WoW Token comming to Classic.

[arkanon]

Ok, then.

By your logic there is absolutely nothing to discuss in this thread.
Might aswell close it.

Since there is no use having a discussion about a possible scenario of the token being in EU & US.
Lets say nothing.

Yet another logical fallacy - absolutely nothing in my post suggests a conversation cannot take place. The discussion around "what if" is absolutely fine - but you are for some reason refusing to accept that the only information we have at this time is that it is being introduced into the Chinese version of the game - then want some "confirmation" that this is the case - that information is right in front of you - and as with multiple other threads, you refuse to accept what is right in front of your face.

You have a habit of replying to a post, without actually addressing anything at all in the post - instead preferring to deflect and shift the conversation into another direction without discussing the points raised.

[Big Thanks]

Yet another logical fallacy - absolutely nothing in my post suggests a conversation cannot take place. The discussion around "what if" is absolutely fine - but you are for some reason refusing to accept that the only information we have at this time is that it is being introduced into the Chinese version of the game - then want some "confirmation" that this is the case - that information is right in front of you - and as with multiple other threads, you refuse to accept what is right in front of your face.

You have a habit of replying to a post, without actually addressing anything at all in the post - instead preferring to deflect and shift the conversation into another direction without discussing the points raised.

Im completely lost with your posts.
My english is verrrrry poor and when i "discuss" i only know how to be on the offense. I dont know how to have a nice and little well put friendly post.

But by reading your post...are you saying there is confirmation? And that the information is "right in front of me"?
No.
There is no confirmation and the information is not right in front of me.

The information in front of me is "China = WOW Token"
Nothing else.

There is a 0% chance the token will come here? Just because is china?

[arkanon]

Im completely lost with your posts.
My english is verrrrry poor and when i "discuss" i only know how to be on the offense. I dont know how to have a nice and little well put friendly post.

But by reading your post...are you saying there is confirmation? And that the information is "right in front of me"?
No.
There is no confirmation and the information is not right in front of me.

The information in front of me is "China = WOW Token"
Nothing else.

There is a 0% chance the token will come here? Just because is china?

There is 100% proof that the token is being introduced in china. That is right in front of you.

There is 0% proof that the token is being introduced outside of china.

You are asking for proof that there is no evidence it is planned for release outside of china - something impossible to provide. You are then trying to argue that because we cannot provide said "evidence" that it very well might be introduced - this is a massive logical fallacy.

The burden of proof lies with you - you need to provide evidence or proof that it is planned to be released outside of china, otherwise the point is moot.

Let me try to simplify it - i am an alien - i am a higher being sent here to post on this forum - i am from a galaxy you have never heard of, and my iq would be measured in your units around 12,000,000. Unless you can prove i am not, it must be true?

[Big Thanks]

There is 100% proof that the token is being introduced in china. That is right in front of you.

There is 0% proof that the token is being introduced outside of china.

You are asking for proof that there is no evidence it is planned for release outside of china - something impossible to provide. You are then trying to argue that because we cannot provide said "evidence" that it very well might be introduced - this is a massive logical fallacy.

The burden of proof lies with you - you need to provide evidence or proof that it is planned to be released outside of china, otherwise the point is moot.

Let me try to simplify it - i am an alien - i am a higher being sent here to post on this forum - i am from a galaxy you have never heard of, and my iq would be measured in your units around 12,000,000. Unless you can prove i am not, it must be true?

But im just having a discussion in case Blizzard decides to implement it here.
Am i doing something wrong?

There is no evidence it will..but there is also no evidence it wont.

In fact...IMO, is extremely probable it will release here. Because is a huge opportunity for blizzard to make extra money.
And who doesnt like money?

[Noxina]

Legalize botting! Ppl are doing it anyway. Just like you can type /afk to go afk, they should introduce /bot. It auto queues you to AV and passively generates rep and honor. Ppl are doing it anyway, let's legitimize it.

Yeah, lets call a fish an orange while we're at it.

makin as much money as possible regardless what, ideally with idiots, yes, thats their business and they make billions with that. ohhh they have to pay salaries and bills.... but what should they just do with the other 10 billions ? omg... how stupid ppl are.

