Vanilla-WotlK Talents or MoP-onward Talents?

[Big Thanks]

I forward the question, why are people so fixated on the old system or even the new one that we have. To me it's the same argument that retards present on these forums about how dailies are better than WQ (almost exactly the same thing). The new system is literally the old system with all the fluff points given to you for free, and now you only pick high impact talents. The only big difference between vanilla era and the modern era is that instead of 8 classes (7 for each faction) we basically have 36.

Do peoples dicks swell up at the thought of clicking the 5% hit talent or energy cost reduction of sinister strike?

Opinion:

If the old system was expanded upon and with the ability to be hybrid into the trees freely.
It would absolutely offer more freedom.

Because even +5% "stupid" talents...when picked a lot...create something different.

[arkanon]

Its not my fault icy veins doesnt give 2 craps about classic.

The main talents of current are either "PvP" or "not PvP".
And my point is that when you pick one of this talents it doesnt create an entire new playstyle.

Like Snake Eyes did before the nerf
Like Unbound chaos before the removal
Like Pistol Shot Burst before the nerf

The current talents are just like:
"You play Outlaw rogue like Blizzard intended you to play Outlaw rogue...BUT you can use a new, different ability if you so pick it"
Which is entirely different...from having an entire new "persona" in gameplay (like i like to call it)

So lets recap. You said each spec in BFA only has one option for pvp. You used IV as proof of this. I then link you the classic version of exact same page for the exact same class on the exact same website, and you instantly dismiss it because it does not fit your narrative.

You shot yourself in the foot, and refuse to acknowledge that you clearly have extremely limited knowledge when it comes to bfa talents, in particular when it comes to pvp (something you claim is your only interest)

I genuinely hope you use this is a learning experience and grow from it, because honestly, your claims have been thoroughly debunked at this point.

[Big Thanks]

I genuinely hope you use this is a learning experience and grow from it, because honestly, your claims have been thoroughly debunked at this point.

Only a retribution paladin believes if the Old Talents were improved upon, they wouldnt create insane builds and variation. More than today.

Because even the +5% "stupid" (or so you like to call them) talents...when put together and with many of them will end up with something crazy.

[TheRevenantHero]

At least in the MOP-onward talent system you won't make yourself utterly useless if you take the wrong talents. Whereas in the old talent system, you would gimp the hell out of yourself if you didn't take specific talents. I'll take our current system over the old one any day.

[Velerios]

The issue of Classic is that it IS better while leveling. But after this it's CRAP. No, i take MoP over the old system. But to be honest: I think we need both: a way for making the character better while leveling AND having a way to customize your endgame-progression. We need a way to progress our character horizontally AND vertically.

[Echeyakee]

Old talent trees had the advantage of offering more choice, in theory, but the actual variety was not that great and depended on the class. OP implies how many different rogue builds there are, but don't forget that you're comparing vanilla builds for a class to a modern rogue that has 3 rather distinctive playstyles, even if each one only has 2-3 builds that are marginally different. While you have more builds in vanilla, they are very similar in gameplay. And for classes like rogue or warrior gameplay between "specs" is largely the same, you just have 3-4 different cooldowns and a bit of passives.

And once you start looking at hybrid classes, the choice goes down a lot. I remember LK shadow priest, choices were not great, even with 2 expansions worth of extra talents. Or holy pala? You had 2 pve and 2 pvp builds: flash of light spam infinite mana pve or holy light big tank heals pve, and flash of light pvp or (the only actually distinct build out of 4) the protection spellpower from extra stamina on pvp gear holy light, i.e. the immovable cancer of 2v2s.

I do believe that distinct playstyles of each spec add much more to the game than any talents did pre cata. I do have my problems with current talent systems though. I think they should stop trying to offer comparable choices in each tier, and allow us to specialize better. Some of the holy priest talent tiers are a good example: you can pick rather low impact ripple, that does little on it's own, but adds up to a lot of healing in raids, or guardian angel, that has almost no use in raids, but is a game changer in dungeons. Or you trade the burst and coverage of halo for control, usability and dps focus of divine star.

