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  1. #261
    The Lightbringer Twoddle's Avatar
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    What the fuck is a Mythic boss?

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    what is unbeliveble ?

    that most of players are 30+ with succesfull jobs and families for whom 20-40 euro a month on gold is nothing ?

    not everyone stayed in their parents basement playing 8 hours a day and living in fantasy world.

    normal people log in - level up or raid and log out.

    dont need selfservice in form of mindlessly farming mobs for gold.
    ye, the issue here is clearly the price tag. 20 euros omfg.

    Dude you understood literally nothing.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The bolded part is just FULL of delicious, delicious irony. Why don't you take your own advice, and "see the big picture" by reading the actual news about the WoW Token, and realize this is for China only.
    Who knows this is for china only?
    Mind giving us a source of Blizzard blue confirmation?

    Blizzard is radio silent on this, as far as i know.

  4. #264
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Who knows this is for china only?
    Mind giving us a source of Blizzard blue confirmation?

    Blizzard is radio silent on this, as far as i know.
    How about the fact that, so far, none of all the changes and additions to the game done for China only have been done to the rest of the world? For anyone with a modicum of desire to actually look out for facts instead of spreading "doom-and-gloom" and "WoW is dying!" would know that WoW operates differently in China than the rest of the world.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ShmooDude View Post
    Going to boil the whole thing down to a Binomial probability calculated using https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

    6 leather wearers out of 20 raiders = 30% chance of usable loot
    12 bosses x 5 pieces of loot per boss = 60 pieces of loot (it's 5 pieces of loot for a mythic boss unless that's changed since 8.1)

    P(X = 0) < 0.000001 (in other words, virtually impossible)
    P(X >= 24) = 0.063 (6.3%)

    The odds of usable loot should really be higher because of rings, trinkets, and usable weapons from the non-leather wearers (of course subtracting out unusable weapons from leather wearers too) is not insignificant. Raising that to even 40% chance gives greater than even odds at coming out with at least 24 items: P(X >= 24) = 0.55 (55%) Either way dozens beats out zero items. A lot of that comes from the fact that this last tier has 12 bosses as less lowers the odds drastically.
    The problem of "boiling down" is that it ignores important details. For example: it assumes that every single piece of loot those leather-wearers get will be useful to your demon hunter. But DHs cannot use staves and polearms that would normally drop for druids and monks, and cannot use maces and daggers that would normally drop for monks and rogues, which would skew the results of the first calculation up, and the results of the second calculation down.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    How about the fact that, so far, none of all the changes and additions to the game done for China only have been done to the rest of the world? For anyone with a modicum of desire to actually look out for facts instead of spreading "doom-and-gloom" and "WoW is dying!" would know that WoW operates differently in China than the rest of the world.
    But that is called an opinion? We dont know for a fact.
    Havent we seen chinese mounts come to the US and EU?

    Who knows?

  6. #266
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    There are a ton of places where anyone can buy a bot now, and I'm pretty sure most people who want to buy a bot are already doing it. Opposing the wow bot token is pretty silly, it will just move some of the money from random sellers to blizzard...so this coming to western WoW would be in fact a GOOD THING.
    Yes, because the insane inflation on Retail is exactly what we need to see in Classic which just pushes even more people to buy gold. So you end up in a situation where you still end up spending considerable amount of time farming just to buy basics, or feed Blizz real money just to buy things you used to be able to afford with minimal farming or just selling a few things on the AH.

    Furthermore, Blizz making more money doesn't equal them sinking more money into the game. The vast majority of the profits are just going to executive bonuses. It is true that the company needs money to survive, but giving them extra doesn't equate to them giving back more. When my projects make higher profits, I have never ever hired more people because of those profits...that is how corporations work. They will give you the bare minimum that they think earns them the most profit, and anything extra is just icing for them to slurp up for themselves.

    Sorry, but it isn't nearly the simple slam dunk that you think it is.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The problem of "boiling down" is that it ignores important details. For example: it assumes that every single piece of loot those leather-wearers get will be useful to your demon hunter. But DHs cannot use staves and polearms that would normally drop for druids and monks, and cannot use maces and daggers that would normally drop for monks and rogues, which would skew the results of the first calculation up, and the results of the second calculation down.
    The point of using the 30% number was NOT that every item from a leather wearer would be usable. It was that the odds of getting a non-usable item from the 6 leather wearers (weapons) is significantly less than getting a usable item from the 14 non-leather wearers (rings, melee/tank/generic trinkets, weapons). Thus it was a safe choice for a starting place. The actual odds have to be at least 30%.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Yes, because the insane inflation on Retail is exactly what we need to see in Classic which just pushes even more people to buy gold. So you end up in a situation where you still end up spending considerable amount of time farming just to buy basics, or feed Blizz real money just to buy things you used to be able to afford with minimal farming or just selling a few things on the AH.

