Is there any chance we could do away with the timer in M+? Alot of us don't like it.

[Tiwack]

Who said anything about majority or minorities?

The people i talk about are the majority, and Blizzard knows this, thats why the game is designed as it is.

They fucked up and allowed the majority to catch up in end WOTLK, up until then the 99% never had relevant gear, or the time to get relevant gear, then they started handing it out in order to get them to do more stuff, along with systems to reduce the downtime of things, like LFG.

What happened instead? Massive QQ about nothing to do, and unsubs and all sorts of shit, and more systems added, and more systems added, but it didnt matter, they kept allowing the majority to catch up.

If the majority catches up, they cry, if they cry, the request changes.

They cant fix it, so they are just catering to the expansion hoppers and patch hoppers, keep them for 2 months instead of 1, double revenue.

So you cry about the people crying? How does that make you any better? The only one fucking up is you if you think they shouldn't try to improve anything because nothing can be improved in the first place. People have been asking for something akin to the m+ system since wotlk to get something to do with the catchup-gear besides raiding. It's great to finally have it. It doesn't mean it's perfect nor does it mean anyone cares what you think other people think.

[Elim Garak]

Since when there's a timer in M+? The last time I played you could do it for as long as you want - you always get the chest, the timer was for bonus chests and the key upgrade.

[Kolvarg]

a)Should not be playing it if they have reached a point in life, yet somehow the game has to change because they can no longer play it as much as they should

By that logic Mythic+ and Challenge Mode should never have been introduced, because it was a change to the game. Timed dungeons were not a part of the game.

b)People that shouldnt be playing it because skill levels, but we cant say that in a politically correct 2020, cause reminding someone the suck at one more thing in life is "bad".

So people who "suck" at the game are not allowed to play/have fun with the game? Virtually no one is suggesting timed Mythic+ should be removed/replaced by non-timed Mythic+. People just want an alternative because they don't enjoy the timer, that's all. I also don't think anyone is suggesting non-timed Mythic+ should be as rewarding as timed Mythic+, certainly not at the same rate. You'd still have your precious "leet" timed runs to justify your self worth based on your "WoW skill".

[potis]

So you cry about the people crying? How does that make you any better? The only one fucking up is you if you think they shouldn't try to improve anything because nothing can be improved in the first place. People have been asking for something akin to the m+ system since wotlk to get something to do with the catchup-gear besides raiding. It's great to finally have it. It doesn't mean it's perfect nor does it mean anyone cares what you think other people think.

Who is crying? Its a secondary discussion that popped out of the M+ request.

No matter what you give the 99%, they will fail it, its how it is, i stopped giving excuses about the WoW community long ago.

People are insanely shit at the game, they cant even do basic things, its the same with my work where i get asked "WHY DO THE WIRELESS CAMERAS REQUIRE ELECTRICITY TO WORK, ARENT THEY WIRELESS, YOU SELLING LIES?"

Thats why M+ has increasement of 1 and not something else with some harder scaling, so the 99% can fail at their own maximum level.

They could add a secondary system, that scales the dungeon the same way, without any key, or a timer, or loot, giving you the option to start from the last + you timed.

So someone can do a +6 without the timer or loot, then a +7, or w'e until they hit a road block.

Watch the QQ about how its unfair that the timed runs get loot and they dont, and how are they gonna progress if they dont get loot.

By that logic Mythic+ and Challenge Mode should never have been introduced, because it was a change to the game. Timed dungeons were not a part of the game.



So people who "suck" at the game are not allowed to play/have fun with the game? Virtually no one is suggesting timed Mythic+ should be removed/replaced by non-timed Mythic+. People just want an alternative because they don't enjoy the timer, that's all. I also don't think anyone is suggesting non-timed Mythic+ should be as rewarding as timed Mythic+, certainly not at the same rate. You'd still have your precious "leet" timed runs to justify your self worth based on your "WoW skill".

Somehow my response fits for you too Check above.

And the answer is "entitlement", nothing else about it, ever since games became about stocks and investors, every single company caters to entitlement at some point.

