Is there any chance we could do away with the timer in M+? Alot of us don't like it.

[Neenaw]

The timer IS the challenge of mythic +. Otherwise people would sheep every mob and dps them down one at a time. Hard pass.

I think people are saying they would like the challenege to be something other than timers/speed. It requires less thought and tactics.

the challanege could come from really hard packs, more dynamic use of patrols, having to use CC effectively, tactics through a dungeon, or plenty of other things as well. It doesn't HAVE to be speed all the time.

Some people don't want to be so rushed the whole time, that you basically ignore the dungeon and spam pack, after pack, after pack.

[Kolvarg]

I never get the excuse of "i find it hard to get invited to keys so I can't do keys". I play some of those "niche" classes myself, like Spriest, and i workaround that issue by running my own keys and got a few 15s timed last season without any problems. Maybe take matters into your own hands instead of depending on a bunch of unknown randoms across the world?

The fact that you "can" make your own group doesn't deny that some classes are at a disadvantage because of the timed nature of it. The classes aren't and shouldn't be designed around trying to move through an entire instance as fast as possible. At least that's my opinion

With that said, it's not an excuse. It was part of a counter-argument to potis' argument that 4 tanks potentially being viable in an untimed Mythic+ would be unfair towards classes with no tank spec. I also never mentioned it's a problem that applies to me.

Uh, actually, they do. You cannot for instance do any 10+ key without a tank of some sort or a pet class with a tank pet just because of how hard the awakened lieutenants hit. Good luck doing that with a group of 5 priests, for instance.
M+ key levels and the timer exist to keep the Holy Trinity core in check to a part.

I never said you can complete it, I've said the game mechanics do not prevent you from trying. Whether or not it is possible to complete it will depend on how the dungeons are developed and tuned, and on the players of course. Just like in raids, where there is no such instance timer, and the Holy Trinity core is just fine.

Exactly? So what's the argument for this "new" untimed key mode all about anyway?

The argument is that an untimed key mode, where you don't need to race against a clock and can still progress to higher levels of M+, would just be a significantly more appealing activity to a number of people. That's all.

Of the 2 above, who do you think is ready for a promotion?

Except this is a game, not a job
One group performing better than another just means they are better. It doesn't necessarily mean that the worse group isn't good enough.

Or is Method a bad guild because they take hundreds of attempts to kill a Mythic raid boss?

I also never said that untimed M+ rewards need to be necessarily on par with timed M+ rewards. It is entirely a possibility that untimed M+ rewards lower ilvl at a slower rate.

That's a Design No-No 101.
If you're spending too much time killing a dungeon boss that others with same gear level or higher skill level than you do, that's a clear indication that you're not "good enough" or "ready enough" for the content you're currently trying to tackle.

Except M+ isn't about how fast you can kill a dungeon boss, it's about how fast you can go through an entire instance, which is a very different thing.

Again, as I've explained previously in other threads and in posts before in this very thread, the timer is an absolute necessity for this kind of endless scaling content. The timer IS the challenge. M+ IS for challenge. Just because casual players can enter M+ too doesn't mean it needs to cater to them. M+ timed system exists, you can try it, if it caters to you then good, you can keep working at it. If it doesn't cater to you but you feel you still need the rewards from it, that's just a personal fault and you should set your expectations better.

Disagree. The timer is part of the challenge, but it doesn't need to be. The content scales, therefore no matter how much time you have available you will reach a breaking point where you simply are not able to get past a boss or a pack of mobs until you get better and/or get more gear.

I'm not saying M+ needs to do anything. I'm saying dungeons can be hard without the timer, and that difficulty can cater to casuals and overall a bigger group of people than timed M+ does.

Wanting an untimed version of M+ has nothing to do with skill or lack of thereof, or with being casual or hardcore. It's about a personal preference on what type of difficulty and gameplay to engage with.