This is how talents should be, not the oh so often present choice between passive, proc and active. Cause it's not really a choice, if they all do the same thing, just differently. That is when you look up the best talent and learn to live with it, at least 'til it gets nerfed and you have to switch. Fury warrior is an example of that: the only real choice you have is burstier aoe with bladestorm vs still bursty aoe of dragon roar, but with slightly better single target. Or shadow priest. The choice is literally do I want easier time multidotting or better damage on long living targets. In one tier. Just one.

As for pvp, I blame it on the unmitigated disaster that is pvp talent system. You only have 3 slots to balance your survivability, utility and often throughput options, with many features that were baseline before moved there as well. With a twist of most of the pvp talents being useless and never taken, because you have so few slots to fill. Assassination rogues come to mind. You pretty much need to take system shock, as it makes your amazing peel into godtier, while adding decent amount of damage to your burst. And you need smoke bomb, since it provides more utility in one spell than most classes have combined. But feel free to go nuts with the final slot...

So yeah, to summarize, I do think that cata system is better. Not because of the talent changes in mop, but because distinct specs brought more variety to classes, especially pure dps ones, than any old talents ever did. And if blizz ever gets their shit together and comes up with decent chocies, as well as fixing the pvp talent system, it can really truly be some interesting times.

[-aiko-]

Im trying my best to show you how i feel....

No, you're not. You're making things up, and ignoring the actual facts that people are showing you, because you aren't willing to accept that you're wrong.

You can hold the opinion that classic had a better talent tree. That is fine.
But it's false, as explained multiple times, in multiple different ways, by multiple different people, that there is only one PvP build in modern WoW. You're looking at a 'cookie cutter' build and trying to pretend it's the only thing people play, then handwaiving the fact that a cookie cutter build also exists in classic.

[Big Thanks]

No, you're not. You're making things up, and ignoring the actual facts that people are showing you, because you aren't willing to accept that you're wrong.

You can hold the opinion that classic had a better talent tree. That is fine.
But it's false, as explained multiple times, in multiple different ways, by multiple different people, that there is only one PvP build in modern WoW. You're looking at a 'cookie cutter' build and trying to pretend it's the only thing people play, then handwaiving the fact that a cookie cutter build also exists in classic.

Did you read my entire post?

Not interested in discussing with people who dont even read my posts, thank you. Have a nice day.

[Daymanmb]

Is this for high end m+ or mythic raiding? Because outside of that all talents are perfectly viable, and you have the freedom to play what you prefer. The difference between an optimal and sub optimal spec in BFA might be 5% - a not insignificant number in very high end content, but at lower levels, completely meaningless. In classic, the difference between what is optimal, and what is sub optimal might be 60%.

Sure, but classic talents dont have the luxery of a second spec, so some specs are more flexible for a variety of game play. Think druid or paladin.

- - - Updated - - -

But it's false

Its subjective. There is no right or wrong answer.

[Big Thanks]

Its subjective. There is no right or wrong answer.

Ofcourse is subjective.

For ME, i like to play "crazy specs" that play entirely differently than the cookie cutter one in PvP.

The old WotlK talent system, IF expanded upon would bring just that. It already did back then...
It would be INSANE nowadays if expanded upon.

I already gave examples of "builds" that play entirely different from the cookie cutter one in BfA:
Snake eyes, Unbound Chaos and Pistol Shot PvP rogue.

This are builds that made ME excited.
Because of how "different" they were.

ME, I dont feel different for picking Smoke Bomb or Disarm as a rogue.
For ME, the spec must feel entirely different and be "special" in some way.

[-aiko-]

Did you read my entire post?

Have you read ours?

Its subjective. There is no right or wrong answer.

Not really.

Opinion: Other PvP builds in modern WoW don't feel viable or fun or different to me.

Objectively false statement: There is only one PvP build in modern WoW.

All I'm asking for is some consistency.

[Daymanmb]

Not really.

Opinion: Other PvP builds in modern WoW don't feel viable or fun or different to me.

Objectively false statement: There is only one PvP build in modern WoW.

All I'm asking for is some consistency.

I actually have to apologize, I didnt read the exchange entirely.

I do think its important to note that with the old talent system, you were a class. In retail youre a spec.

[-aiko-]

Listen, dont move the goal posts. This is what you said. Thats subjective. Youre wrong. Deal with it.

