have goldfish memory and cannot comprehend that WoW quality is actually increasing over time.

    Oh and by the way, you also used your definition of bad product on that shake weight (tho i did not even know of it's existence before), check bolded parts.
    Last edited by kaminaris; 2020-03-02 at 05:30 AM.

  6. #746
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    While you think it may be a bad product, there will be people who think it is a good product. You are thinking about audience not product quality itself.
    Bolding words doesn't serve any point. The shakeweight is a poor product if it doesn't do what it claims. There are also clothing stores like Foreever 21 that earned the motto wash and and toss because they didn't last. They were still popular for a time even though the company is now in bankruptcy. Marketing certainly can change duds. Like Head-on which rose to fame because of a viral commercial. I didn't use my definition of the product. I used the fact that it doesn't work to meet its claims like much of the fad fitness category of products. They don't rely on quality they rely on viral marketing and infomercials to sell the product and make a quick profit.

    You may want to brush up on your insults and derrgatory terms as well. Goldfish do not have short memories. https://thegoldfishtank.com/goldfish...d-memory-myth/

    "Customer trust" is irrelevant to video games. How many times have people hated on EA or other video game companies and yet they still sell a ton of products? Because at the end of the day it doesn't matter about cash grabs, trust, of quality. What matters is are people willing to pay to play. It is why low budget poor quality mobile games can still make more money then a AAA high quality game.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    I don't understand this line of reasoning. Are we now arguing sure it happens but at a rate it shouldnt bother anyone?
    Essentially, yes. If it's not bothering anyone is there an actual problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    It acts as a real road block to people who want to progress in mythic.
    No it doesn't. That's the whole point I am making. There is absolutely zero requirement for mythic progression to go out there and buy BoE epics off the AH. Furthermore even if one wanted to, there isn't even a requirement to buy tokens to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    Now you can argue semantics for pay to win
    No, I am not arguing the semantics of pay to win. I am arguing that one shouldn't attach a pejorative label to a feature unless there's an actual problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Karl View Post
    given that for most classes a good corruption roll is roughly a 7/53 chance on a uncommon proc it seems like a poor system.
    Until you actually play the game without resorting to buying ridiculously expensive BoE's and realise that you're doing just fine.

    The biggest issue here is people massively hyperbolising a need for something based on what is theoretically possible rather than what happens in practice. For example being paranoid that you're going to lose your raid spot to another player who is worse than you but willing to spend $2000 on tokens to buy BoE epics.

  8. #748
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    buying BoE’s has been a thing since
    Classic so if that’s your metric then the game has always been P2W.
    Typical to always compare back towards classic.

    You couldn't buy a WoW token back in Classic champ.

  9. #749
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    Typical to always compare back towards classic.

    You couldn't buy a WoW token back in Classic champ.
    but you could always easily buy gold. Heck, the wowtokens reason to exist is solely to have "legally" bought gold they make money with and less work with cracking down on goldbuyers. And the only reason this topic is at page 41 now, is because of the corruption mechanic and it being inherently unbalanced af which CAN be found on BoE
    It'd be exactly the same situation, people just would've bought the gold from their trusty source lvl 1 warrior "ghjsgjktjlaskz". Also, if no one buys a token, you literally cannot get ANY gold from it

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    but you could always easily buy gold. Heck, the wowtokens reason to exist is solely to have "legally" bought gold they make money with and less work with cracking down on goldbuyers. And the only reason this topic is at page 41 now, is because of the corruption mechanic and it being inherently unbalanced af which CAN be found on BoE
    It'd be exactly the same situation, people just would've bought the gold from their trusty source lvl 1 warrior "ghjsgjktjlaskz". Also, if no one buys a token, you literally cannot get ANY gold from it
    You couldn't LEGALLY buy gold. You always ran the risk of losing your entire account.

    Stop spouting bullshit.


    The game is the very definition of pay to win now.

    You can buy Mythic boss mounts now with real money. Mounts less than 5% of the playerbase used to have.

  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    You couldn't LEGALLY buy gold. You always ran the risk of losing your entire account.