Yeah, historically timers weren't a part of WoW, and that is why historically players abandoned dungeons within a couple weeks of running them. This whole timed system with lucrative rewards was added so players can decide what difficulty they want to set the Dungeon templates on to challenge themselves AND to receive worthy loot for doing so. If you don't like the timed aspect, you're not part of the M+ target audience. It's that simple. You're talking about all this like there's someone physically stopping you from doing keys outside the timer - there isn't. Just join a "weekly" or "chill" run and do they key at your own pace. Doesn't need a new system for that.

Players abandoned dungeons because the gear and challenge they presented stopped being relevant as their characters got more powerful because the dungeons did not scale. It had nothing to do with them having timers or not.

I'm not a part of the target M+ audience, yes, that is the point. That one simple alternate version of M+ could increase the target audience to me and potentially many others.

It's like saying gluten-free bread shouldn't be invented because bread is just not intended for people who can't have gluten.

You're talking about all this like there's someone physically stopping you from doing keys outside the timer - there isn't..

I have a better idea, we make M+ untimed, and you can open a stopwatch app and time your own runs.

The bold bit actually describes a worse problem than the one you're trying to solve. If your key upgrades by 1 if you complete it outside the designated time, you just got a free shot at even better loot at a small increase in scaling and a slightly smaller increase in time investment. That free shot should have never been available to you in the first place cuz you were not good enough to beat the content at 1 level lower. That's like asking for Mythic bosses to have no enrage timer.

What's the problem with having a "free shot" at loot? It's still a shot, if you can't complete the harder dungeon you won't get the better loot. You're not getting loot for free just because you can take your time with it.

It's nothing like asking Mythic bosses to have no enrage timer, because we're talking about timing an entire instance, not a single fight. Untimed M+ bosses can still have enrage timers if needed be.

[Zarvel]

I think people are saying they would like the challenege to be something other than timers/speed. It requires less thought and tactics.

the challanege could come from really hard packs, more dynamic use of patrols, having to use CC effectively, tactics through a dungeon, or plenty of other things as well. It doesn't HAVE to be speed all the time.

Some people don't want to be so rushed the whole time, that you basically ignore the dungeon and spam pack, after pack, after pack.

Another post where where someone's talking about feeling rushed. Why? Who do you feel so even when you can ignore the timer and complete the key?
This seems to be more of a psychological problem than anything else.


If you were to remove timers and keystone levels away (they're both mutual and I won't keep either in if 1 is removed) from the current iteration of m+, here's what would happen:
You start a key, you add new affixes to the dungeon, you take your own sweet time to do the dungeon to experience all the mechanics.
You come back again to re-experience it and to probably receive same loot. But this time those new mechanics or affixes are no longer new, and have just become part and parcel of the dungeon you're running. You would get no joy running it a third time.
If you were to add a keystone level to it, you would add nothing new to the key, because even if everything scales up by 8%, the gear you got by running it twice earlier offsets the scaling already. And at this point the mechanics aren't new, and you're tired of them.

Now, bring the Timer back into this:
Suddenly, there's a rush to it (by rush i don't mean go-go-go, but instead an adrenaline hit), a sense of "I gotta get this right", a sense of challenge with the same mechanics that you need to figure out a way to be MORE efficient at. You need to do what you had done before, but better, and maybe in a different way, to complete this new challenge. At some point, with enough gear, it would go back to feeling like how i described it in the para above, but then you add 1-2 keystone levels to it, and suddenly new challenges arise and you need to find new ways to deal with them once again.

The timer is the whole reason why the dungeon strats in a + 5 , +10, +15 and +20 are so different. The timer makes it fresh at each new tier. Take that away, and you have plain old dungeons, where affixes are just mechanics that you deal with anyway.

You folks just have to understand this concept. It is the sole reason why there's never going to be an untimed version of M+ that's separate from the timed one. You can quote me on that if it ever turns out to be wrong in the future, idm.