    Furthermore, Blizz making more money doesn't equal them sinking more money into the game. The vast majority of the profits are just going to executive bonuses. It is true that the company needs money to survive, but giving them extra doesn't equate to them giving back more. When my projects make higher profits, I have never ever hired more people because of those profits...that is how corporations work. They will give you the bare minimum that they think earns them the most profit, and anything extra is just icing for them to slurp up for themselves.

    Sorry, but it isn't nearly the simple slam dunk that you think it is.
    I dont understand what you're getting at. I'm just poking fun at the guy by replacing gold token with bot token. "Things already happen, so legalize them" is a retarded argument and I'm just laughing at it.

  9. #269
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    But that is called an opinion? We dont know for a fact.
    Havent we seen chinese mounts come to the US and EU?

    Who knows?
    ... Are you really comparing cash shop mounts, which have absolutely zero impact on the game experience, to actual QoL features like the WoW Token? Are you honestly that dense, ignoring how games and game companies work differently in China?
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    ... Are you really comparing cash shop mounts, which have absolutely zero impact on the game experience, to actual QoL features like the WoW Token? Are you honestly that dense, ignoring how games and game companies work differently in China?
    Whats the problem of humoring the discussion of Blizzard possibly implementing the wow token here?
    Why cant we talk about it?

    Because you have the opinion that "it doesnt make sense"?

    Blizzard doesnt make sense for a long time.
    You are part of the "Source Patrol", always asking us for a "source" to our arguments.
    So i ask you:

    Ilenia...have a source?

  11. #271
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShmooDude View Post
    The point of using the 30% number was NOT that every item from a leather wearer would be usable. It was that the odds of getting a non-usable item from the 6 leather wearers (weapons) is significantly less than getting a usable item from the 14 non-leather wearers (rings, melee/tank/generic trinkets, weapons). Thus it was a safe choice for a starting place. The actual odds have to be at least 30%.
    But it's not. "6 out of 20" is straight-up 30%, which is why I said it ignores the possibilities of the other leather-based classes getting items the demon hunter cannot use. Maut, for example, has 5 items a monk can use... but only 3 that a DH can. That alone brings your number below 30%. And then... we have the issue of duplicates. Vexiona only has one item that leather-based classes can use. If the monk and druid get loot from that fight, it'll be the same, so that's one wasted drop.

    It's not 30%. It's quite below it, because, again, "boiling down" ignores many variables.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Whats the problem of humoring the discussion of Blizzard possibly implementing the wow token here?
    Why cant we talk about it?
    Because it just won't happen. A discussion like this serves no purpose other than fear-mongering and spreading misinformation.

    Because you have the opinion that "it doesnt make sense"?
    No, but because, all this "fear-mongering" about Blizzard bringing WoW Token to Classic WoW in the west is based on zero evidence.

    You are part of the "Source Patrol", always asking us for a "source" to our arguments.
    So i ask you:

    Ilenia...have a source?
    I'll look for a source after you first show up some evidence of Blizzard bringing features previously exclusive to China (like paying for the hour instead of per month) to the rest of the world.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But it's not. "6 out of 20" is straight-up 30%, which is why I said it ignores the possibilities of the other leather-based classes getting items the demon hunter cannot use. Maut, for example, has 5 items a monk can use... but only 3 that a DH can. That alone brings your number below 30%. And then... we have the issue of duplicates. Vexiona only has one item that leather-based classes can use. If the monk and druid get loot from that fight, it'll be the same, so that's one wasted drop.
    First, I am assuming duplicates ARE ALLOWED, I've said this multiple times and you keep ignoring it. I've already conceded (again, multiple times) that it is highly unlikely to reach 24 if you don't allow duplicates (there's only 30ish unique DH drops in the entire instance). However, since it has almost always been the case in all selling runs I have been in, I feel duplicates included are a reasonable assumption.

    Second, YOU are ignoring what I've said twice now. I'll break it even more.
    30% is the starting point
    -X% chance unusable items from the 6 leather wearers
    +Y% chance usable items from the 14 non-leather wearers(the part you've ignored twice now)

    Y > X

    Thus it is at least 30%.

  13. #273
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShmooDude View Post
    First, I am assuming duplicates ARE ALLOWED, I've said this multiple times and you keep ignoring it. I've already conceded (again, multiple times) that it is highly unlikely to reach 24 if you don't allow duplicates (there's only 30ish unique DH drops in the entire instance). However, since it has almost always been the case in all selling runs I have been in, I feel duplicates included are a reasonable assumption.