    Stop spouting bullshit.


    The game is the very definition of pay to win now.

    You can buy Mythic boss mounts now with real money. Mounts less than 5% of the playerbase used to have.
    i never said you could legaly buy gold before. I said the reason for the wowtoken is to be able to buy gold legally, since it was only possible illegally before and was still done in massive numbers.

    If the game is pay2win, then please buy a world first or get to the top 0.5% of the pvp latter or whatever.
    The only things you can buy and "win" are things like specific mounts or very specific BoE items (since no one can guarantee you'll get a full equipment in a bought mythic run, drops are still rng)

    It was done in classic, it was done in bc, it is done now. It was never NOT done and is the same in ANY mmo.
    By that definition, the only games that aren't "pay2win" are singleplayer games without ANY dlc.

  12. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    i never said you could legaly buy gold before. I said the reason for the wowtoken is to be able to buy gold legally, since it was only possible illegally before and was still done in massive numbers.

    If the game is pay2win, then please buy a world first or get to the top 0.5% of the pvp latter or whatever.
    The only things you can buy and "win" are things like specific mounts or very specific BoE items (since no one can guarantee you'll get a full equipment in a bought mythic run, drops are still rng)

    It was done in classic, it was done in bc, it is done now. It was never NOT done and is the same in ANY mmo.
    By that definition, the only games that aren't "pay2win" are singleplayer games without ANY dlc.
    Agreed. If something is being bought from another player, it's an automatic disqualifier from being pay2win.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2020-03-02 at 10:43 AM.

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Agreed. If something is being bought from another player, it's an automatic disqualifier from pay2win.
    exactly. You don't buy ANY of that stuff from Blizzard. You buy from other players that are doing it on their own time with their own skill and ressources. Blizzard only tried to cash in on goldselling that would be happening anyways, with or without the token
    You don't buy achievements with gold, you pay other players to do them with you.
    You don't buy corruption items from blizzard, buy them from players that are willing to sell them (and they need to drop first)

    Pay2win games have shops that sell these things directly via money to the player. If you pay another player, then they have to be able to clear it and you're not guaranteed anything, since they can fail

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I agree that its general pros and cons have been done to death. However, the point I was making is that it's somewhat hypocritical to claim "just let people play how they want. What harm is there?" in an in-game reality where that very right to "play how you want" was denied to some players. A situation that was caused, at least in part, by outcry from a vocal minority who felt that they not only deserved to play how they wanted, but that everyone else should have to play the same way they desired.

    I don't believe that's worth dismissing out of hand on this topic.
    First of all, you don't have any data, whatsoever, that confirms your assumption that it was the "vocal minority" that wanted ML removed. Secondly, the problem with ML was that one or a small group of people, had the power to decide whether an individual was worthy of a reward which often resulted in a ridiculous power play and conflicts of interest.

    As I said, this subject is beaten to a pulp and we shouldn't waste any more bandwidth on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    You yourself have said that you haven't played in quite some time. Have you played since the introduction of M+? Are you aware of how it works? A person who is "bored" with M+ can just turn up the dials and get a new experience. A player who is geared enough to run a +15 has only one reason to run lower keys: Helping a friend or guildy.
    I've done M+, yes. It seems we have very different standards; turning up the dial doesn't result in a "new experience". It's the same instance, with the same enemies.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    This is not the case in 99% of the runs that are requesting two to three times the needed gear for a run. That level of entitlement and elitism is not caused by boredom. It's directly caused by wanting access to gear that they can not otherwise achieve on their own merits.
    99% of the runs? If we start pulling fake statistics from our bum, we might as well stop talking. Again, this is your hypothesis. You've already said it a few times, I just don't agree with you. You blame "elitism" or "entitlement" but what are you complaining about exactly? Do you think that people shouldn't be allowed to make demands on who they choose to play with? Do you feel left out of groups for the 'wrong' reasons?