- - - Updated - - -

The fact that you "can" make your own group doesn't deny that some classes are at a disadvantage because of the timed nature of it. The classes aren't and shouldn't be designed around trying to move through an entire instance as fast as possible. At least that's my opinion

With that said, it's not an excuse. It was part of a counter-argument to potis' argument that 4 tanks potentially being viable in an untimed Mythic+ would be unfair towards classes with no tank spec. I also never mentioned it's a problem that applies to me.



I never said you can complete it, I've said the game mechanics do not prevent you from trying. Whether or not it is possible to complete it will depend on how the dungeons are developed and tuned, and on the players of course. Just like in raids, where there is no such instance timer, and the Holy Trinity core is just fine.



The argument is that an untimed key mode, where you don't need to race against a clock and can still progress to higher levels of M+, would just be a significantly more appealing activity to a number of people. That's all.



Except this is a game, not a job
One group performing better than another just means they are better. It doesn't necessarily mean that the worse group isn't good enough.

Or is Method a bad guild because they take hundreds of attempts to kill a Mythic raid boss?

I also never said that untimed M+ rewards need to be necessarily on par with timed M+ rewards. It is entirely a possibility that untimed M+ rewards lower ilvl at a slower rate.



Except M+ isn't about how fast you can kill a dungeon boss, it's about how fast you can go through an entire instance, which is a very different thing.



Disagree. The timer is part of the challenge, but it doesn't need to be. The content scales, therefore no matter how much time you have available you will reach a breaking point where you simply are not able to get past a boss or a pack of mobs until you get better and/or get more gear.

I'm not saying M+ needs to do anything. I'm saying dungeons can be hard without the timer, and that difficulty can cater to casuals and overall a bigger group of people than timed M+ does.

Wanting an untimed version of M+ has nothing to do with skill or lack of thereof, or with being casual or hardcore. It's about a personal preference on what type of difficulty and gameplay to engage with.



Players abandoned dungeons because the gear and challenge they presented stopped being relevant as their characters got more powerful because the dungeons did not scale. It had nothing to do with them having timers or not.

I'm not a part of the target M+ audience, yes, that is the point. That one simple alternate version of M+ could increase the target audience to me and potentially many others.

It's like saying gluten-free bread shouldn't be invented because bread is just not intended for people who can't have gluten.



I have a better idea, we make M+ untimed, and you can open a stopwatch app and time your own runs.



What's the problem with having a "free shot" at loot? It's still a shot, if you can't complete the harder dungeon you won't get the better loot. You're not getting loot for free just because you can take your time with it.

It's nothing like asking Mythic bosses to have no enrage timer, because we're talking about timing an entire instance, not a single fight. Untimed M+ bosses can still have enrage timers if needed be.

Wow, I must say, just going through the sum total of responses in your post, the feeling of entitlement in you is quite high. Sorry, While I could go and refute every single point you made, It would be in vain because your sense of entitlement will just try to argue it even if it makes no logical sense. I'm going to stick with my previous response to your post and I suggest you read through my response to Neenaw if you want to know why my stance is what it is and why yours makes no logical sense from a game designer's standpoint.
If you still want me to respond to each point you made in this response though, just let me know and i'll do so when I get home from work cuz dayum, it's gonna take a while to put down in words what's going through my mind when I read your post.

[Kolvarg]

Take that away, and you have plain old dungeons, where affixes are just mechanics that you deal with anyway.

You folks just have to understand this concept. It is the sole reason why there's never going to be an untimed version of M+ that's separate from the timed one. You can quote me on that if it ever turns out to be wrong in the future, idm.

I mean, in Shadowlands they're already adding Torghast which as far as I remember will scale in difficulty but will not be timed. Applying that to dungeons in general (without the scaling of 1 to 5 players) wouldn't be that much of a reach.

In essence what you are saying there is "This is how I experience this. If you don't experience it the same way, you are wrong". And that's just straight bullshit.

Some people want challenging dungeons but don't like the rush of a speedrun, even if for other people that rush does provide nuance and different metas.
And including an untimed Mythic+ mode in the game in no way removes the timed mode or stops you from enjoying it in whatever way you want.