- - - Updated - - -

So I take you it you about nothing on how to run a company, explains a lot

[munkeyinorbit]

And you think that’s how it works when I fact you are mistaken. The one buy for game time has excess gold to spend, it is not being put on being spent so prices for stuff will not change for it. But since person 2 is selling it for the purpose of spending the gold, stuff now starts selling out faster and prices go up.

That's not how it works. You would need to have a lot of people doing it to have any material effect on the ah. Tokens didn't cause the increase in prices. The follower table did.

- - - Updated - - -

actually your argument proves otherwise. if Blizzard wanted to introduce the token into Classic, they would've done it at launch. if they are truly as money grabbing as people say, they would've done it at launch. but they didn't, because they have no plans to.

If you really believe that then I have a bridge to sell you.

It doesn't matter who the person is, wether it's an acti or a blizz exec, you can be 100 percent sure there is someone asking the question "how can we get more money from classic". They would've already pushed for the shop, transfers, character services and the token before release. Some money grubbing exec who's bonus is tied to revenue for classic has already asked "how much will it cost to make classic+" with the intention of turning it into a retail clone. The people who love wow, even though they can seem pretty incompetent at times, are saying "we can't do that, it will destroy classic". From a business point of view, tokens seem harmless but people would lose their shit. So for now, why not try a market that is more level headed?

People trusted blizzard to do #nochanges, which is best interpreted as once it's released, no more changes but here we are. Multiple game changes and a system change later...

[ShmooDude]

Notice the issue here? Notice the bias? You completely ignore the fact that if 23.5 is the average, you jump straight to "not saying everyone gets dozens of items, but many people do" without acknowledging the flip side that "many people dont".

"buying boosts in bfa can net you dozens of items in one mythic raid"

From the dictionary: "can" - used to indicate possibility

In other words, not guaranteed.

As far as the 60, going back it looks like he did use mythic when referring to it (I thought he hadn't and only done so with the dozens). I apologize for missing that. Based on that he was basically saying the boostee gets basically every single item that drops (12 bosses x 5 drops per boss) which does feel a little silly, I'll agree. I've had guilds that did it that way in the past, but that was under master loot for ease, and never done on mythic.

Except they're not averages, at all. Your numbers (24.5 loot per raid) are "best case scenario" because they assume each and every party member gets a piece of loot your character can use, from every single boss.

I don't think you're understanding where the numbers came from.

Each player in the raid has a slightly higher than 20% chance to get loot off a given boss (assuming personal loot still gives "extra" drops).

Thus 6 leather wearers times 20% chance of useful loot per leather wearer will produce an average of 1.2 drops per boss (in this particular case, I assumed that the unusable weapons from non-dh leather users would be canceled out by the personal loot extra drops). If I were assuming "each and every party member gets a piece of loot your character can use" then that number would be 6 would it not (one for each leather user)?

It's certainly possible that I overestimated things on the non-leather users as i was just guessing. They probably are high, at least in this tier because two of the accessories (neck/cloak which can be used by any spec) don't drop.

I also did assume duplicates would be handed over as that's always been the case in sales I've been involved in, but perhaps that's the exception and not the rule. But as I said, since there's only 16 slots (with 2 currently reserved), most of the time you'd come away with 20 or less under that restriction (since for the most part there's two drops per slot, maybe a bit more for weapons/trinkets depending on class/spec).

[Niwes]

Is this just a Blizzard thing that you have a hardon with..where they aren't allowed to make as much money as they can from "idiots" - or do you extend this to every corporation?

Like....you must be raging 24/7 against Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Asus, Coca cola, Aldi, Lidl, Nestle, Procter&Gamble and "insert any major and minor business in the world"...and that is even before you could go real deep and start foaming from your mouth against hedgefonds and other despicable shit. Companies that are into deforestation of the rain forest. How about weapon manufacturers? How about companies exporting and selling landmines that kill and mutilate ppl...

But yeah...Blizzard and the remote possibility that tokens might come to classic. Because...muh...this is a WoW forum so nothing else matters?