    Second, YOU are ignoring what I've said twice now. I'll break it even more.
    30% is the starting point
    -X% chance unusable items from the 6 leather wearers
    +Y% chance usable items from the 14 non-leather wearers(the part you've ignored twice now)

    Y > X

    Thus it is at least 30%.
    You're asserting that "Y is greater than X". How can you be so sure of that? Especially considering that Vexiona, Il'gynoth and Fury of N'Zoth have zero loot a DH could use from a non-leather class. That's a fourth of the bosses in the raid.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You're asserting that "Y is greater than X". How can you be so sure of that? Especially considering that Vexiona, Il'gynoth and Fury of N'Zoth have zero loot a DH could use from a non-leather class. That's a fourth of the bosses in the raid.
    But the converse of that is true as well, for those 3 bosses leather users can ensure only usable items drop. There is a healer trinket and a monk caster weapon, but those classes should be using non-caster loot for the booster anyhow to increase the odds of useful loot. All of the following assumes everyone is in the loot role most beneficial to the demon hunter (but not swapping specs on specific bosses to double up on trinkets cause people are lazy).

    There's 16 items of each armor type, 4 rings, 2 trinkets for each role and 3 generic trinkets. Plus weapons which vary by class and spec (2-4 weapons for a given loot spec).

    A Rogue in combat spec and a Monk in windwalker spec have only one unusable item, the 1h mace.
    A Druid in feral/guardian spec has two unusable, the agi staff and polearm.

    That's it. So 0-2 items unusable compared to 25-28 usable (0 to 28 for DH, 1 to 26 for Rogue/Monk, 2 to 25 for Druid)

    On the other hand, the non-leather wearers have 4 rings and 3 generic trinkets that they can all share. Plate users all can get the agi or the tank trinkets. Mail users can get the agi trinkets.

    So plate and mail users have 9-10 usable to 16-19 unusable. Cloth is 7 to 22.

    That means that the leather users have less unusable stuff than the non-leather users have usable stuff. On top of that, there's 14 non-leather users to the 6 leather users so there's more opportunities to roll the non-leather user's usable items.

    All that combined results in a Y that is significantly larger than X. That's why I included a probability using 40% in addition to the 30% one as I feel that's probably about where the real odds lie.

    Even assuming the specs with the worst odds by dropping the assumption the players choose roles beneficial for the demon hunter, Y is going to still be much larger than X. We'll say a resto druid for leather and mage for non-leather and go by boss (woo, tankless raid).
    useful/total
    Resto Druid 1/2 2/3 2/3 1/3 2/2 2/2 2/2 2/3 1/1 3/4 2/2 averages out to 71.5%
    Any Mage 1/2 1/2 1 2/5 1/3 and seven 0s averages out to 22.7%

    So 0.25 * 0.715 = 0.179 odds 5 resto druids generating a useful item
    plus 0.7 * 0.227 = 0.159
    plus 0.05 the demon hunter itself
    Gives us 38.8% odds that a dropped item will be usable on average. Thus a real raid would have an average higher than this. Based on that my 40% guess was probably a little conservative.

  15. #275
    Although it has been very enjoyable watching the math-magicians having a debate, a few factors have been continually ignored. For this perfect world scenario to exist, you require the following to be true:

    - On a realm that has a guild capable of not only clearing 12/12M, but doing it with 19 players.
    - That guild is on your faction
    - That guild has enough players to form a 19man raid with all leather, cloth, plate, or mail.
    - That every single one of those 19 characters has 100% mythic loot (cant trade if its an upgrade)

    Does this scenario occur? Yeah, for some, absolutely. Obviously very late in the picture cross realm might be opened, or might not, depending how many alliance guilds actually manage to 12/12M. I know last tier or the one before Blizzard gave in and simply opened it up eventually.

    By the time this perfect world scenario exists, the gear holds very little value, as it is very close to being replaced by either the next tier, or the next expansion. Another thing to note is that in retail, your ilvl is only one factor to consider when deciding if a player is capable of clearing certain content - There are multiple facets to building a strong character in Retail, not just gear. Even if you manage to get the gear, you would most likely lack a lot of the essences required to be competitive, and considering the skill cap is substantially higher on retail, even with all the bis gear and essences, if you dont have the ability to make the most out of it you will still perform poorly.