You need to understand that people have different tastes and want different things than you, and they are not wrong for it, nor "entitled".

Wow, I must say, just going through the sum total of responses in your post, the feeling of entitlement in you is quite high. Sorry, While I could go and refute every single point you made, It would be in vain because your sense of entitlement will just try to argue it even if it makes no logical sense. I'm going to stick with my previous response to your post and I suggest you read through my response to Neenaw if you want to know why my stance is what it is and why yours makes no logical sense from a game designer's standpoint.
If you still want me to respond to each point you made in this response though, just let me know and i'll do so when I get home from work cuz dayum, it's gonna take a while to put down in words what's going through my mind when I read your post.

What exactly about what I said is based on entitlement? I literally said, multiple times by now, that nothing "needs" to change. How is suggesting an additional game mode entitlement?

Meanwhile you are literally defending that an optional mode that other people want should not be added to the game because, in essence, you don't like it?

I won't decide for you whether you should or not reply to the points I've made. I've read your posts and replied to them in a way that makes logical sense to me, do with that what you will.

[reauxmont]

You would get no joy running it a third time.
If you were to add a keystone level to it, you would add nothing new to the key, because even if everything scales up by 8%, the gear you got by running it twice earlier offsets the scaling already. And at this point the mechanics aren't new, and you're tired of them.

You think you do, but you don't, amirite?

[Zarvel]

You think you do, but you don't, amirite?

I hope for your sake that this wasn't sarcasm aimed at my post. Cuz if you meant it in the context of Classic, you can see how it's already dying down.
Otherwise, i don't get the context behind your response. Care to explain?

- - - Updated - - -

What exactly about what I said is based on entitlement? I literally said, multiple times by now, that nothing "needs" to change. How is suggesting an additional game mode entitlement?

Meanwhile you are literally defending that an optional mode that other people want should not be added to the game because, in essence, you don't like it?

In response to the quoted bit - Adding that new mode does not magically mean it doesn't show up for those who are already running M+ timed. You're essentially asking to add a game breaking loot pinata for folks who can make 200% use of it in the competitive side. This is still a game that despises exploits.
Not to mention M+ as it is and an extra untimed M+ would just rain loot on everyone who can make use of both.
You keep forgetting, you won't be the only ones that can make use of the system. It will be available to everyone, game-wide. Casual or Harcore or otherwise, with no way to restrict one type of player from entering or exploiting it.
What you're asking for will allow for M+20 boosts, if not higher. This game should not head in that direction at any cost.

I'll get back to the rest of your comment and the previous post when I head home, as you can see, just those 2 sentences alone spurred a 6 line response.

[Jujudrood]

There's merits to both sides.
With the timer, there's an extra layer of difficulty, and it's not "artificial", no matter how you want to argue it.
Why? It adds another layer of strategy, requires more on the fly coordination/adjustments/etc.
You can't contemplate each pat, take time marking, waiting for your mage to finish texting someone so they sheep, then sheep one by one and slowly bleed the mobs down.

But, it also does promote the behavior of "gogogogo", which can also be viewed as "toxic".
This is especially prevalent with those who don't wish to "wait" for healers to get mana, or DPS who don't understand their role is damage, not pulling (you know, the same ol' complaints throughout the history of WoW, but on a small timer).

The easy solution is to have both options.
With current day timed, should you complete on time, you conquered:
- The timer
- The affixes
- The mobs/bosses
You get more gear, a shiny new key of 1 or more levels higher, and you go about your day.

Have a second option, a little checkbox for "untimed".
The dungeon is then a challenge of:
- The affixes
- The mobs/bosses
Without the timer, there is one less layer, so your rewards, should you simply finish the dungeon, would be the same as if you do not make it on time in a Timed run today.
The difference? The key only downgrades should you not complete by the next daily reset, with the caveat that it will only ever increase by +1 with a completed run.