    I think (hypothesis) that people just stop enjoying content after their fiftieth clear, regardless of the marginal changes in difficulty due to affixes and want to get in and get out as fast as possible and I don't blame them.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    But that's exactly what adding an EZ-mode to a game like Dark Souls would do.
    No, that's absolutely not what it would do. This isn't even up for discussion; it's a fact. Removing the normal difficulty would be "taking it away". Adding something, wouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    There would be a massive influx of players who would not understand the original value of the game. Yes, I realize this borders on elitism, because that's what it sounds like. But It would be like putting a robe on Michelangelo's "David" so that people who are offended by nudity would have an easier time viewing the art.
    No, it doesn't border on elitism, it is elitism plain and simple which is ironic, considering you're complaining about it in wow.

    If there would be a "massive influx" of players (which you don't know for a fact) that wouldn't understand the original value (subjective, but whatever) of the game, it shouldn't affect you and if it does, you need to look in the mirror ans ask yourself: Why do I care so much about how others experience anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    It's a business after all. But when it starts coming at the expense of what made the game good in the first place, there's a problem.
    Ah and that's the issue, isn't it? What made the game good, is subjective. The hardcore raider is what, between 2 and 4% of wow's player base? If you'd change the game based on what they think is good, wow would probably struggle to survive another year.

    I think it's quite safe to say that while wow might have lost its appeal to the vocal minority dwelling on mmo-c, it became more accissible to the masses. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

    The only correct answer is: It depends on who you ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    And now I often see people literally asking for P2W elements to be added to the game so they don't have to grind, or work, or deal with RNG.
    I know, those people kinda suck. But who cares? It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game.

    Remember the green fire warlock quest? I know people that paid others to do the fight for them. Ridiculous, right? That quest was one of the few actually epic experience is wow. But the fact that people were selling it didn't bother me at all for it didn't affect my experience of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Possible. But consider how many people would also take that easy way out if the option was available.
    Weak people, yes and again, who gives a flying fuck about what other people do if it doesn't affect you?

    Mate, stop being so preoccupied with how others choose to play their games.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    because that's what the game was meant to be! And if that option was available, the game would not have the same effect on its audience.
    Until it's not. And no, I'm part of Dark Souls' audience and the game wouldn't change in any way, shape or form for me.

    Do you even know how many glitches there were that allowed you to completely overpower basically every encounter? Or cheats and trainers? Did the fact that douchebags use those glitches and cheats to kill bosses affect you in any way? No, right? So why care?

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Then you would be incorrect. Doom was designed from the ground up with different difficulty settings. Dark Souls games were not. And they were not for a very specific reason. Doom is a power fantasy. You run through demons like a god of war. You are SUPPOSED to win. There is no consequence for being killed. Souls games are almost the complete opposite. You win despite your weakness. If you die, you are harshly punished.
    It doesn't matter wether it was designed with varibale difficulties from the ground up. In fact, Dark Souls does have difficulty options of sorts built into it in the class selection screen.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    And I think that's where I rest: WoW is not changing to be a better game. It's increasingly obvious, to me, that it's changing to be a better profit generator, further and further monetizing the remaining players that are still subscribed. But I don't view that as a good thing. Maybe it's necessary to keep the game alive in a modern market. I don't know. I just know that I dislike those elements immensely, and firmly believe the game would be more enjoyable for everyone without the pressure to monetize every aspect of it.
    I honestly couldn't give you a well formulated opinion on the question wether wow has become better or worse. I stopped enjoying it, true. But I don't know wether it's because the game has devolved or I outgrew it.

    Good chat as always, mate.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2020-03-02 at 11:14 AM.
    success comes in the form of technical solutions to problems, not appeals to our emotional side

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakzor View Post
    exactly. You don't buy ANY of that stuff from Blizzard. You buy from other players that are doing it on their own time with their own skill and ressources. Blizzard only tried to cash in on goldselling that would be happening anyways, with or without the token
    You don't buy achievements with gold, you pay other players to do them with you.
    You don't buy corruption items from blizzard, buy them from players that are willing to sell them (and they need to drop first)

    Pay2win games have shops that sell these things directly via money to the player. If you pay another player, then they have to be able to clear it and you're not guaranteed anything, since they can fail
    But, but, but, you can buy gold to buy the thing from the player. I'm sure that argument has already been floated out there.