    Classic doesnt have this problem, once you have the gear, you are set - anyone can "master" a 1-2 button rotation and the "move slightly to the left" mechanics.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    - On a realm that has a guild capable of not only clearing 12/12M, but doing it with 19 players.
    - That guild is on your faction
    - That guild has enough players to form a 19man raid with all leather, cloth, plate, or mail.
    - That every single one of those 19 characters has 100% mythic loot (cant trade if its an upgrade)
    Points 1 and 2 are definitely true. It kind of makes me wonder how much of the player base has access to that. Even though probably less than 1/4 the servers have access to such a guild, 1/2 the playerbase (or maybe more, idk) might still have access to those sales because of the massive population differences. I know I was the last Mythic guild on my server two expansions ago and when we died from not being able to recruit, that was it. Even then we weren't good enough to "sell" full Mythic clears as we'd usually just finish towards the end of a patch cycle/expansion. Honestly, I'd say it was about time they just made it all one mega server. I mean with the exception of Guilds, the Auction House and Mythic raids it basically already is as almost all outdoor areas are already cross realm anyhow. Although that's a whole different discussion.

    ---

    A bit more on topic. I was wondering if anyone would try to use this to transfer money from live to classic. However, it's not even possible to do in China because their tokens aren't redeemable for Blizzard Balance (or any equivalent), only game time. But if it came to NA/EU, it could be possible, although I'd bet it'd have to be a very convoluted way.

  17. #277
    So when is the token coming to NA? Classic is far too grindy compared to retail. Seems like they just want to increase MAUs by all these grinds. Let me spend money blizzard!

  18. #278
    Herald of the Titans Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    The same way LFR and Flying is optional and i've always been against those things.

    It gives you the ability to skip a major part of the game.
    It ruins the classic experience.
    Everyone chooses the path of least resistance.
    Yes, even I would have to buy a token if it is implemented. Because someone who wouldnt would be diagnosed with stupidity.
    Is easy money and saves a lot of hours.
    You just don't get it do you? You simply don't. Let's address your reply:

    "It gives you the ability to skip a major part of the game."
    Not everyone enjoys farming gold, you know. And even then, by skip you're implying they're missing something special. If you enjoy grinding gold, you won't buy a token.

    "It ruins the classic experience."
    Classic is already totally different to vanilla, and hoping to get an identical experience is just foolish. I know gold sellers are part of the true Vanilla experience, but they're also a blight, and sticking to bad aspects for the sake of it is truly foolish.

    "Everyone chooses the path of least resistance. Yes, even I would have to buy a token if it is implemented. Because someone who wouldn't would be diagnosed with stupidity."
    This is just total BS and you know it. Even on Retail plenty of folk don't buy tokens and don't see it as worth the cost. Some don't even have the disposable income.
    Actually, most people I know preferred to pay their subscriptions by buying the tokens off the AH with in-game gold, which is quite the opposite to what you're suggesting. Does this make them stupid? No. Of course not. They're saving real money. So don't you dare insult people's intelligence just because they don't share your stupid viewpoint.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMYchanges View Post
    So when is the token coming to NA? Classic is far too grindy compared to retail. Seems like they just want to increase MAUs by all these grinds. Let me spend money blizzard!
    It isn't. You people are just assuming it is because hey, it's the norm these days to throw both arms in the air and proclaim the apocalypse.

  19. #279
    @Will

    Ill try to explain my point of view...
    You are supposed to suffer in classic.

    For me, the Classic Community is a masochistic-club who enjoys fighting adversity.
    There is a similar thing going on for Dark Souls and Sekiro (im not saying classic is similar to this games...plz dont quote this part with that argument. classic is not difficult...is just mostly "suffering with high points of fun when rewarded")
    We find enjoyment in suffering and harsh environments.

    Yes, farming is painful but is part of the experience and you are supposed to go through it in my opinion.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    You just don't get it do you? You simply don't. Let's address your reply:

    "It gives you the ability to skip a major part of the game."
    Not everyone enjoys farming gold, you know. And even then, by skip you're implying they're missing something special. If you enjoy grinding gold, you won't buy a token.

    "It ruins the classic experience."
    Classic is already totally different to vanilla, and hoping to get an identical experience is just foolish. I know gold sellers are part of the true Vanilla experience, but they're also a blight, and sticking to bad aspects for the sake of it is truly foolish.

    "Everyone chooses the path of least resistance. Yes, even I would have to buy a token if it is implemented. Because someone who wouldn't would be diagnosed with stupidity."
    This is just total BS and you know it. Even on Retail plenty of folk don't buy tokens and don't see it as worth the cost. Some don't even have the disposable income.
    Actually, most people I know preferred to pay their subscriptions by buying the tokens off the AH with in-game gold, which is quite the opposite to what you're suggesting. Does this make them stupid? No. Of course not. They're saving real money. So don't you dare insult people's intelligence just because they don't share your stupid viewpoint.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It isn't. You people are just assuming it is because hey, it's the norm these days to throw both arms in the air and proclaim the apocalypse.
    There is no classic experience. 1.12 is not fucking classic, all of the fun shit that made classic what it was is gone by then. All you're running is tuned content that already was done into the ground. All that's left is the experience of filling slots with less tools.

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