Now, some think "well, this particular dungeon sucks with these affixes, so i'll just switch to untimed for this one just to get through it and see where i land on the other side".
Ok, so then have two key settings, a level for Timed and a level for Untimed.
You want to push timed? Gotta run timed all the way up from the start.
Don't give a shit about the timer? Run untimed, mosey along at your own pace, do as you wish and enjoy climbing the + ladder one rung at a time.

Timed would still be better; it would yield greater results/rewards both on a per-run basis as well as a runs-per-day basis.
Untimed would just basically prevent keys from dropping for groups who don't care to be rushed/want the extra layer of challenge, so they can play as they see fit.

Win/Win for all who want to partake.

[Steelcryo]

1) If you dont make the timer at any level, yes you have failed. Life is made of success and failure. Just keep practicing and level up the knowledge of the dungeons you want, and with time, you'll find yourself +1 / +2 /+3 with relative ease.

The problem is, people don't want to put in the work, or worse, reduce the expectations because of...feelings.

You've missed the point though, it's not about getting better. I've done high level keys in time, that isn't the point or the problem. The problem is the timer being there when players don't want it. Yes you can create a group that agrees to go slow and ignore the timer, but that doesn't solve the problem the timer is still there ticking down making people feel bad when it runs out. It's a psychology thing, plain and simple.

Sometimes people want to just go slow to chill out and have fun or sometimes they just want to teach a new player what to do without rushing through. There's loads of reasons to not beat the timer other than "being bad". Having the option to run it without a timer is just a QoL that takes nothing away from anyone, but adds a lot for many.

I know the idea of not being the absolute best and having to show off "leet skillz" on every run might be a completely alien concept to some elitist players, but there's a large majority of players that aren't like that...

[pewpmeiser]

the pressure of the timer is what makes the reward satisfying, taking that away would make m+ extremely dumb

[Kolvarg]

You're essentially asking to add a game breaking loot pinata for folks who can make 200% use of it in the competitive side. This is still a game that despises exploits.
Not to mention M+ as it is and an extra untimed M+ would just rain loot on everyone who can make use of both.

There are so many things in the game that can be considered a "loot pinata". Why are you assuming this one will be necessarily game breaking when the details of how it would work are not set in stone?

At the worst case, untimed Mythic + would reward equivalent gear to timed Mythic+ but at a much slower pace. Meaning, for the competitive side it would never be more efficient to run the dungeons untimed.

But it can just as much simply be considered an easier difficulty and therefore reward weaker loot. Just like there's Heroic and Normal and LFR raiding, despite pretty much all of them being "loot pinatas" for Mythic raiders.

[reauxmont]

I hope for your sake that this wasn't sarcasm aimed at my post. Cuz if you meant it in the context of Classic, you can see how it's already dying down.
Otherwise, i don't get the context behind your response. Care to explain?

Sure! I don't think it's your place to decide what's enjoyable content for every player of WoW, that's all.

[Elsif]

> Is there any chance we could removed ALL mechanics from raid boss fights?

Just have a room with a boss that doesn't move and doesn't attack! Problem solved!

[FelPlague]

I find it hilarious people are still discussing this. Seriously? "I don't like timer. If you can do it you should be allowed there shouldn't be a timer!"

1. Then do it, your key won't upgrade, but you still get gear.
2. If you could just complete m+ and get gear and upgrade your key, that would ruin the game. Raiding would be pointless, cause raiding also has timers, each boss has an enrage, and so you need to do enough DPS, or else you will wipe, and there is no garuntee on raid bosses. It's why M+ is already taking over cause at the end of the day, you enter a 15+ as long as you have time. You will eventually do it, may need to use hero every few packs. But you will do it. But a raid you can't do that. You cant do 1 phase of the boss then stop to let yourself recover your cooldowns, and wait for hero again.


Everything has timers, cause if it didn't. The game would be far too easy. And no. Stop this bullshit of "something can be difficult without timers!" No not true at all. There is special occurences where there is no timer, but then there is an artificial one. Usually called a resource timer. Either you will run out of recourses, like healer mana, or sanity bar. Or the enemy will get too powerful. These ways can be adjusted, by bringing more people, or having special items to add time. But you will run out, you have limited time, even if you can adjust it.


