[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Forogil]

All this talk of GDP I wonder if the predictions account for this?

EU panic: German companies ‘poised to relocate to UK’

"Imagine you are a German car manufacturer and you have already seen a 5 to a 7 percent decline in the European car market. "But in a few years time, you realise that if you relocate your factory to Sunderland, you will be able to sell your Audis, Mercedes tariff free to the US."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12...s-carswell-spt

More benefits of brexit to the UK revealed...BMW renamed to British Motor Work? You heard it here first folks!

Are UKIP leaders, British newspapers, and their readers really that out of touch with reality?

BMW already manufacture cars in the US (and in China, and in other places), but even if it was a choice for a new plant, what benefits would their be with a new UK factory compared to a new one in the US - even assuming no tariffs?

And Trump would gladly agree to this after re-negotiating NAFTA where one goal was increased automotive manufacturing in the US?

[Teleros]

Seriously what are you going on about? The linked figures predicted GDP based on certain trading scenarios - in order for it be a useful comparison it is assumed that there will be no difference in tax regimes, etc between each scenario.

Don't need to change tax rates etc for a trade agreement to alter taxes.

So your fall back is some sort of conspiracy theory?!? Given the government's actions and their proposals I don't think they have much intention to do things the way they've always been done.

1. Is any government a monolithic organisation? Of course not. Yes Prime Minister was closer to a documentary than a comedy in far too many respects.
2. Think about how the government works - ie typically with elected mediocrities nominally in charge of the experts.
3. Think about how & why people in general do things. Why do you drive on one side of the road & not the other? Or use certain plug types, or whatever. Inertia is a powerful force in human affairs.

That really makes no sense. How does increasing the potential market in which you can sell cars increase the supply of labour (which was your initial point)?

Per your original question: What? The point of a FTA is to open up foreign markets and in order to enable our businesses to sell more to our trading partners. I simply cannot make the link between reducing or limiting trade and an increase in wages - perhaps you could explain your thinking?

Let's say there's tariffs on cars between the USA & UK right now. The effect of this is to protect domestic car manufacturers by limiting the market, right? US-built cars are more expensive, thus competition is reduced. This also applies to things like the labour force at those car manufacturers, which makes it easier for said workers to push for higher wages. However, if there's a FTA in cars in place, the market's larger, and that will pretty much always have the effect of driving down costs, which includes wages. Even if wages don't decrease under such circumstances, it's much harder for them to increase vs in a more protected domestic market.

Look, I acknowledge that GDP is not a good measure as to how well the person on the street is doing and Brexit might well bring benefits to the average person despite GDP growth not being as strong as if we'd remained in the EU - I even said as much several posts ago - but using GDP to compare different trading scenarios is perfectly valid and to be honest your insistence that is not is really quite bizarre.

Eh, NVM. I doubt we're going to get anywhere on this point.

[Pann]

Don't need to change tax rates etc for a trade agreement to alter taxes.

Trade agreements can and will alter the tax take but that is the whole entire point of modelling them.

1. Is any government a monolithic organisation? Of course not. Yes Prime Minister was closer to a documentary than a comedy in far too many respects.
2. Think about how the government works - ie typically with elected mediocrities nominally in charge of the experts.
3. Think about how & why people in general do things. Why do you drive on one side of the road & not the other? Or use certain plug types, or whatever. Inertia is a powerful force in human affairs.

None of this makes any sense whatsoever. You're entire argument is that the government have deliberately chosen to figures that shows that their flagship policy - Get Brexit Done! - is bad for economic growth and their much touted US FTA is not all that great.

Given that all governments want to present themselves in a positive light why would they choose a methodology to measure their performance that does the very opposite?

Erm, we drive on one side of the road because if we didn't we all crash into each other. And we use certain plugs because if we did not we would find that our appliances would not work or worse cause a fire or electrocute us. You can't be serious?

I feel I might have fallen into a trap. If I have - well played - you got me hook, line and sinker. If that was serious then I really don't know what to say.

Per your original question: What? The point of a FTA is to open up foreign markets and in order to enable our businesses to sell more to our trading partners. I simply cannot make the link between reducing or limiting trade and an increase in wages - perhaps you could explain your thinking?

