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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    Everything you said about raids applies to a non-timed dungeon. Some bosses have enrages, even when they don't you still generally want to kill them as quickly as possible since the healer's mana will run out eventually, so on.

    You're comparing individual raid fights (most of which don't last more than 5 minutes or so, almost none last more than 10 minutes) to entire dungeons (most of which have timers of 30 to 40min). Raid encounters are definitely time-influenced. Raid instances are not. And that's what some people are asking for: challenging dungeon instances that aren't time-based. (Some) bosses would still be time-influenced, that's not what people don't like about Mythic+.
    Going by that stupid ass logic, then I might as well just quit life cause it’s just time based

  2. #462
    lmao, the fact that you can sum up arguments against the timer as "its an inconvenience" and "i dont like the pressure" just shows how stupid of an argument it is.

    The content is not for you. And thats fine. I hate saying that because it sounds really elitist, but the core concept of Mythic+ is that there is a timer.

  3. #463
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    If you don't conform to the timed-run strat even when just aiming to clear without timing and deal with the mechanics properly then you're somehow the pariah wasting other peoples time for adapting the tactics for the content and group you're in. People will rather leave a group than do things differently than they're used to. You must either outgear content and level-up keys or live with dealing with idiots that can't handle any criticism. It's maddening and infuriating to take part in.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  4. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Easier said than done, considering I have got benched In a few guilds now because I refuse to run M+ for the chest. I have stopped playing altogether now because of it and corruption gear (but that’s a topic for another day).
    I understand not wanting to run it with pugs but refusing to run it with a guild is just plain selfish. It's only natural they would bench you, considering you're unwilling to do the bare minimum to keep up with them. In an organized group the timer is an absolute non-issue, especially on a +15. If you want to raid but don't like m+ just talk to your guild and they'll help you for the weekly +15...

  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    lmao, the fact that you can sum up arguments against the timer as "its an inconvenience" and "i dont like the pressure" just shows how stupid of an argument it is.

    The content is not for you. And thats fine. I hate saying that because it sounds really elitist, but the core concept of Mythic+ is that there is a timer.
    The discussion isn't about who the content is for and no, the core concept of m+ is the scaling difficulty and affixes - both of which are fun to play with except for the big countdown in your face that is obnoxious and impossible to hide or ignore. You're just deflecting because you've got no counterargument and refuse to listen to the arguments presented to you - like so many others in this thread.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  6. #466
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    An option to burn the timer (and accept the penalties) at start sounds fine to me. A more challenging thing would be to design in progression in that. Would completing the dungeon upgrade the key anyway? Would that be fair? I don't think so. But a group constantly disabling the timer would eventually land on +2 keys unless they started running timed every so often.

    Guess the way to go would be that a completed non-timed dungeon produces a "tainted" key that will upgrade but not necessarily offer better rewards (or at least not the same ilvl as a normal key of equal level) nor be able to start a timed run at its level. Say you want it untainted again you have to accept a -5 to its level or something to that effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorality View Post
    The only thing toxic about the current state of the game and M+ is raider IO. Blizzard really needs to get that addon banned and put an INDIVIDUAL challenge - something like mage tower or horrific visions) that shows a players skill to get invited to groups. Sometimes you'll get HORRIBLE players with high io because they're carried, or look over great players because they're coming back from a break and can't get their IO up because they're never invited in the first place.
    Sounds like typical edge cases. RIO is fine. Makes matchmaking of people with similar experience better and it's fun to chase score.

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Going by that stupid ass logic, then I might as well just quit life cause it’s just time based
    I think many would if they had their 'expiration-date' following them around everywhere they went. Like the movie 'In Time'
    Nice attempt at a deflection though.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    The discussion isn't about who the content is for and no, the core concept of m+ is the scaling difficulty and affixes - both of which are fun to play with except for the big countdown in your face that is obnoxious and impossible to hide or ignore. You're just deflecting because you've got no counterargument and refuse to listen to the arguments presented to you - like so many others in this thread.
    The timer is an integral part of Mythic+ and it wouldnt work without it. A Mythic+ without a timer would just be a Mythic0 that just takes way longer. I mean, honestly, its bad enough that you get an item and a chest if you deplete a key anyway. Its like complaining about raid bosses having enrage mechanics.