Grow up people, we do not live in a world where time does not exist, everything has timers.

[Zarvel]

There's merits to both sides.
With the timer, there's an extra layer of difficulty, and it's not "artificial", no matter how you want to argue it.
Why? It adds another layer of strategy, requires more on the fly coordination/adjustments/etc.
You can't contemplate each pat, take time marking, waiting for your mage to finish texting someone so they sheep, then sheep one by one and slowly bleed the mobs down.

But, it also does promote the behavior of "gogogogo", which can also be viewed as "toxic".
This is especially prevalent with those who don't wish to "wait" for healers to get mana, or DPS who don't understand their role is damage, not pulling (you know, the same ol' complaints throughout the history of WoW, but on a small timer).

The easy solution is to have both options.
With current day timed, should you complete on time, you conquered:
- The timer
- The affixes
- The mobs/bosses
You get more gear, a shiny new key of 1 or more levels higher, and you go about your day.

Have a second option, a little checkbox for "untimed".
The dungeon is then a challenge of:
- The affixes
- The mobs/bosses
Without the timer, there is one less layer, so your rewards, should you simply finish the dungeon, would be the same as if you do not make it on time in a Timed run today.
The difference? The key only downgrades should you not complete by the next daily reset, with the caveat that it will only ever increase by +1 with a completed run.

Now, some think "well, this particular dungeon sucks with these affixes, so i'll just switch to untimed for this one just to get through it and see where i land on the other side".
Ok, so then have two key settings, a level for Timed and a level for Untimed.
You want to push timed? Gotta run timed all the way up from the start.
Don't give a shit about the timer? Run untimed, mosey along at your own pace, do as you wish and enjoy climbing the + ladder one rung at a time.

Timed would still be better; it would yield greater results/rewards both on a per-run basis as well as a runs-per-day basis.
Untimed would just basically prevent keys from dropping for groups who don't care to be rushed/want the extra layer of challenge, so they can play as they see fit.

Win/Win for all who want to partake.

Your "suggestion" as you put it, was already part of the initial design of M+. In legion, in season 1, any keys you failed to do, you could repeat on the same key level, with the caveat being that you wouldn't get any loot at the end. What was the outcome of this? Well, people just abandoned keys altogether and just let them sit because if you wanted to change what dungeon the key was, you HAD to complete it. This was during the time of tyrannical Hyrja, when you could be 1 shot through no fault of your own even on a +13. Some keys were dead keys, and this caused folks to have to find pug keys so they could complete their weekly 15.
Blizzard changed it so if you fail or decide to quit your key, it downgrades a level since then and still gives you loot because they wanted players keys to always be useful. Keys went from being unusable to being always usable based on that change alone.

So once again, No. None of these "suggestions" folks on here are giving work. We've already gone though all of those from legion, up until now. Unless you come up with something drastically new, consider it already been tried and tested by Blizzard.

- - - Updated - - -

There are so many things in the game that can be considered a "loot pinata". Why are you assuming this one will be necessarily game breaking when the details of how it would work are not set in stone?

At the worst case, untimed Mythic + would reward equivalent gear to timed Mythic+ but at a much slower pace. Meaning, for the competitive side it would never be more efficient to run the dungeons untimed.

But it can just as much simply be considered an easier difficulty and therefore reward weaker loot. Just like there's Heroic and Normal and LFR raiding, despite pretty much all of them being "loot pinatas" for Mythic raiders.

LMAO. Heroic and Mythic are NOT loot pinatas for mythic raiders because they have no need of loot from those difficulties. Are you that daft?
Only reason those folks ran content 1 tier below that they were geared for was Titanforging and now Corruption. If those systems didn't exist, which they won't in Shadowlands, then those people only stick to Mythic going forward.
Geez man, at this point, I'm starting to think you're just internet warrioring this thing and hoping to go out with a fight, but in reality you're like a level 1 orc peon in a level 60 raid with all that lack of logic. Please stop.