YOU dont complain about rewarding M+ systems, the 99% will as i wrote 5 sentences above.

Why do you think failed runs give at least 2 items?

[Xaviaton]

Reading through this and someone mentioning TBC Heroics actually made me think - I can't remember anyone really complaining about the execution timer in Shattered Halls HC. I mean people complained it was hard, but not that it existed. I also remember not minding this even though I absolutely detest the M+ timer. I personally think this came down to a few differences:

First, it was an addition to the normal. Same as with Hard modes in raids (and now dungeons) the standard version was not timed and the timer was an opt-in rather than an opt-out. Generally speaking I think people prefer the opt-in version as most even vaguely competitive people would feel a twinge of shame in giving up on the 'standard version' of the game by lowering the difficulty to 'easy', and people are generally feeling more proud of being able to finish 'hard' than 'normal'.

Second, you only really had to deal with it once. You had to beat this timer to start unlocking raid content, which was the next tier of PvE and everyone kind of accepted this. It wasn't enough to complete the previous tier of content, you had to smash it, and that was fine. After this, however, you didn't really have to care about beating the timer, and would only do it to help people out or by accident as it eventually became trivial.

Third, it was immersive. Sure, the mechanics did not change at all. When you started the dungeon, a small timer appears and it counts down to 0 and if it hits 0, you fail the hard mode. However, in Shattered Halls, prisoners were executed. In the Purge of Stratholme, this Infinite Dragon dude peaced out after a certain amount of time. In M+, the timer stops. That's it. Compare this to the philosophy behind Horrific Visions in 8.3, where each new chest is unlocked by killing a boss before a timer (sanity) runs out. In essence, Horrific Visions are also just timed challenges but they are baked into the system rather than applied on top of the system, such as the m+ system is just placed on top of the pre-existing dungeon system. I still enjoy the Visions timer a lot more. I think this final point is the most personal thing about it, but I think m+ would be a lot more interesting if the "chest" at the end of a dungeon was a boss or mini-boss that varied depending on the weekly affix.

I think that it is obvious to everyone that m+ is a hugely successful and popular system as it currently is, and I think tinkering too much with it would most likely ruin it rather than improve it at this point. I don't think all content needs to be for everyone, and I generally just don't do m+, easy right? What I miss personally, though, is a system of incrementally harder dungeons for someone who dislikes the timer. I love doing dungeons at the beginning of an expansion because the normal -> heroic -> mythic progression provides this experience but with the exception of the Op. Mechagon release, the experience has been completely absent from BFA.

While it contradicts what I said about tinkering too much, this is basically how my perfect m+ would be like:
M+ is activated like it is now. When you activate it, you also choose whether or not to activate the timer which spawns a mini-boss at the end of the dungeon that disappears after some time. This boss drops extra loot and the key to the next tier of m+. I honestly prefer this to be a permanent unlock per character, as I don't see the appeal in re-doing lower level m+ content in order to arrive at a point where you can progress again. How is this different from the complaints people had about re-acquiring azerite traits at the beginning of BFA? The end effect is intended to be very similar to how m+ is now but with the key difference that it is designed to make people feel proud for completing hard mode instead of ashamed for failing normal mode. I have never heard anyone complain about Hard modes as they existed in Ulduar and Op. Mechagon and it still baffles me that Blizzard does not implement harder content in this style. I mean, Thorim and Hodir were literally just timed challenges, it's not like they need that much creativity to pull them off.

[exochaft]

Out of curiosity, I was wondering if Torgast (or however the tower is spelled in Shadowlands) is slated to have a timer. Could be an alternative to M+ where there is no timer but the metric is pass/failing floors. I think Horrific Visions are sort of a prototype in this regard, as there's actually a gear reward for the difficulty levels you beat.