Let's say there's tariffs on cars between the USA & UK right now. The effect of this is to protect domestic car manufacturers by limiting the market, right? US-built cars are more expensive, thus competition is reduced. This also applies to things like the labour force at those car manufacturers, which makes it easier for said workers to push for higher wages. However, if there's a FTA in cars in place, the market's larger, and that will pretty much always have the effect of driving down costs, which includes wages. Even if wages don't decrease under such circumstances, it's much harder for them to increase vs in a more protected domestic market.

The car industry is not a particularly good example as it is going through major shake up worldwide but the market is for the most part driven by demand and in particular the low cost of car finance.

The economy of scale can reduce costs but to suggest that wages is one of those costs that will go down when there is an increased demand for a product is quite frankly nonsense.

Eh, NVM. I doubt we're going to get anywhere on this point.

Indeed.

[dribbles]

Todays looney toons from Brussels rather than the best person for the job EU companies must now staff their boardrooms 50/50 male and female. Investors take note!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...r-Leyen-latest

Now we are out thanks to silly EU rules half our Father Christmas's won't have to be a Mother Christmas, another benefit of brexit. Hahahahaaa You can't make this stuff up eurochums...

[Elegiac]

Todays looney toons from Brussels rather than the best person for the job EU companies must now staff their boardrooms 50/50 male and female. Investors take note!

You're right.

In order to make it fair, many of these boardrooms should have 100% female members.

[Gibblewink]

Todays looney toons from Brussels rather than the best person for the job EU companies must now staff their boardrooms 50/50 male and female. Investors take note!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...r-Leyen-latest

Now we are out thanks to silly EU rules half our Father Christmas's won't have to be a Mother Christmas, another benefit of brexit. Hahahahaaa You can't make this stuff up eurochums...

Apparently you CAN make it up, as the article you linked as usual doesn't actually say what you claim....

[Fuiking]

Apparently you CAN make it up, as the article you linked as usual doesn't actually say what you claim....

I was trying to read it.. but the Express has some annoying build up .. with ads strewn about like confetti.. so far my mind could actually handle that shitty build: She wants to (leyen), but it isnt through yet.

[Teleros]

Todays looney toons from Brussels rather than the best person for the job EU companies must now staff their boardrooms 50/50 male and female. Investors take note!

B-b-but dribbles, everyone knows that women are better at these things than men! Everyone!

Seriously, some fun quotes from the article though:

"Accumulated lifetime gender employment and pay gaps result in an even wider pension gap and consequently older women are more at risk of poverty than men"

Turns out if you work less, or ask for less, you get paid less. Who knew?

"Using only half of the population, half of the ideas or half of the energy is not good enough"

Pretty sure the men provide way more than half the energy & ideas .

[FluFF]

Todays looney toons from Brussels rather than the best person for the job EU companies must now staff their boardrooms 50/50 male and female. Investors take note!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...r-Leyen-latest

Now we are out thanks to silly EU rules half our Father Christmas's won't have to be a Mother Christmas, another benefit of brexit. Hahahahaaa You can't make this stuff up eurochums...

Can't you ever make any sort of argument or point or post without using terms like eurochums and other things that make you look like you're 10 ?

Apart from the fact that you always link stuff and then take it out of context with your own words it's not even worth the time to quote or reply to you in like 95% of the cases cause the terms you always use and the way you write your posts feels like I would reply to a 10 year old who found out a word and keeps using it in every post.

You look like that kid in the movie American History X who is mad at a certain part of the world/people but doesn't fundamentally know why so he's just mad all the time, only difference is in the movie he sees the propaganda in the end and knows it's mostly if not all bullshit, shame that won't ever happen to you.

[Huehuecoyotl]

B-b-but dribbles, everyone knows that women are better at these things than men! Everyone!

Seriously, some fun quotes from the article though:

"Accumulated lifetime gender employment and pay gaps result in an even wider pension gap and consequently older women are more at risk of poverty than men"

Turns out if you work less, or ask for less, you get paid less. Who knew?

"Using only half of the population, half of the ideas or half of the energy is not good enough"

Pretty sure the men provide way more than half the energy & ideas .

