Is there any chance we could do away with the timer in M+? Alot of us don't like it.

[Kolvarg]

Just write an addon that obfuscates the timer, then create a safe space ingame community to bring everyone that gets spooked by a timer and run keys together no pressure.

Not really a "safe space" when you still actively get punished for not completing the timer (key gets downgraded)

[Sansnom]

if your group cannot complete a key in time, the content is too difficult for you and/or your group is undergeared. If the timer didn't exists yet you could still finish a key in a reasonable amount of time, then your group's issue is likely execution and not the difficulty/timer.

While I generally can see this, how true is it?

The only thing that I can see that would be timer related is enraged timer. How much more difficult is the next compared to the current level? What is the difficult curve?

I have not done any M+ so I have zero experience on this. But using my examples as a Disc Priest. Sure it takes me longer to solo some elites but it can be done.

[rhorle]

But we want actual hard content, not content that is stupid easy but made “difficult” because if you don’t do it quick, well, L2P.

But if it is "stupid easy" why can't you do it in time?

[Soikona]

But if it is "stupid easy" why can't you do it in time?

Never said I can’t?

[Pannonian]

New meta: 2 Tanks, 3 Healers. DPS go away, do something else.

[Jastall]

I don't mind the timer. M+ has its own issues, stemming almost entirely from the people who participate in them. Thing is though, if they can make challenging raid content that isn't time based, there's little reason they can't do the same for dungeons.

Raid content is absolutely time-based. What do you think enrage timers (whenever soft or hard) are? Or fights that ramp up the mechanics/raid damage the longer you're in them? Healer mana? Raid fights are all about killing the boss as fast as possible.

Again, I don't have that much of a problem with keys without a timer- but that means no weekly chest for you. Step down in difficulty, step down in reward.

[Penegal]

Just add a death cap instead of a timer for those that aren’t in a rush but say it’s easy. Same thread will be made because you’re not allowed to die your way to victory.

[melodramocracy]

Raid content is absolutely time-based. What do you think enrage timers (whenever soft or hard) are? Or fights that ramp up the mechanics/raid damage the longer you're in them? Healer mana? Raid fights are all about killing the boss as fast as possible.

Again, I don't have that much of a problem with keys without a timer- but that means no weekly chest for you. Step down in difficulty, step down in reward.

That's somewhat of an apples and oranges comparison. Your movement through a raid is very much a stop / go procedure, the pace requirements simply aren't there aside from the boss fight itself.

Hell, there have been boss fights where you wanted to let up on dps to make sure the next phase doesn't happen too early. You won't ever see that in M+

[rhorle]

Never said I can’t?

And yet you said it is difficult to do because of a timer. It can't be difficult if it is stupid easy.

[Kolvarg]

Raid content is absolutely time-based. What do you think enrage timers (whenever soft or hard) are? Or fights that ramp up the mechanics/raid damage the longer you're in them? Healer mana? Raid fights are all about killing the boss as fast as possible.

Everything you said about raids applies to a non-timed dungeon. Some bosses have enrages, even when they don't you still generally want to kill them as quickly as possible since the healer's mana will run out eventually, so on.

You're comparing individual raid fights (most of which don't last more than 5 minutes or so, almost none last more than 10 minutes) to entire dungeons (most of which have timers of 30 to 40min). Raid encounters are definitely time-influenced. Raid instances are not. And that's what some people are asking for: challenging dungeon instances that aren't time-based. (Some) bosses would still be time-influenced, that's not what people don't like about Mythic+.

[Jastall]

That's somewhat of an apples and oranges comparison. Your movement through a raid is very much a stop / go procedure, the pace requirements simply aren't there aside from the boss fight itself.

Hell, there have been boss fights where you wanted to let up on dps to make sure the next phase doesn't happen too early. You won't ever see that in M+

Then you're applying double standards. During a raid fight, the pacing is more breathneck than any dungeon, you can't even stop to give the healer time to drink or top off everyone. Raid fights are shorter than dungeons, to be sure, but are no less time-based at all.