Even if the tower had no literally timer and had a gear reward structure akin to Visions, you'd still technically have a timer in some fashion. Simple version is that the timer is based upon you killing everything on the floor before it kills you. While most people probably don't think in this abstract sort of way, it's something that's fairly common in theorycrafting, especially for tanks... but in solo content, this applies to everyone regardless of role (I guess technically it applies to all group content, too, it's just way harder to theorycraft groups). Now the issue comes in where you start cheesing mechanics/events. For example, if you're trying to kill a boss solo and you can't keep yourself alive long enough, you go tank/healer to survive... but the amount of time it takes to clear the event increases by a lot. In fact, that's more of the real reason that there are timers in the first place: to prevent cheesing content in ways that aren't healthy for the game.

Think about it, why are there hard/soft enrages on bosses? If there weren't, what would stop you from running 10 tanks or 10 healers in a mythic raid to trivialize the content? What about 4 tank and 1 healer M+? This sort of behavior has happened in the past, and Blizz has made adjustments to ensure this doesn't happen when power gains are on the line. This is why there are constant adjustments to spells and abilities where classes with immunities just trivialize the content. In general, the reason timers exist is to prevent gimmicky behavior and avoid excessively long fights/encounters.

People have to keep in mind that almost everyone is always looking for the easiest way to clear the content with the least amount of resistance, whether they want to admit it or not. In general, you don't purposefully make something harder on yourself unless you want the challenge or there's a better reward to be had if you do. Why do people think that people exploit to this day, regardless of the game/content? In the end, it always boils down to they want to make things as easy as possible for themselves without putting in the expected work. If you apply it to this topic, removing the timer from M+ would probably make the M+ situation insanely worse than whatever problems exist now. Removing the M+ timer is not the answer, creating new content where the timer less visible is likely what people are looking for. However, there will still need to be something that restricts the time in order to avoid gimmicky/exploitative behavior when the content rewards power gains, which is generally a timer in some shape or form.

[Penegal]

Bare minimum? Are you serious? I can count on one hand the amount of upgrades I have got from m+ from their a nicely timed finished +19 or a weekly chest. Completing them is no the issue, the issues is that the content is sooo boring (I have tried pushed to 20 just to find this “fun”) the the reward is not worth it. It’s odd that they bench me for not doing my weekly but don’t bench those that do but do less damage for the gear they have. It kinda reminds me of a false economy, one you have fallen for.

I never said it was about the reward. Just because you don't like something you have decided to forgo the chance of an upgrade while other people put in that effort. It shows you at least want to help out. An extra source of gear which has a guaranteed capped item level is not a bad thing. At the very least you can unlock a slot to trade later on if you get a useless item for a slot you have equipped a lower item level one. It's not just about getting an upgrade. I've also barely gotten any upgrades from the m+ cache but I still do it. Personally, I enjoy it. It's not like it takes a lot of time or effort to complete a 15 with the gear we have today. It's normal for the guild to expect that from you.

Another thing, which I'm basing solely on how you worded yourself, is how you mentioned that those people do less damage for the gear they have. This means that you either have much lower gear and they still win out on damage or you also do less damage and they still win out. If you're in the upper echelon of the damage dealers while you get benched for people doing less damage than you could mean things like:

1. You can't trade loot efficiently due to lack of M+ caches.
2. You don't do mechanics correctly.
3. You just being unwilling to comply with what everyone else is doing to try and keep up is viewed as lack of motivation or just plain laziness. It just seems unfair to people who put in that extra effort, however little it may be. To me it's the same as not using consumables because they're too expensive for you and you cba to farm them yourself.

If any of this is true, it's not odd you get benched at all.

[Monolithi]

I understand not wanting to run it with pugs but refusing to run it with a guild is just plain selfish. It's only natural they would bench you, considering you're unwilling to do the bare minimum to keep up with them. In an organized group the timer is an absolute non-issue, especially on a +15. If you want to raid but don't like m+ just talk to your guild and they'll help you for the weekly +15...

In my guild, only 5-6 people do m+, rest of raiders dont, at all. And we still clear HC raids in 30-40 days since release.
Ofcourse, if heroic raiding isnt raiding by your standards, thats another matter.