  9. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    The timer is an integral part of Mythic+ and it wouldnt work without it. A Mythic+ without a timer would just be a Mythic0 that just takes way longer. I mean, honestly, its bad enough that you get an item and a chest if you deplete a key anyway. Its like complaining about raid bosses having enrage mechanics.
    Would that be a problem? It's like you're complaining people are rewarded for their time spent playing without meeting your arbitrary metrics for effort and reward.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    Would that be a problem? It's like you're complaining people are rewarded for their time spent playing without meeting your arbitrary metrics for effort and reward.
    Lol, logic of 2020.

    "I play, therefor reward me".

    Then we wonder why FIFA makes billions, and why EA/Activision, get worst as time goes.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Testodruid View Post
    Dont forget that its a game, its supposed to be fun and not feel like work.

    It doesnt have to be one way or the other, there could be two systems coexisting.

    One for tryharders wanting to push that offers cool titles and exclusive transmog (the time attack-players) and one for players that like to take things their own pace, that gets harder the higher your key is but offers heroic gear from 15+ onwards.
    It only feels like work to people that either

    a)Should not be playing it if they have reached a point in life, yet somehow the game has to change because they can no longer play it as much as they should, or were playing in the past, but the harder content they used to do has to scale down to their lifestyle now.

    You had kids? Congratulations, hope they become rocket scientists, they are healthy as fuck etc, but the game doesnt have to change because you no longer have 5h free/day and you have 5h free/week.

    b)People that shouldnt be playing it because skill levels, but we cant say that in a politically correct 2020, cause reminding someone the suck at one more thing in life is "bad".

    Do you work a lot? Make thousands? Amazing, wish i could too, why are you playing WoW again?

    If M+ doesnt have timer, it shouldnt reward gear, (They did cave and it rewards gear either way, but the majority cant really push the key to farm 465 gears 24/7, if this was allowed, whats the point?) and if that happens, no one will even bother with M+, people that only do things for a title or something are a minority, the younger generation does it for e-peen cause they arent mature enough, others play it because of progression, feeling of accomplishment that the RPG genre is based on.

    Every single time they removed or trivialized gear progression ,that point of the game mega suffered, because its the feeling of progression of the character, aka RPG, that gets people going.
    Last edited by potis; 2020-03-05 at 10:15 AM.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Penegal View Post
    I understand not wanting to run it with pugs but refusing to run it with a guild is just plain selfish. It's only natural they would bench you, considering you're unwilling to do the bare minimum to keep up with them. In an organized group the timer is an absolute non-issue, especially on a +15. If you want to raid but don't like m+ just talk to your guild and they'll help you for the weekly +15...
    Bare minimum? Are you serious? I can count on one hand the amount of upgrades I have got from m+ from their a nicely timed finished +19 or a weekly chest. Completing them is no the issue, the issues is that the content is sooo boring (I have tried pushed to 20 just to find this “fun”) the the reward is not worth it. It’s odd that they bench me for not doing my weekly but don’t bench those that do but do less damage for the gear they have. It kinda reminds me of a false economy, one you have fallen for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    I think many would if they had their 'expiration-date' following them around everywhere they went. Like the movie 'In Time'
    Nice attempt at a deflection though.
    Not a deflection. If that person is really saying raids are timed to the extent of M+, is that not The meaning of a straw man argument? I just took it a step further!

    But that film is actually good. I really enjoyed it! Even though it was timed content because eventually you run out of time to see it.

  13. #473
    What if we remove the timer, but your key goes 1 level lower if you take longer than X time?

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Going by that stupid ass logic, then I might as well just quit life cause it’s just time based
    Care to explain why it is stupid?

    I mean, humanity throughout history has been interested and at times obsessed with extending the time of human life, even with immortality, so if anything your silly deflection just further cements that most humans don't like doing things against a deadline
    Last edited by Kolvarg; 2020-03-05 at 11:16 AM.