Also..pre-emptively...fuck your strawman arguments.

for me its a general thing, but depends on behaviour and company, and HOW they try to milk it and how hard they try.

example: there is nothing wrong with MS pushing Azure in front of your face every second tool you use, but nothing else. its another thing when google try to actively hide their private settings, use bad defaults and try to grab your data everywhere, because they make their money with pushing up ad values. i dont know how firm you are with the IT business, sw development, dev ops, etc. but Google i.e. completely piss on Android as a profit maker (the software itself, not the platform). They can kick it out the window and loose nearly nothing (with makin money with the sw licenses). this may sound strange to you bevause android is everywhere. but in reality this is not googles core business. makin money via ad rating is. so they developed and introduced android, what is original open source, and give it like a gift, nearly for free, to every hardware manufacterer, because they had to spread it as much as possible. its a platform for them, where they can upscale their ad revenues and rating by reaching such a giant user base and all their data. this is nothing conspiracy shit (just search the interwebz) or such. it is commonly known and thats just the business model of google.

why i tell you this ?

there is, for me, a difference in how you acting, whats your product, your values and your philosophy is. once, in the back old days, when blizz said „we try to make money with high quality by high investment“ i can respect that, even when they invest millions to make billions. but today the product is no longer in the foreground, the concepts changed (to cash grab systems, good quarter numbers instead long term investment, and other things) and the way HOW they make money, changed. the agresivity as well as the way they do it. and this is not my way.

so yes, you may be somewhat right in what you say. with other companies that i dont like and the way they behave, i just not use em or pay them. the problem with blizz is that i started using a product of them in a era where it was fine to me. i invested a lot of time in it and maybe do not wanna give up all my investments, even when the company today sucks. maybe i cant just not let it go, when i should. and that conflict produces anger that is posted here. and i am sure with this reasons i am not alone.

on the other side, i never comitted myself to cheap shit 15 years ago or 10 years ago. its like your company tell you how your work will look like and a few years later your work is shit. so imo its fine to be angry and go like „i never signed for THAT“. on the other way you just can leave your company (if you dont have to feed family and so on...).

so, yeah, idk. i think the truth is somewhere there in the middle.

and sorry, but i will not fuck my strawberry arguments. but thats ok. if you go out loud, you have to earn the echo.

[Ielenia]

I don't think you're understanding where the numbers came from.

Each player in the raid has a slightly higher than 20% chance to get loot off a given boss (assuming personal loot still gives "extra" drops).

Thus 6 leather wearers times 20% chance of useful loot per leather wearer will produce an average of 1.2 drops per boss (in this particular case, I assumed that the unusable weapons from non-dh leather users would be canceled out by the personal loot extra drops). If I were assuming "each and every party member gets a piece of loot your character can use" then that number would be 6 would it not (one for each leather user)?

It's certainly possible that I overestimated things on the non-leather users as i was just guessing. They probably are high, at least in this tier because two of the accessories (neck/cloak which can be used by any spec) don't drop.

I also did assume duplicates would be handed over as that's always been the case in sales I've been involved in, but perhaps that's the exception and not the rule. But as I said, since there's only 16 slots (with 2 currently reserved), most of the time you'd come away with 20 or less under that restriction (since for the most part there's two drops per slot, maybe a bit more for weapons/trinkets depending on class/spec).

That's not how percentages work. 6 chances of 20% does NOT equal 120%. What you're basically saying is that you have 100% chance of rolling a 6 on a six-sided dice if you throw six dice at the same time.

Oh, look: I just did that, and I got one 5, three 4, one 3, and one 2.

On top of that, saying "averages" is meaningless, since we're talking about a single run. People that buy runs usually don't keep "buying runs" every single week, over and over, for months on end, for those "averages" to actually apply.

[Mosotti]

There are tons of places where anyone can buy gold now, and I'm pretty sure most people who want to buy gold are already doing it. Opposing the WoW token is pretty silly, it will just move some of that money from random sellers to Blizzard... So this coming to western WoW would be in fact a GOOD THING.

[tikcol]

Is there a definition that p2w is inherently bad and if so....who "won" because of tokens?

Blizzard wins. People buying gold are the real losers.

[ellieg]

There are tons of places where anyone can buy gold now, and I'm pretty sure most people who want to buy gold are already doing it. Opposing the WoW token is pretty silly, it will just move some of that money from random sellers to Blizzard... So this coming to western WoW would be in fact a GOOD THING.

There are a ton of places where anyone can buy a bot now, and I'm pretty sure most people who want to buy a bot are already doing it. Opposing the wow bot token is pretty silly, it will just move some of the money from random sellers to blizzard...so this coming to western WoW would be in fact a GOOD THING.