[Kolvarg]

Think about it, why are there hard/soft enrages on bosses? If there weren't, what would stop you from running 10 tanks or 10 healers in a mythic raid to trivialize the content? What about 4 tank and 1 healer M+? This sort of behavior has happened in the past, and Blizz has made adjustments to ensure this doesn't happen when power gains are on the line. This is why there are constant adjustments to spells and abilities where classes with immunities just trivialize the content. In general, the reason timers exist is to prevent gimmicky behavior and avoid excessively long fights/encounters.

So if hard/soft enrages on bosses is the solution for Mythic raids, why can't it be the solution for untimed Mythic+? Not that I think it's a good solution in general, but it would still be better than an overall dungeon-wide timer.

Personally I don't even think it's a problem if people want to go 4 tank and 1 healer, that's their choice. There's a difference between such a thing being "viable" because there isn't a time limit, and being optimal / the path of least resistance, which would hardly ever be unless for a very tiny minority of players who might be willing to spend 2, 3 or more times the normal amount of time in a dungeon to push higher levels, but considering Mythic+ rewards stop scaling fairly quickly, I don't see how that would be a huge problem with the system.

[Kolvarg]

And the answer is "entitlement", nothing else about it, ever since games became about stocks and investors, every single company caters to entitlement at some point.

YOU dont complain about rewarding M+ systems, the 99% will as i wrote 5 sentences above.

Why do you think failed runs give at least 2 items?

I mean, if you say the 99% will still fail, why is the loot even an issue?

I don't see how that as anything to do as to whether untimed Mythic+ should be a thing or not. It's not about providing an easier or harder mode to acquire gear, it's about providing an alternate version of the system that is actually fun/interesting for a bigger number of people, because many simply don't like the timed aspect of it.

The exact details about how it would work and what kind of loot it would reward, and how, could and should be discussed, but the fact that it can be implemented in a bad way shouldn't deny discussing whether it should be implemented at all.

The fact that in the end there will always be someone complaining is not a good reason not to make a change, especially when it's a change that could make a decent system even better and appealing for a higher number of people.

[potis]

So if hard/soft enrages on bosses is the solution for Mythic raids, why can't it be the solution for untimed Mythic+? Not that I think it's a good solution in general, but it would still be better than an overall dungeon-wide timer.

Personally I don't even think it's a problem if people want to go 4 tank and 1 healer, that's their choice. There's a difference between such a thing being "viable" because there isn't a time limit, and being optimal / the path of least resistance, which would hardly ever be unless for a very tiny minority of players who might be willing to spend 2, 3 or more times the normal amount of time in a dungeon to push higher levels, but considering Mythic+ rewards stop scaling fairly quickly, I don't see how that would be a huge problem with the system.

I mean come on, reaching dumb levels here.

"Whats the problem if people want to go 4 tanks".

And what about classes without a tank spec?

"Lets remove reset walls then, just kite the bosses, why not?" Same logic.

Why even use a tank then? Or why a healer, just monk tank and roll forever to the +40.

Wait..Lets change the whole game mechanics for the last 15 years of the holy trinity because little billy cant comprehend why the timer exists and wants to do it without the timer and get the loot.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, if you say the 99% will still fail, why is the loot even an issue?

I don't see how that as anything to do as to whether untimed Mythic+ should be a thing or not. It's not about providing an easier or harder mode to acquire gear, it's about providing an alternate version of the system that is actually fun/interesting for a bigger number of people, because many simply don't like the timed aspect of it.

The exact details about how it would work and what kind of loot it would reward, and how, could and should be discussed, but the fact that it can be implemented in a bad way shouldn't deny discussing whether it should be implemented at all.

The fact that in the end there will always be someone complaining is not a good reason not to make a change, especially when it's a change that could make a decent system even better and appealing for a higher number of people.

The timing how you responded as i was typing.

And to your answer, Blizzard knows better.

If they arent adding systems or removing stuff its because they know better, as i said before, add a system without items, the actual participation will be really low, despite what you might believe.

People dont care to do "harder stuff", a minority of the majority of people do, raiding is the perfect example.

They tried 2 expansions to get people to get better, play better, free gear, normal mode, nothing worked.

Remove 50% of mechanics, nerf by 50%, add LFG? LFR! Worked, "raid" participation hit over 50% at times on active playerbase, they kept it and expanded on it.