Uhhh do you want to try reading the rest of that sentence, buddy?

But it's false, as explained multiple times, in multiple different ways, by multiple different people, that there is only one PvP build in modern WoW.

Not sure if you're being serious or not though, I don't have a good radar for that kind of thing.

[Daymanmb]

Uhhh do you want to try reading the rest of that sentence, buddy?


Not sure if you're being serious or not though, I don't have a good radar for that kind of thing.

Read above

[leggomydairy]

I get why MoP onward is grouped together, as MoP introduced the system we have today, but I would argue that the MoP talent system itself wasn’t bad DURING MOP - classes still felt like classes, talent system was balanced around 90 levels.

It was then a combination of Blizz refusing to update the system with the increase in levels each subsequent expansion along with pruning and focus on spec instead of class that ruined the system to what it is today.

I would say MoP w/ MoP class design and only in MoP, but I dislike the further “”editions”” of the system from later expansions that I would say I preferred Cata, even though I disliked how Cata they gave all specs one of the bottom talents from the old system at an early level for “spec identity”

[Big Thanks]

Not really.

Opinion: Other PvP builds in modern WoW don't feel viable or fun or different to me.

Yes, thats my opinion.
If i said something wrong previously, i apologise.

But thats exactly how i feel.

I am a "customization nerd", i felt "free" in wrath of the lich king, with a playground of talents to choose from...and glyphs...and gems...and items.
It was amazing for my weird fetish of playing crazy builds.

You cant be "crazy" currently.
If the old system was expanded upon it would be insane nowadays. A clown fiesta of hybrid builds.
Which is the dream for me.

Im on of those guys in League Of Legends who plays with weird stuff.
The best i can explain is...im a "roleplayer" in terms of PvP builds.
Thats the best i can explain.

[-aiko-]

I do think its important to note that with the old talent system, you were a class. In retail youre a spec.

All good, I know I can come off as snarky and mean during certain time periods that might occur on, say a monthly ish basis.

[Daymanmb]

Yes, thats my opinion.
If i said something wrong previously, i apologise.

But thats exactly how i feel.

I am a "customization nerd", i felt "free" in wrath of the lich king, with a playground of talents to choose from...and glyphs...and gems...and items.
It was amazing for my weird fetish of playing crazy builds.

You cant be "crazy" currently.
If the old system was expanded upon it would be insane nowadays. A clown fiesta of hybrid builds.
Which is the dream for me.

Im on of those guys in League Of Legends who plays with weird stuff.
The best i can explain is...im a "roleplayer" in terms of PvP builds.
Thats the best i can explain.

Customization used to be more about gearing options.
In classic, as a full 31 ret for example, with the right gear, I can still do well enough in raids to heal and it feels more aligned to class game play.
In retail, gear customization has shifted to talent customization and is more aligned with spec game play.
In retail, using Ret as an example again, it can play very differently from another ret, with a few talent swaps.
Ret in classic is ret. The only real difference is reck/ret or 31 ret, but even reck/ret is a gimmick and mostly a pvp spec.

[arkanon]

Only a retribution paladin believes if the Old Talents were improved upon, they wouldnt create insane builds and variation. More than today.

Because even the +5% "stupid" (or so you like to call them) talents...when put together and with many of them will end up with something crazy.

Im going to be honest here, i have absolute ZERO understanding of what you are trying to say. Could you try again? I dont mind replying, but i have no clue what im replying to.

[Nobleshield]

I like a sort of mix. I really liked the Cata talent trees as far as the abilities there; they felt good with variety but not a bunch of garbage filler talents like Vanilla or just too many like Wrath. I did NOT like that you were forced to pick a single spec and then stay in that tree until you had however many points in that tree before you could swap out.

However one thing to remember is that the community sort of brought the new style on themselves. The whole reason we got rid of trees and have abilities now is because everyone was only using the min-maxed "most optimal" talents anyways and anything else was laughed at/got you called a scrub/etc. So why have something when it serves no purpose at all? If they had kept the ability to sort of put talents where you wanted, and therefore come up with a build that fit your own playstyle without people ridiculing you for it, we wouldn't have likely had the new MoP and beyond style talent system.