[Raelbo]

Everything you just described is content. Your definition of content is things that are designed to give you something to do.

Walk around SW RPing? That's content. Blizzard designed SW to give you a place to express yourself and your fantasies?

Fishing? That's content. There's a leveling system and quests in there too. Allows you to level up your cooking if you want and provides a source of income.

Farming gold is content. Prepending the word meaningful is irrelevent. For most it is meaningful because it is content that is fine to reach a goal. Sometimes it's a mount. It can be other things too.

Well, there's content, and then there's meaningful content.

And while there's nothing wrong with enjoying meaningless content, there's no real harm in skipping it either.

[tikcol]

I don't give a shit about that. Barring the endless risk to your account and financial information, many of the people farming that gold are practically slaves. Forced to do it for 12+ hours at a time, often from stolen/compromised accounts, and even using people in chinese prisons.

And don't get me started on pieces of shit like Steve Bannon literally being a CEO of gold-farming operations.

So yeah, putting all of that ^ out of business is A-okay with me.

Time to start undressing and throwing your electronics in the trash. Because you know, that kind of labor isn't contained to WOoorld of Warcraft golds.

If you want to protest "slave labor", go all out. Don't stop at the convenient rationalization that let's you buy "clean" virtual gold.

[Twoddle]

And who doesnt like money?

It's one of the reasons where humans fucked up.

[ShmooDude]

That's not how percentages work. 6 chances of 20% does NOT equal 120%. What you're basically saying is that you have 100% chance of rolling a 6 on a six-sided dice if you throw six dice at the same time.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that 6 chances of a 20% success rate, run an infinite number of times, will result in 1.2 successes on average. Why is this relevant? Because the original quote is:

buying boosts in bfa can net you dozens of items in one mythic raid

"can" denotes possibility. From your example, I could say "you can roll a 6 on a 6 sided die." That's a true statement and is distinctly different from "you will roll a 6 on a 6 sided die."

Now, I could also say "you can roll 100 sixes in 100 rolls of a 6 sided die." Still true, technically, but astronomically rare. So much so that if you threw dice your whole life, you'd almost certainly never hit it. So I decided not to lean on just what was technically possible, but what was reasonably possible.

Let's take the statement "you can roll at least 17 sixes in 100 roles of a 6 sided die." Seems a lot more reasonable, but how do you support such a supposition? The odds of rolling a 6 on a 6 sided die are 1/6 which is ~16.7%. Over 100 rolls, on average, you would have 16.7 sixes. From there it's easy to estimate that you'll roll at least 17 sixes a little less than half the time, which to me is reasonably possible (ie not a statistical anomaly). That's all I did in my analysis, just there were more calculations involved because the odds were different depending on the raid makeup. Now, you can argue that my analysis is inaccurate because of the assumptions I used (since it would take an inordinate amount of time to gather the actual numbers) and I've already agreed to as much.

On top of that, saying "averages" is meaningless, since we're talking about a single run. People that buy runs usually don't keep "buying runs" every single week, over and over, for months on end, for those "averages" to actually apply.

This feels like a weird statement to me. The only thing you can say with any certainty about a single run is that you'll get at least 0 items and no more than the maximum number that could possibly drop. But what's the point of such a statement. That's why we deal with probabilities and averages and why they do have meaning. Maybe think of it less as a single person doing multiple runs than the multitudes of buyers that purchase a single run. That in all the people that have bought boosts in bfa, some of them have gotten dozens of items in a single mythic run.

[Ielenia]

No, I'm not. I'm saying that 6 chances of a 20% success rate, run an infinite number of times, will result in 1.2 successes on average. Why is this relevant? Because the original quote is:

Check your quote again. It says, specifically: ONE mythic raid. Can it? Yes. But it also can net you ZERO loot. In fact: it's much more likely for you to come out with ZERO loot than you are to come out with "dozens of items" from a BfA paid run. Notice how the post in question is very, very dishonest in their wording:

buying boosts in bfa can net you dozens of items in one mythic raid,in classic you are lucky if you get 2-3

The poster is acting as if it's commonplace for one to come out of a BfA's mythic raid paid run with "dozens of items", but turns around and says you have to be "lucky" to get 2-3 pieces in Classic from a paid run.

