Russia Interference in the 2020 Election

[Spectral]

I understand that the nuance may have escaped you, but a candidate openly and legally spending money on his campaign is how American democracy works; in contrast, a hostile foreign power covertly and illegally buying targeted ads (that are targeted using campaign strategy data that is, on the one hand, stolen, and on the other was given to them by conspirators affiliated with the campaign of their favored (Republican) candidate), covertly and illegally donating to Republican politicians, funding and influencing pro-Republican PACs, stealing emails and releasing them for maximum impact on the Democrats (and holding onto them for leverage on the Republicans) is rather the antithesis of Western democracy (and falsely equating the two, either willfully or witlessly, is to act as as an agent working in favor of an oppressive resource-extraction driven criminal oligolopic axis and against the interests of democracy, freedom, and civilization (Western democracy, especially the American brand, is deeply flawed, but it remains both correctable and far, far better than the alternatives offered by Russan, Saudi, or PRC autocrats - anyone who thinks otherwise should try living in those nations for a few years as an average citizen)).

My bad, nothing says "democracy, freedom, and civilization" quite like a cartoon villain with $50 billion spreading divisive propaganda across the country. Nothing to worry about there, the real threat is those dastardly Russians and their handful of Facebook ads.

[zenkai]

At this point it's beyond parody. Bloomberg spends half a billion trying to buy an election with every form of online and television propaganda possible and the general media response is, "wow, look at that clever Mikey strategy, how novel!". Russia drops a few hundred grand on Twitter and Facebook shitposting and we've got a national crisis on our hands.

LOL good point.

[Edge-]

LOL good point.

What point? That domestic citizens running for president can spend on national elections, and it's alright if foreign countries/governments do so just as long as they spend less?

I don't see a point here beyond, "We have no problem with foreign interference in our elections", which you seem to support.

Which...isn't a particularly strong position to take.

[Xarkan]

My bad, nothing says "democracy, freedom, and civilization" quite like a cartoon villain with $50 billion spreading divisive propaganda across the country. Nothing to worry about there, the real threat is those dastardly Russians and their handful of Facebook ads.

Well if the candidate spends his own money then he has not been bought at least..

[draynay]

Well if the candidate spends his own money then he has not been bought at least..

He's going to want to make that money back...

[Xarkan]

He's going to want to make that money back...

He will probably spend the same or more on Biden.. with any luck with the same lack of result.

The point however is that not insignicant amounts of money get donated to other candidates campaigns and those donating them expect something in return.

[zenkai]

What point? That domestic citizens running for president can spend on national elections, and it's alright if foreign countries/governments do so just as long as they spend less?

I don't see a point here beyond, "We have no problem with foreign interference in our elections", which you seem to support.

Which...isn't a particularly strong position to take.

Why don't you reply to the person I agreed with, it was their point.

[Edge-]

Why don't you reply to the person I agreed with, it was their point.

Does it matter which of you I replied to? You both share the same view, your post was just the most recent in the thread.

Did you want to respond to my post? Or just whine that I responded to you and not someone else?

[zenkai]

Does it matter which of you I replied to? You both share the same view, your post was just the most recent in the thread.

Did you want to respond to my post? Or just whine that I responded to you and not someone else?

Just helping you out, I hardly ever read the replies you send at me, and you didn't even bother tagging him.

[Spectral]

What point? That domestic citizens running for president can spend on national elections, and it's alright if foreign countries/governments do so just as long as they spend less?

I don't see a point here beyond, "We have no problem with foreign interference in our elections", which you seem to support.

Which...isn't a particularly strong position to take.

The core point is that it's positively ridiculous to be deeply concerned about spending that's three or four orders of magnitude lower simply because the people doing the advertising don't hail from the United States. Advertising probably has some effect, but the notion that Russian memes are some sort of black magic wizardry that's uniquely corrosive doesn't have any relationship with reality - it's a post hoc rationalization pushed by a combination of people that can't believe they lost to Trump and the usual spy agencies that would love a basis to further increase their spending above the current tens of billions.

[Edge-]

The core point is that it's positively ridiculous to be deeply concerned about spending that's three or four orders of magnitude lower simply because the people doing the advertising don't hail from the United States.

Are you being serious here? Foreign nations shouldn't meddle in elections, period. Even the US, and I know the US is very guilty of this. And it's also expressly illegal for them to do so.

There is no analogue for domestic spending like this unless it runs afowl of FEC guidelines, which Bloomberg doesn't because he's running his own campaign and can spend as much of his own money as he wants.

You're equating the two when they're in no way, shape, or form remotely equitable.

If you wanted to start a discussion on the corrupting influence of money on campaigns and our political system then you'd have a super salient point. But as is you're functionally arguing that domestic and foreign spending on campaigns are the same problem, when they're not at all.

Advertising probably has some effect, but the notion that Russian memes are some sort of black magic wizardry that's uniquely corrosive doesn't have any relationship with reality

Because they're done with different goals.

Bloomberg is spending to boost his campaign (well, he was until today) and harm Trump.
Russians are spending to boost Trump (illegally) and sew discord within the US as their primary goal.

Because yes, it had an effect -

https://www.axios.com/russia-interfe...262880e16.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...lection_result

It's difficult to quantify, but there's plenty of evidence that the Russian social media campaigns impacted outcomes.

[Crispin]

The core point is that it's positively ridiculous to be deeply concerned about spending that's three or four orders of magnitude lower simply because the people doing the advertising don't hail from the United States. Advertising probably has some effect, but the notion that Russian memes are some sort of black magic wizardry that's uniquely corrosive doesn't have any relationship with reality - it's a post hoc rationalization pushed by a combination of people that can't believe they lost to Trump and the usual spy agencies that would love a basis to further increase their spending above the current tens of billions.