Now we reached a point where its trully irelevant to go into LFR as a player that does even 1 thing more cause the item levels dropping are irrelevant.

[Zarvel]

It just promotes rush rush rush gameplay, and sets up pugs for toxicity.

I'm finding it really hard to understand what the timer has to do with it. People who aren't chasing the arbitrary 3rd party score from RaiderIo, i.e, those who take it more casually, generally do not bother with the timer and have a "meh, if we time it, great, if we don't, it's not the end of the world" mentality. If you see people with the go-go-go mentality, its usually from someone wanting the key to be a 2-3 chest run to up their IO or someone who's run the key on a higher level and joins the wrong level of content, a tier below where they should stay, Or a dps/heal who has no clue what others in the group are dealing with from a group standpoint.
You can already choose to run keys "without a timer" - they're called "weekly" or "completion only" runs. You just won't be upgrading your key at the end, that's all, since it's essentially free loot because you'll be playing the key against how the system was designed.

Maybe just add an option to run them with one chest at the end, without a timer? That keeps everyone happy.

Ok, this bit tells me you've either never run a key to completion on any level and are just here parroting someone else's opinion, or you're just trolling. Waste of a thread.

[Kolvarg]

And what about classes without a tank spec?

Being possible to go 4 tanks doesn't mean it is required to go 4 tanks. It's a choice.
On the other hand, with timed Mythic+, what about all the classes that have a hard time getting invited because they're not as useful for timed runs?

"Lets remove reset walls then, just kite the bosses, why not?"

I mean that's just a plain strawman as it in no way relates to anything I've said so far.

Wait..Lets change the whole game mechanics for the last 15 years of the holy trinity because little billy cant comprehend why the timer exists and wants to do it without the timer and get the loot.

The game mechanics don't stop you in any way to attempt to do a dungeon with 5 tanks, or with 5 healers, or with 5 dps, or with whatever combination you might want to try.

And you already get loot even if you fail the timer.

[Tehshocka]

For someone that likes to try and sound clever in their replies, you really don't have a grasp of what you're talking about. The timer IS the scary thing and it has nothing to do with skill.

For the majority of players, it boils down to human psychology. Even if you all agree to ignore the timer, there's still that little voice in peoples heads that dislikes being told they've failed at something, even if they weren't aiming for it in the first place. Sure, there are some people that don't have that, but most people do. So seeing the timer run out still feels like a failure, even if you weren't aiming to clear it in the first place. It's an additional little stress that really doesn't need to be there.

The whole thing could easily be solved by adding a checkbox to the key when you put it in the pedestal. "Do you want to do a timed run?" If you check yes, you get the timer, the chance of bonus loot and key upgrades. If you check no, you get the difficulty, but without the timer and only the chance of one chest (which is what you get if you fail the timer anyway).

Honestly, from a development point of view, it wouldn't be that hard, all the mechanics exist to do it and it would provide more challenging, but enjoyable content for a lot of players.

1) If you dont make the timer at any level, yes you have failed. Life is made of success and failure. Just keep practicing and level up the knowledge of the dungeons you want, and with time, you'll find yourself +1 / +2 /+3 with relative ease.

The problem is, people don't want to put in the work, or worse, reduce the expectations because of...feelings.

[Kolvarg]

And to your answer, Blizzard knows better.

If they arent adding systems or removing stuff its because they know better, as i said before, add a system without items, the actual participation will be really low, despite what you might believe.

Sure, because that's the only possible reason for them not adding something to the game.

And we all know Blizzard is always right. Just like they've publicly stated for 13 years that WoW Classic wouldn't happen because they didn't think there would be enough interest.

People dont care to do "harder stuff", a minority of the majority of people do, raiding is the perfect example.

They tried 2 expansions to get people to get better, play better, free gear, normal mode, nothing worked.

That's a direct contradiction. If people don't care to do "harder stuff", and Blizzard knows better and doesn't add things that have low participation, then why did they even added Mythic+ in the first place?