  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I've done M+, yes. It seems we have very different standards; turning up the dial doesn't result in a "new experience". It's the same instance, with the same enemies.
    The same instance with the same enemies, but which act and react in different ways that cause you to change how you approach each encounter and boss differently. In many ways it's like a NG+ mode, which I believe was the intent. The appearance may be the same on the surface, but the encounters are sometimes VERY different.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    99% of the runs? If we start pulling fake statistics from our bum, we might as well stop talking. Again, this is your hypothesis. You've already said it a few times, I just don't agree with you. You blame "elitism" or "entitlement" but what are you complaining about exactly? Do you think that people shouldn't be allowed to make demands on who they choose to play with? Do you feel left out of groups for the 'wrong' reasons?

    I think (hypothesis) that people just stop enjoying content after their fiftieth clear, regardless of the marginal changes in difficulty due to affixes and want to get in and get out as fast as possible and I don't blame them.
    Careful now. You went from rightly calling me out for hyperbole, straight into making this personal by suggesting I'm feeling left out.

    I don't dispute that people should be able to form groups how they so choose. What I'm pointing out is that the reasons behind the steady increase in ridiculous requirements for those groups are being influenced by expectations of wanting loot without actually having to work for it. Something which is at the very heart of purchasing gold via the token!


    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    No, that's absolutely not what it would do. This isn't even up for discussion; it's a fact. Removing the normal difficulty would be "taking it away". Adding something, wouldn't.
    Including an easy setting for a game like Dark Souls has the effect of invalidating the very thing that makes the game what it is. We can swap out descriptors all day long. The "fact" is that Dark Souls would not be what it is without the difficulty barrier to overcome. It would be something VERY different from what set it apart as such an amazing series of games in the first place.

    But this is another tangent. We're not even debating wow anymore on this topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    No, it doesn't border on elitism, it is elitism plain and simple which is ironic, considering you're complaining about it in wow.

    If there would be a "massive influx" of players (which you don't know for a fact) that wouldn't understand the original value (subjective, but whatever) of the game, it shouldn't affect you and if it does, you need to look in the mirror ans ask yourself: Why do I care so much about how others experience anything?
    Because by attempting to create a product which appeals to everyone, it ends up appealing to no one. Or at best, only appeals to the lowest common denominator, resulting in an exceedingly bland and flavorless product.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Ah and that's the issue, isn't it? What made the game good, is subjective. The hardcore raider is what, between 2 and 4% of wow's player base? If you'd change the game based on what they think is good, wow would probably struggle to survive another year.

    I think it's quite safe to say that while wow might have lost its appeal to the vocal minority dwelling on mmo-c, it became more accissible to the masses. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
    Do not assume that I am an advocate for the hardcore raiding scene. When I used the phrase "what made the game good in the first place", I was referring to creativity, passion, innovation, and the like. Current day wow is overly formulaic, uncreative, bogged down with systems instead of content, and more or less afflicted by the thing Steve Jobs describes in his video about why companies sometimes fail.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NASGb5m8s


    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I know, those people kinda suck. But who cares? It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game.

    Remember the green fire warlock quest? I know people that paid others to do the fight for them. Ridiculous, right? That quest was one of the few actually epic experience is wow. But the fact that people were selling it didn't bother me at all for it didn't affect my experience of it.
    I think that what you're saying makes a lot of sense in the very limited scope of a single class-based quest chain. But when taken up to the scope of the fundamental aspect of the game, that EVERY character uses to progress(Gold and Gearing), can you really say that the results are the same? When the server economy is being warped by whales overpaying for everything? When groups increasingly ask for more and more rediculous requirements? When people withdraw from the public grouping system in favor of only playing with friends and guildies because they don't want to deal with these types of things?

    You say it doesn't effect you. But I say that it can and will, if left to fester like it has been over the past few expansions.


    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Weak people, yes and again, who gives a flying fuck about what other people do if it doesn't affect you?