"can" denotes possibility. From your example, I could say "you can roll a 6 on a 6 sided die." That's a true statement and is distinctly different from "you will roll a 6 on a 6 sided die."

Now, I could also say "you can roll 100 sixes in 100 rolls of a 6 sided die." Still true, technically, but astronomically rare. So much so that if you threw dice your whole life, you'd almost certainly never hit it. So I decided not to lean on just what was technically possible, but what was reasonably possible.

Let's take the statement "you can roll at least 17 sixes in 100 roles of a 6 sided die." Seems a lot more reasonable, but how do you support such a supposition? The odds of rolling a 6 on a 6 sided die are 1/6 which is ~16.7%. Over 100 rolls, on average, you would have 16.7 sixes. From there it's easy to estimate that you'll roll at least 17 sixes a little less than half the time, which to me is reasonably possible (ie not a statistical anomaly). That's all I did in my analysis, just there were more calculations involved because the odds were different depending on the raid makeup. Now, you can argue that my analysis is inaccurate because of the assumptions I used (since it would take an inordinate amount of time to gather the actual numbers) and I've already agreed to as much.

And you know that? I believe that the chance you have to come out with "dozens of items" from a single mythic raid run (again, as evidenced by the post you quoted from), that means you need at least an average of two pieces of loot to drop per Mythic boss that your demon hunter can use (as per your example). Each mythic boss drops 4 pieces of loot. Can you imagine how lucky one must be to get that much loot from a single run, two pieces per boss on average?

[kamuimac]

It is kinda unbelievable to see so many people acting like the token is OK.

what is unbeliveble ?

that most of players are 30+ with succesfull jobs and families for whom 20-40 euro a month on gold is nothing ?

not everyone stayed in their parents basement playing 8 hours a day and living in fantasy world.

normal people log in - level up or raid and log out.

dont need selfservice in form of mindlessly farming mobs for gold.

[Ielenia]

It is kinda unbelievable to see so many people acting like the token is OK.

It is the absolute worst change possible for Classic WoW.

I agree. Thank goodness that is not happening, now, is it?

But hey, let's not see the big picture. Let's just narrow our mind into saying "I want gold that guy wants to sell gold what's the big deal?"

The bolded part is just FULL of delicious, delicious irony. Why don't you take your own advice, and "see the big picture" by reading the actual news about the WoW Token, and realize this is for China only.

[ShmooDude]

In fact: it's much more likely for you to come out with ZERO loot than you are to come out with "dozens of items" from a BfA paid run.

Going to boil the whole thing down to a Binomial probability calculated using https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

6 leather wearers out of 20 raiders = 30% chance of usable loot
12 bosses x 5 pieces of loot per boss = 60 pieces of loot (it's 5 pieces of loot for a mythic boss unless that's changed since 8.1)

P(X = 0) < 0.000001 (in other words, virtually impossible)
P(X >= 24) = 0.063 (6.3%)

The odds of usable loot should really be higher because of rings, trinkets, and usable weapons from the non-leather wearers (of course subtracting out unusable weapons from leather wearers too) is not insignificant. Raising that to even 40% chance gives greater than even odds at coming out with at least 24 items: P(X >= 24) = 0.55 (55%) Either way dozens beats out zero items. A lot of that comes from the fact that this last tier has 12 bosses as less lowers the odds drastically.

The poster is acting as if it's commonplace for one to come out of a BfA's mythic raid paid run with "dozens of items", but turns around and says you have to be "lucky" to get 2-3 pieces in Classic from a paid run.

Now, let's do the same thing with a Molten Core run in classic. Its 2 pieces of loot per boss right? Is there any exception to that? I don't raid in classic. We'll say Rogue since DH don't exist yet.

1/8 chance for it to be the right tier.
1/4 non-set leather
1/2 melee rings/neck/cape
1/2 usable weapon
Average it all up and I'll guess 30% chance of useful item.
10 bosses x 2 drops each = 20 drops

P(X >= 2) = 0.99 (99%)
P(X >= 3) = 0.96 (96%)

So your issue with the second part of the quote, that it's "lucky" to have 2-3 items is definitely correct. Just playing around with it you'd have better than even odds to get 6 items, so that's more comparable to the dozens number.