  15. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Every single time they removed or trivialized gear progression ,that point of the game mega suffered, because its the feeling of progression of the character, aka RPG, that gets people going.
    I'd argue this is exactly the case right now and part of why mythic raiding is slowly dying, especially with the weekly chest-concept essentially giving you free gear without any effort on your part which seems to be what you're so opposed to.
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Lol, logic of 2020. "I play, therefor reward me".
    M+ doesn't have to be all or nothing without any options or choices for players to make in how they consume what's otherwise cool content. A lot like time-attack-trials, while a lot really don't.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2020-03-05 at 11:13 AM.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    What if we remove the timer, but your key goes 1 level lower if you take longer than X time?
    Well that is basically what we have now. Ignore the timer, get loot...

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    lmao, the fact that you can sum up arguments against the timer as "its an inconvenience" and "i dont like the pressure" just shows how stupid of an argument it is.

    The content is not for you. And thats fine. I hate saying that because it sounds really elitist, but the core concept of Mythic+ is that there is a timer.
    It doesn't sound like, it is.

    It's not a stupid argument because it's not supposed to be an argument. It's an opinion, just as valid as yours.

    The core concept of Mythic+ is increasing levels of difficulty, where each level makes the enemies have more health, deal more damage, and increase the number of affixes. The timer is just the easiest, most low-effort way of further increasing difficulty and justifying valuable rewards.

    Even if it was a core concept of Mythic+, it's still ok for people to want something different.

    And it's not like (most) people are even calling for timed Mythic+ to be removed, people just want challenging dungeons that aren't timed, that's all. Whether that's incorporated into Mythic+ as a checkbox/option or called something different I don't think anyone really cares.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    The timer is an integral part of Mythic+ and it wouldnt work without it. A Mythic+ without a timer would just be a Mythic0 that just takes way longer. I mean, honestly, its bad enough that you get an item and a chest if you deplete a key anyway. Its like complaining about raid bosses having enrage mechanics.
    And with a timer it's just a Mythic0 that you need to do faster?

    The very nature of increasing damage/health/affixes/etc will mean players will hit a natural barrier of their gear and skill. Will it be higher than it would otherwise be with timed runs? Probably. But that's not necessarily a problem.

  18. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Not a deflection. If that person is really saying raids are timed to the extent of M+, is that not The meaning of a straw man argument? I just took it a step further!

    But that film is actually good. I really enjoyed it! Even though it was timed content because eventually you run out of time to see it.
    No, it's called missing the point while tossing the dirt you're standing on at your opponent while thinking it leaves you any to stand on yourself.
    Why do you think raidbosses have enrage mechanics in the first place?
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2020-03-05 at 11:20 AM.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Bare minimum? Are you serious? I can count on one hand the amount of upgrades I have got from m+ from their a nicely timed finished +19 or a weekly chest. Completing them is no the issue, the issues is that the content is sooo boring (I have tried pushed to 20 just to find this “fun”) the the reward is not worth it. It’s odd that they bench me for not doing my weekly but don’t bench those that do but do less damage for the gear they have. It kinda reminds me of a false economy, one you have fallen for.



    Not a deflection. If that person is really saying raids are timed to the extent of M+, is that not The meaning of a straw man argument? I just took it a step further!

    But that film is actually good. I really enjoyed it! Even though it was timed content because eventually you run out of time to see it.
    wait what?your guild benched you for not doing weekly....but dont bench people who do weekly....and underperform compared to you?ok dude sure,that tottaly sounds like somthing realistic and tottaly not made up,it makes zero sense,why would your guild care about ur m+ if your not underperforming

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Testodruid View Post
    I understand your opinion, and you're entitled to it as I am to mine, but what evidence other than your anecdotal experiences do you have that x or y is the minority in those cases you refer to? Its easy to just claim that whatever content you prefer doing is the majoritys opinion as well, and the thing you dislike is the minoritys opinions.
    Who said anything about majority or minorities?

    The people i talk about are the majority, and Blizzard knows this, thats why the game is designed as it is.

    They fucked up and allowed the majority to catch up in end WOTLK, up until then the 99% never had relevant gear, or the time to get relevant gear, then they started handing it out in order to get them to do more stuff, along with systems to reduce the downtime of things, like LFG.

    What happened instead? Massive QQ about nothing to do, and unsubs and all sorts of shit, and more systems added, and more systems added, but it didnt matter, they kept allowing the majority to catch up.

    If the majority catches up, they cry, if they cry, the request changes.

    They cant fix it, so they are just catering to the expansion hoppers and patch hoppers, keep them for 2 months instead of 1, double revenue.

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