If anything dungeons tend to be more lenient about the time- you can recover from wipes and still beat the timer. Wiping in a raid means starting over. You can fail the timer and get loot as compensation for the longer encounter time, fail an enrage timer and you're usually quite dead.

The rules and details ARE different, you're right, but the basic principle the same- you need to kill things fast to win, and the timer is part of the challenge. Whenever it's Mythic N'zoth's 12 minute enrage or Freehold's 33 minute one.

If people want a pause option in M+ so someone can take a leak or answer the door/phone, then I'm all for it honestly. It exists in competitive multiplayer games and barring technical issues, I see no reason not to implement it in M+ as well. But removing the timer entirely should mean degraded rewards, they are part and parcel of the design and challenge of the content.

[Biggles Worth]

There already is M+ without a timer, its called Mythic 0.

No, that's not it.

[Benitora]

I would be fine with it, if they gave those doing them timed slightly better loot.
Without timer, gear caps at 460 weekly chest, with timer, keep the cap at 475.

Cap the gear at the end of the dungeon without timer at 450, and keep the cap at 465 for those with timer.

The harder content here is obviously the one where you are fighting against the timer, so it should reward better loot. If they removed the timer and equaled the loot between them, there would likely be no real incentive to run them timed.
They may as well re-introduce the challenge mode from MoP and WoD then.

[subsidalos]

Lmao "A lot of us don't like it"

You can't make this stuff up I swear

[hyphnos]

I like that idea, instead of being rushed for time itd be nice if you could just get a group of people to clear a key for some upgrades, instead you really cant find groups to just get in M+ because of the culture of needing everyone overgeared in order to time it, or the IO gods will smite you

The game is designed so that the average player with average skill can without a lot of stress beat content that rewards gear that is at best a sidegrade or even worthless.

People who can do stressful timed content do it for a fucking lottery ticket not because the content rewards consistent upgrades.

Mythic + timers just add unncessary stress to self-organized content and people should be able to stretch themselves and improve themselves in ways other than overgearing content enough to burn through the hit points under an arbitrary timer.

Also, the whole affix system is total fucking garbage and is totally unnecessary. Mythic plus was a lot more fun in legion because the 2 stupid affixes didnt kick in til level 10 and there were a few levels without any at all. The geniuses that design the game looked at a drop off at 10 because of those affixes and decided the best solution was to just front load it so there was no drop off. Guaranfuckinteed mythic plus is a lot less used by casuals than in Legion because of that one stupid change.

This entire expansion, you can just easily get upgrades waiting on emissaries and now doing assaults and warfonts than beating your head against some mythic +7 or whatever it takes to get above 445 ilvl.

TLDR: The timer is only part of the stupid fucking design choices blizzard made under the delusion they were creating some sort of esport with mythic plus.

[Kehego]

The game is designed so that the average player with average skill can without a lot of stress beat content that rewards gear that is at best a sidegrade or even worthless.

People who can do stressful timed content do it for a fucking lottery ticket not because the content rewards consistent upgrades.

Mythic + timers just add unncessary stress to self-organized content and people should be able to stretch themselves and improve themselves in ways other than overgearing content enough to burn through the hit points under an arbitrary timer.

Also, the whole affix system is total fucking garbage and is totally unnecessary. Mythic plus was a lot more fun in legion because the 2 stupid affixes didnt kick in til level 10 and there were a few levels without any at all. The geniuses that design the game looked at a drop off at 10 because of those affixes and decided the best solution was to just front load it so there was no drop off. Guaranfuckinteed mythic plus is a lot less used by casuals than in Legion because of that one stupid change.

This entire expansion, you can just easily get upgrades waiting on emissaries and now doing assaults and warfonts than beating your head against some mythic +7 or whatever it takes to get above 445 ilvl.