You should be concerned, when a foreign power runs a divide and conquer mindset, aimed at your country. It's not new that getting elected in the US requires far more money than what it should do.

- - - Updated - - -

"whataboutism" is not a buzzword you can throw around that magically dismisses any argument you disagree with. In this case I'm demonstrating blatant hypocrisy. When you try to pain US as some kind of victim, while US is doing (and has been doing for decades) same shit but on much higher scale, it is not whataboutism to point that out.

US is the problem here, not Russia and not any other country (don't see Americans whining about Israel spending millions on influencing US politicians). Deal with your side of problem before pointing at others.

So Americans should just take it, as long as they do it themselves? That's a pretty weak argument tbh. I'm sure you're capable of figuring out why, yourself.

[wunksta]

(don't see Americans whining about Israel spending millions on influencing US politicians).

You're not paying attention then.
https://qz.com/1547435/the-numbers-b...s-aipac-tweet/

[JohnBrown1917]

That's a pointless whataboutism. If intervention is wrong, then it's wrong, period.

Its not if the people who complain about Russia have no problem with all the interventions the US does/backs.

[Crispin]

Its not a weak argument. Just because you say it is, doesn't make it so.

Americans shouldn't complain about other countries when US is doing the same and is doing it on much bigger scale. US is not a special country that can do whatever it wants, while vilifying other countries for doing the same.

Behave towards other countries like you want those countries to behave towards you. Until US understands that and start acting like that, US has no moral ground in any argument.

It is a weak argument, just because you say it isnt, doesn't make it so. (see what I did there)

Americans got every right to be pissed about foreign meddling, as do any other country in the world. This "you do it too!" is not how politics work unless you're 9 years old.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here. That I'm right? Israel spent magnitude more than Russia, but whining about Russia is magnitude higher than whining about Israel? Do you see threats of sanctions against Israel?

You wrote

(don't see Americans whining about Israel spending millions on influencing US politicians)

Clearly you're wrong, moving goalposts doesn't change that.

[wunksta]

Israel spent magnitude more than Russia, but whining about Russia is magnitude higher than whining about Israel? Do you see threats of sanctions against Israel?

Americans have been complaining about Israeli lobbyists, but this is legal funding that comes directly from people in America and not outside governments. Furthermore, Israel is an ally. The goals of Russian interference is to undermine America.

There's plenty of room for criticism of political financing and of how America influences the politics other nations, but don't get hyperbolic. It only causes confusion.

[ringpriest]

The core point is that it's positively ridiculous to be deeply concerned about spending that's three or four orders of magnitude lower simply because the people doing the advertising don't hail from the United States. Advertising probably has some effect, but the notion that Russian memes are some sort of black magic wizardry that's uniquely corrosive doesn't have any relationship with reality - it's a post hoc rationalization pushed by a combination of people that can't believe they lost to Trump and the usual spy agencies that would love a basis to further increase their spending above the current tens of billions.

The way Spectral minimizes illegal Russian pro-Trump involvement in the 2016 election is either disingenuous to the point of rank dishonesty or a deliberate (and malicious) pretense of ignorance: Russian government operatives stole not just email, but Clinton campaign election modeling data (the Trump campaign quietly and voluntarily handed over their own modeling data to their Russian benefactors), stolen emails and other stolen and edited material was timed for maximum pro-Trump impact (the first release of emails and excerpts of previously-private Clinton speeches was less than an hour after the Access Hollywood "Pussygrabber" tape broke), Russian targeted messaging (not just "advertising" but false posts on Facebook and Twitter) reached at least 126 million American voters. The net impact was decisive - America regularly executes people on less conclusive evidence.

[Levelfive]

The way Spectral minimizes illegal Russian pro-Trump involvement in the 2016 election is either disingenuous to the point of rank dishonesty or a deliberate (and malicious) pretense of ignorance: Russian government operatives stole not just email, but Clinton campaign election modeling data (the Trump campaign quietly and voluntarily handed over their own modeling data to their Russian benefactors), stolen emails and other stolen and edited material was timed for maximum pro-Trump impact (the first release of emails and excerpts of previously-private Clinton speeches was less than an hour after the Access Hollywood "Pussygrabber" tape broke), Russian targeted messaging (not just "advertising" but false posts on Facebook and Twitter) reached at least 126 million American voters. The net impact was decisive - America regularly executes people on less conclusive evidence.

Yeah, that seems to be his jam, the same way the IRA alone spending $1.25 million a month on social media campaigns in the run up to the election is reduced to "a handful of facebook ads." It's weird.

[Spectral]

The way Spectral minimizes illegal Russian pro-Trump involvement in the 2016 election is either disingenuous to the point of rank dishonesty or a deliberate (and malicious) pretense of ignorance: Russian government operatives stole not just email, but Clinton campaign election modeling data (the Trump campaign quietly and voluntarily handed over their own modeling data to their Russian benefactors), stolen emails and other stolen and edited material was timed for maximum pro-Trump impact (the first release of emails and excerpts of previously-private Clinton speeches was less than an hour after the Access Hollywood "Pussygrabber" tape broke), Russian targeted messaging (not just "advertising" but false posts on Facebook and Twitter) reached at least 126 million American voters. The net impact was decisive - America regularly executes people on less conclusive evidence.

My God, not just Facebook ads, but Facebook messages. They can't keep getting away with this!

[Orbitus]

My God, not just Facebook ads, but Facebook messages. They can't keep getting away with this!

Just wait til it happens against your party, guarantee you will be crying about the illegality then.