[Zarvel]

I mean, if you say the 99% will still fail, why is the loot even an issue?

I don't see how that as anything to do as to whether untimed Mythic+ should be a thing or not. It's not about providing an easier or harder mode to acquire gear, it's about providing an alternate version of the system that is actually fun/interesting for a bigger number of people, because many simply don't like the timed aspect of it.

The exact details about how it would work and what kind of loot it would reward, and how, could and should be discussed, but the fact that it can be implemented in a bad way shouldn't deny discussing whether it should be implemented at all.

Huh?
Why is "untimed" mythic plus even an ask? It already exists? Just don't time your key?
If you want to upgrade your key, prove you're good enough to handle the current level with a timed difficulty so you can proceed to the next level. Isn't that how RPG's work in general? It's a 25+ year old concept, if not way older. Why are folks trying to bring it back into the spotlight when it's already been front and center for ages now?
If you're asking for a way to do untimed keys where your key level does not deplete? No, just no. It will break the gearing system in the game. What's to stop a group of players from repeatedly running the same level of key in their own sweet time and deck themselves with gear? There has to be a breaking point somewhere that tells players "you're currently not good enough for this - try a lower level or come back later when you're more prepped", and that's what the timer is for.

This whole thread is weird af. I thought blizzard was out of touch with their game. Seems the community is just as out of touch with logic and the design as well.
Also sorry if I misquoted you instead of the dude you were responding to, i haven't gone through previous pages, and your post in isolation was confusing af xD

[Kolvarg]

If you want to upgrade your key, prove you're good enough to handle the current level with a timed difficulty

If you can complete the dungeon, you are good enough to handle it. If it's too hard for your group, you won't be able to complete it. Same as raids of any difficulty right now. You don't have to clear it from start to finish in one go in X amount of time, you just progress through it at your own pace, taking as many breaks as needed between each boss, failing each boss as many times as you need, and moving on to higher difficulties if you want.

Timing doesn't need to be a part of it, and it historically in WoW almost never has been the case before Challenge Modes and then Mythic+.
It can be, and I have absolutely no problem with people who enjoy it, and I don't want it to go away. But personally I would like for an untimed alternative as the timer just makes it unnecessary stressful even if I know I can beat it.

What's to stop a group of players from repeatedly running the same level of key in their own sweet time and deck themselves with gear? There has to be a breaking point somewhere that tells players "you're currently not good enough for this - try a lower level or come back later when you're more prepped", and that's what the timer is for.

If the key upgrades by 1 when you complete the dungeon untimed, you can't just run the same key level to get as much gear as you want. There's also plenty other systems to avoid this already in the game, like daily or weekly lockouts.

The breaking point is when the players are unable to get past a boss or pack group because it's just too hard for their current group / gear / skill.

[Zarvel]

Being possible to go 4 tanks doesn't mean it is required to go 4 tanks. It's a choice.
On the other hand, with timed Mythic+, what about all the classes that have a hard time getting invited because they're not as useful for timed runs?

I never get the excuse of "i find it hard to get invited to keys so I can't do keys". I play some of those "niche" classes myself, like Spriest, and i workaround that issue by running my own keys and got a few 15s timed last season without any problems. Maybe take matters into your own hands instead of depending on a bunch of unknown randoms across the world?

The game mechanics don't stop you in any way to attempt to do a dungeon with 5 tanks, or with 5 healers, or with 5 dps, or with whatever combination you might want to try.

Uh, actually, they do. You cannot for instance do any 10+ key without a tank of some sort or a pet class with a tank pet just because of how hard the awakened lieutenants hit. Good luck doing that with a group of 5 priests, for instance.
M+ key levels and the timer exist to keep the Holy Trinity core in check to a part.

And you already get loot even if you fail the timer.

Exactly? So what's the argument for this "new" untimed key mode all about anyway?

[Penegal]

In my guild, only 5-6 people do m+, rest of raiders dont, at all. And we still clear HC raids in 30-40 days since release.
Ofcourse, if heroic raiding isnt raiding by your standards, thats another matter.