TLDR: The timer is only part of the stupid fucking design choices blizzard made under the delusion they were creating some sort of esport with mythic plus.

so you're bad, gotcha.

[Vorality]

The game is designed so that the average player with average skill can without a lot of stress beat content that rewards gear that is at best a sidegrade or even worthless.

People who can do stressful timed content do it for a fucking lottery ticket not because the content rewards consistent upgrades.

Mythic + timers just add unncessary stress to self-organized content and people should be able to stretch themselves and improve themselves in ways other than overgearing content enough to burn through the hit points under an arbitrary timer.

Also, the whole affix system is total fucking garbage and is totally unnecessary. Mythic plus was a lot more fun in legion because the 2 stupid affixes didnt kick in til level 10 and there were a few levels without any at all. The geniuses that design the game looked at a drop off at 10 because of those affixes and decided the best solution was to just front load it so there was no drop off. Guaranfuckinteed mythic plus is a lot less used by casuals than in Legion because of that one stupid change.

This entire expansion, you can just easily get upgrades waiting on emissaries and now doing assaults and warfonts than beating your head against some mythic +7 or whatever it takes to get above 445 ilvl.

TLDR: The timer is only part of the stupid fucking design choices blizzard made under the delusion they were creating some sort of esport with mythic plus.

M+ is soooo perfect for all the reasons you listed against it. Bashing your head for +7, hello? +10s are easy AF with some effort. God forbid people put some effort into the game again to get gear finally. If you don't want to deal with the "annoying" affixes, say hello to RAIDING. Really wish Blizzard would make the loot from M+ even worse to create more of an incentive for people to raid again.

All I heard from you is "M+ is more fun when it's much easier and a snooze fest" yeah...no thanks.

The only thing toxic about the current state of the game and M+ is raider IO. Blizzard really needs to get that addon banned and put an INDIVIDUAL challenge - something like mage tower or horrific visions) that shows a players skill to get invited to groups. Sometimes you'll get HORRIBLE players with high io because they're carried, or look over great players because they're coming back from a break and can't get their IO up because they're never invited in the first place.

[hyphnos]

M+ is soooo perfect for all the reasons you listed against it. Bashing your head for +7, hello? +10s are easy AF with some effort. God forbid people put some effort into the game again to get gear finally. If you don't want to deal with the "annoying" affixes, say hello to RAIDING. Really wish Blizzard would make the loot from M+ even worse to create more of an incentive for people to raid again.

All I heard from you is "M+ is more fun when it's much easier and a snooze fest" yeah...no thanks.

The only thing toxic about the current state of the game and M+ is raider IO. Blizzard really needs to get that addon banned and put an INDIVIDUAL challenge - something like mage tower or horrific visions) that shows a players skill to get invited to groups. Sometimes you'll get HORRIBLE players with high io because they're carried, or look over great players because they're coming back from a break and can't get their IO up because they're never invited in the first place.

Uh huh. And all i heard is "mythic plus is soooo perfect".

it's not and the fact that there's 25 pages of discussion, the bulk of which is not "it's soo perfect" and we love the fucking timer says about all that needs saying.

As for your stupid addon and your problems screening players, you would have to if there was a middle ground for people to play the dungeons at lower stress level for lesser rewards but with the possibility of some small movement upwards. Instead players have to wheedle their way into content they may not have the skill or gear for in order to reach a place where there is a chance of an upgrade at all.

The solution to that problem is simple, trick people, buy carries or don't participate.

that doesn't sound perfect to me.

[NatePsy]

No, that's not it.

Yes, that is it, it offers 430 gear. You'll be fine killing mobs out in the world just fine with 430 gear, you don't need any higher unless you're doing progression raiding or pushing keys. It's that simple.

[Kendros]

Oh i see "I cant deal with pressure but still want to run said content at my pace, so just remove that, so i dont have to put the effort it requires to being invited to a pug". Yeah makes sense. Heres an idea: get in a casual guild, run stuff at your own guild pace. Solved.