I was going to respond to this post seriously, but I can't raise the energy to be honest. So I'll just hope that this is satirical, rather than a genuine reflection of who you are. Because if it is genuine, I feel very sorry for any women that end up anywhere near you. I would suggest getting yourself some education about the achievements of women in history. Maybe start with the first person in history to win 2 Nobel prizes?

(That was Marie Curie, in case you were wondering).

[dribbles]

I was going to respond to this post seriously, but I can't raise the energy to be honest. So I'll just hope that this is satirical, rather than a genuine reflection of who you are. Because if it is genuine, I feel very sorry for any women that end up anywhere near you. I would suggest getting yourself some education about the achievements of women in history. Maybe start with the first person in history to win 2 Nobel prizes?

(That was Marie Curie, in case you were wondering).

Thank you for that post, that did make me think of women who I admire. The first name that came to mind was Margaret Thatcher. If only she was still here to swing her handbag at the EU over brexit wouldn't you agree?

[dribbles]

You do know Margaret Thatcher was PM for ten years and never made any move to exit the EU or call a referendum?

She laid the very foundations for Brexit. What a remarkable woman.

BREXIT: We want our money back!

[Pann]

She laid the very foundations for Brexit. What a remarkable woman.

BREXIT: We want our money back!

Thatcher was pro-European - she supported remaining in the EEC in 1975 - however the EU in its current form did not come into existence until the Treaty of Maastricht in 1992 which she opposed.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Thatcher was pro-European - she supported remaining in the EEC in 1975 - however the EU in its current form did not come into existence until the Treaty of Maastricht in 1992 which she opposed.

And yet many of the people that knew her said that she would have been a Remainer if she'd been alive during the referendum: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...u-views-brexit

[dribbles]

Thatcher was pro-European - she supported remaining in the EEC in 1975 - however the EU in its current form did not come into existence until the Treaty of Maastricht in 1992 which she opposed.

In the beginning I'd agree she was pro European just like me, she gave the EU or its precursor every opportunity to be reasonable but after 10 or so years of trying, indeed in that video from 1979 I linked she was warning the EU to be of "One last chance", she knew that the writing was on the wall for continued British membership of the EU.

She was never pro EU.

It was only conniving remainer John Major vs "the bastards" that prevented this issue from coming to a head decades ago. Had it not been for that man, the ultimate remainer, and if Thatcher had remained in power we would have left the EU sooner I am sure. Still it is very nice to know and quite comforting in her memory we are now, finally, carrying out the great womans wishes.

As she once said, "let us rejoice", rejoice for Brexit!

[Teleros]

I would suggest getting yourself some education about the achievements of women in history.

I would suggest getting yourself some education about the achievements of men in history. Maybe do a little compare & contrast exercise afterwards. See, it turns out that men and woman are (gasp!) different, and as such are better at different things in general. As such, expecting there to be parity between the sexes in frankly anything - and I'll include such basic things as reading comprehension in that - is foolish. Demanding there be parity between the sexes is anti-reality.

Maybe start with the first person in history to win 2 Nobel prizes?

The plural of anecdote is not data.

And yet many of the people that knew her said that she would have been a Remainer if she'd been alive during the referendum: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...u-views-brexit

Lord Powell, one of Maggie's advisers, says she'd try to renegotiate* & stay in. Another close associate of hers, Norman Tebbit, says no. Charles Moore, who wrote her official biography, sides with Tebbit. The Grauniad hack sides with the Remoaner. Quelle surprise!

*Actually, if you read closely, what he's basically saying is that David Cameron is as good a negotiator with the EU as Maggie Thatcher, which is hilarious.

[Rozz]

Keep in mind that gender issues are a forbidden topic that are not appropriate for discussion.

[Mayhem]

I would suggest getting yourself some education about the achievements of men in history. Maybe do a little compare & contrast exercise afterwards. See, it turns out that men and woman are (gasp!) different, and as such are better at different things in general. As such, expecting there to be parity between the sexes in frankly anything - and I'll include such basic things as reading comprehension in that - is foolish. Demanding there be parity between the sexes is anti-reality.

You are a prime example of a failed education system.
[Infraction]

[LeGin Tufnel]

-snip-

Mod Edit: Report posts you are concerned with. Do not call for infractions.

[Kallisto]

-snip-

Remember in this forum left is bad, far right is alternate legitamet political views.

Meanwhile more brexit stupidity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51783580