It's not that it's not raiding but the gear requirements are lower and it's easier to get gear that will unlock the slot for trading from other sources when you raid heroic. That's the difference. Also, if it's not expected by the guild for people to run their weekly m+ there's nothing stopping people from running it if they want to. If the raiders are expected to do their weekly m+ it's another story if you still don't want to do it. In the former scenario, some people put extra effort while in the latter those who don't do m+ put in less effort than the minimum required.

[Zarvel]

If you can complete the dungeon, you are good enough to handle it. If it's too hard for your group, you won't be able to complete it. Same as raids of any difficulty right now. You don't have to clear it from start to finish in one go in X amount of time, you just progress through it at your own pace, taking as many breaks as needed between each boss, failing each boss as many times as you need, and moving on to higher difficulties if you want.

This is false on so many levels. Here, let me explain.
1. If it takes you 5 wipes to kill a boss and barely scrape by whereas another group straight up 1 shots each boss with the same gear you have, who do you think is "good enough" to handle it and who isn't? Let's put this in a corporate perspective to make it simpler to you:
* Employee A can wrap up a project's task in 20 minutes with proper efficiency.
* Employee B can wrap up a project's task in 60 minutes after 1 previous failed attempt.
Of the 2 above, who do you think is ready for a promotion? Unless Employee B is sucking you off under the desk daily and you like it and want to keep at it, there is no way Employee A won't get the promotion in this scenario, while Employee B has to keep going at it to get better until they do it well enough like Employee A to earn a promotion.

2. You just cannot compare raids to dungeons. Raids are more time and effort intensive than dungeons in general (unless you're running high keys, but those high key folks aren't the ones creating this false issue like you are, now are they?). Which means you cannot let dungeons that give players equivalent gear for reduced time and effort be a relaxed and repeatable source of farm. That's a Design No-No 101.
If you're spending too much time killing a dungeon boss that others with same gear level or higher skill level than you do, that's a clear indication that you're not "good enough" or "ready enough" for the content you're currently trying to tackle. And as such, you should be happy with whatever rewards you're already getting out of an untimed key.

Timing doesn't need to be a part of it, and it historically in WoW almost never has been the case before Challenge Modes and then Mythic+.
It can be, and I have absolutely no problem with people who enjoy it, and I don't want it to go away. But personally I would like for an untimed alternative as the timer just makes it unnecessary stressful even if I know I can beat it.

Again, as I've explained previously in other threads and in posts before in this very thread, the timer is an absolute necessity for this kind of endless scaling content. The timer IS the challenge. M+ IS for challenge. Just because casual players can enter M+ too doesn't mean it needs to cater to them. M+ timed system exists, you can try it, if it caters to you then good, you can keep working at it. If it doesn't cater to you but you feel you still need the rewards from it, that's just a personal fault and you should set your expectations better.

Yeah, historically timers weren't a part of WoW, and that is why historically players abandoned dungeons within a couple weeks of running them. This whole timed system with lucrative rewards was added so players can decide what difficulty they want to set the Dungeon templates on to challenge themselves AND to receive worthy loot for doing so. If you don't like the timed aspect, you're not part of the M+ target audience. It's that simple. You're talking about all this like there's someone physically stopping you from doing keys outside the timer - there isn't. Just join a "weekly" or "chill" run and do they key at your own pace. Doesn't need a new system for that.

If the key upgrades by 1 when you complete the dungeon untimed, you can't just run the same key level to get as much gear as you want. There's also plenty other systems to avoid this already in the game, like daily or weekly lockouts.

The breaking point is when the players are unable to get past a boss or pack group because it's just too hard for their current group / gear / skill.

Did you read what you typed? I'm guessing not. I emboldened it to help.
The bold bit actually describes a worse problem than the one you're trying to solve. If your key upgrades by 1 if you complete it outside the designated time, you just got a free shot at even better loot at a small increase in scaling and a slightly smaller increase in time investment. That free shot should have never been available to you in the first place cuz you were not good enough to beat the content at 1 level lower. That's like asking for Mythic bosses to have no enrage timer.

Use logic man. Logic, it never fails.