    Mate, stop being so preoccupied with how others choose to play their games.
    Because WoW is a community game. MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER. As people are so fond of throwing in my face: It's not a solo experience.

    I'm done arguing this topic. We're going in circles anyway. You seem to want to believe that every man is an island, and that nothing anyone else does can possible effect the larger whole. I think you're outright wrong, and either can't or won't see it.

    Whatever, the game will continue to turn into a watered down pile of toxic mush at the rate it's going. And the games industry as a whole is following suit. It's going to get worse before it gets better. EA showed us that.

  17. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Essentially, yes. If it's not bothering anyone is there an actual problem?



    No it doesn't. That's the whole point I am making. There is absolutely zero requirement for mythic progression to go out there and buy BoE epics off the AH. Furthermore even if one wanted to, there isn't even a requirement to buy tokens to do so.



    No, I am not arguing the semantics of pay to win. I am arguing that one shouldn't attach a pejorative label to a feature unless there's an actual problem.



    Until you actually play the game without resorting to buying ridiculously expensive BoE's and realise that you're doing just fine.

    The biggest issue here is people massively hyperbolising a need for something based on what is theoretically possible rather than what happens in practice. For example being paranoid that you're going to lose your raid spot to another player who is worse than you but willing to spend $2000 on tokens to buy BoE epics.
    It's just it does act as a roadblock in mythic.. pvp to. A good corruption is worth more then a trinket slot. I'm using a 450 pvp item with my lowest being a 465 and 475s next to it and that 450 is worth more dps then any other piece...

    I find your hand waving away of that puzzling. I have to assume you don't raid past heroic or maybe a mythic 15.

  18. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Or you can just make a GOOD product, and trust that people will respond to it. The Witcher 3. God of War. Sekiro(yes I know Activision published it, but they didn't MAKE it). Your mistake is in believing the same thing that ATVI does: That you have to make ALL the money at the expense of everything else, including reputation and quality.
    Eve comes to mind. It is good? Well, it is still around so it must be making money. But it does not seem to have been the same level of success as WoW in terms of players and revenue.

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Bolding words doesn't serve any point. The shakeweight is a poor product if it doesn't do what it claims. There are also clothing stores like Foreever 21 that earned the motto wash and and toss because they didn't last. They were still popular for a time even though the company is now in bankruptcy. Marketing certainly can change duds. Like Head-on which rose to fame because of a viral commercial. I didn't use my definition of the product. I used the fact that it doesn't work to meet its claims like much of the fad fitness category of products. They don't rely on quality they rely on viral marketing and infomercials to sell the product and make a quick profit.

    You may want to brush up on your insults and derrgatory terms as well. Goldfish do not have short memories. https://thegoldfishtank.com/goldfish...d-memory-myth/

    "Customer trust" is irrelevant to video games. How many times have people hated on EA or other video game companies and yet they still sell a ton of products? Because at the end of the day it doesn't matter about cash grabs, trust, of quality. What matters is are people willing to pay to play. It is why low budget poor quality mobile games can still make more money then a AAA high quality game.
    And this is where you are wrong, any movement that uses your muscles burns calories. Efficiency however is another matter so you cannot say it doesn't work.
    So yes you used your definition of bad product. For me bad product is for example something that doesn't work at all or breaks fast.

    You want some examples? Lets go.

    Cheap power supplies that can destroy rest of your PCs - a lot of people say they are bad products, there is even a blacklist, however they are used in a lot of cheap setups and they can work in such environment because rest of PC is not power hungry enough.

    Cheap speakers This is prime example of how low quality can be good, people say they are bad because they produce low quality sound but they do work and it's not like they break.

    Cheap USB cables - are they bad products? They do work, however they wear faster than heavy duty ones. In my company we used tons of usb cables, average lifespan of 1$ cable is week at best. So for us, they are bad products not worth the price.

    IPL hair removal - for some people it simply doesn't work. Hard to say the exact percentage but you cannot say it doesn't work.


    and I am well aware goldfish doesn't have short memory, i just like that term.

    And you seems to be mistaking audiences. Just because some random dude on internet hates on EA doesn't mean other people hate on them as well. Vast majority of people only measure games as "is it fun? Am I having fun playing it?" and maybe "Was it worth the price?". I for one, don't care about microtransactions, loot boxes. I literally couldn't care less. And even when I deem game worth enough I pay for microtransactions.

    This is a good one (remove space beacuse for some reason forum removes the link)
    https://en. wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_notable_for_negative_reception#Final_Fantasy_XIV_(2010)

    Yoshida stated that they felt it was necessary to rebuild the game from the ground up to regain the trust that they lost from fans of the series for the original game, and not strictly as a business decision.
    Last edited by kaminaris; 2020-03-02 at 02:50 PM.

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    The same instance with the same enemies, but which act and react in different ways that cause you to change how you approach each encounter and boss differently. In many ways it's like a NG+ mode, which I believe was the intent. The appearance may be the same on the surface, but the encounters are sometimes VERY different.
    Very different? Well, again, we have very different standards. Instance X is instance X, wether there's random puddles of blood, volcanos, skittish mobs or a boss with more HP, it's still instance X. Superficial, variable difficulty discrepancies aren't equal to new content.

    But again, this is all subjective. If a change in affixes is enough for you to enjoy repeating the same content over and over, all power to you!
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Careful now. You went from rightly calling me out for hyperbole, straight into making this personal by suggesting I'm feeling left out.
    I didn't suggest anything; I asked.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I don't dispute that people should be able to form groups how they so choose. What I'm pointing out is that the reasons behind the steady increase in ridiculous requirements for those groups are being influenced by expectations of wanting loot without actually having to work for it. Something which is at the very heart of purchasing gold via the token!
    I don't agree with your point of view. They are - in fact - working for it; they're spending time to form a group that fullfils their requirements and they're actually clearing the content. Merely because they don't comply to your definition of "working for it", doesn't make their approach invalid.

    Again, you're worrying too much about how others play the game and your projecting your view of how the game "should be played" onto others. If you want to play a game in particular way, gopher it. Just don't attempt to force others into the same route.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Including an easy setting for a game like Dark Souls has the effect of invalidating the very thing that makes the game what it is. We can swap out descriptors all day long. The "fact" is that Dark Souls would not be what it is without the difficulty barrier to overcome.
    I disagree wholeheartedly. Dark Souls would be the exact same game to me, if there'd been an easy mode for it;.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Because by attempting to create a product which appeals to everyone, it ends up appealing to no one. Or at best, only appeals to the lowest common denominator, resulting in an exceedingly bland and flavorless product.
    Why are you assuming Blizzard or any other developer, wants to creat a product that appeals to everyone?

    I hate to break it to you, but the "lowest common denominator" is not who you think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I think that what you're saying makes a lot of sense in the very limited scope of a single class-based quest chain. But when taken up to the scope of the fundamental aspect of the game, that EVERY character uses to progress(Gold and Gearing), can you really say that the results are the same? When the server economy is being warped by whales overpaying for everything? When groups increasingly ask for more and more rediculous requirements? When people withdraw from the public grouping system in favor of only playing with friends and guildies because they don't want to deal with these types of things?

    You say it doesn't effect you. But I say that it can and will, if left to fester like it has been over the past few expansions.
    I think you're being overly dramatic again; most people don't buy 500 euro worth of gold, for a few auction house pieces of loot.

    People are not withdrawing from public grouping. If anything, people are grouping up more than ever thanks to the tools developers gave them to facilitate the logistic procedures.

    You're projecting your personal experiences and the way you interpret individual changes onto the game and its community. Not unlike people who kept shouting 'wow is dying' merely because they were gradually losing interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Because WoW is a community game. MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER. As people are so fond of throwing in my face: It's not a solo experience.
    Nonsense. Wow can be a solo experience if you want it to be.

    I strongly advise you to stop projecting your opinion on what games are or should be, onto others and find a game that's in line with your point of view, rather forcing one that isn't up your alley.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2020-03-02 at 03:07 PM.
    success comes in the form of technical solutions to problems, not appeals to our emotional side

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