[Kolvarg]

But a raid you can't do that. You cant do 1 phase of the boss then stop to let yourself recover your cooldowns, and wait for hero again.

In raiding you can take as long as you want in between bosses and trash packs. There are timers within each fight, but there is not an instance-wide timer. You don't have to complete the entirety of the raid within X hours or instead be punished.

And you can fail as many times as you want at a raid boss and go back to trying it again, you don't need to start the whole raid instance from scratch.

The game would be far too easy.

Who are you to decide exactly how hard or easy the game should be for everyone else?

[Zarvel]

Sure! I don't think it's your place to decide what's enjoyable content for every player of WoW, that's all.

Yes because I am currently "deciding" what's enjoyable in the game. lmao.
All i'm doing in this thread is show you the flaws in the logic of posters like you. Thanks for adding to my list of examples. I decide what blizzard considers enjoyable, hahaha.

This is why I don't want blizzard listening to this crowd. You guys don't always know what you're talking about.

[Kolvarg]

LMAO.

A loot pinata is a loot pinata regardless of whether you actually want that loot. Who's to say that timed M+ players and Mythic raiders would have any need for the loot of an untimed M+ difficulty?

But yea, keep falling down to insults when you are unable to provide a coherent counter-argument. That will prove me wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes because I am currently "deciding" what's enjoyable in the game. lmao.

You literally stated how something is supposed to be experienced by everyone else:

Suddenly, there's a rush to it (by rush i don't mean go-go-go, but instead an adrenaline hit), a sense of "I gotta get this right", a sense of challenge with the same mechanics that you need to figure out a way to be MORE efficient at.

When people are telling you to the face that that is not their experience at all. Call it what you want, but your behavior in this thread in general has been coming out as quite arrogant and self-absorbed.

[Zarvel]

In raiding you can take as long as you want in between bosses and trash packs. There are timers within each fight, but there is not an instance-wide timer. You don't have to complete the entirety of the raid within X hours or instead be punished.

And you can fail as many times as you want at a raid boss and go back to trying it again, you don't need to start the whole raid instance from scratch.



Who are you to decide exactly how hard or easy the game should be for everyone else?

This is rare, I'm usually on the opposite side of Felplague on threads, but I'll defend him/her on this one.
Felplague is not deciding on what should be hard or easy for people in the game. There are already set concepts of hard and easy in the game based on Math calculations. That's how game design is done. You look at the tuning of everything. You look at the concept of Effort Vs Reward, which is a core pillar of game mechanics and game systems design.
Games are made in the developer's perspective to give players a certain level of challenge, excitement and at times a way to lose themselves in.
For Blizzard, and specifically for WoW, their idea with WoW is to provide a few aspects of content that you can do at varying levels, but none of them are guaranteed in terms of being able to complete them. I pay a sub fee just like ALL mythic raiders, but do i expect I SHOULD receive mythic rewards for that reason alone? No.
It's a game. It has gameplay modes and mechanics. My objective, solely, should be to play the game and try to beat it. In the end, that's what all games are, even minecraft. Minecraft could've just been a Daytime-only game, where you could build all you want and gather as many resources as you want, etc. but they added the aspect of Night time into it didn't they? Surely there are players in there that have been crying out loud for a daytime only version, but they never budged, why? Because in that developer's eyes, there needs to be some sort of challenge, otherwise they failed as designers and just created a simulator, which anybody can do.
It's the same for WoW devs. They have an idea of what easy vs hard is. In their philosophy, what you're asking for will never exist.

It's that simple. I understood that, it's time for you to get with the times too.

[Monolithi]

It's not that it's not raiding but the gear requirements are lower and it's easier to get gear that will unlock the slot for trading from other sources when you raid heroic. That's the difference. Also, if it's not expected by the guild for people to run their weekly m+ there's nothing stopping people from running it if they want to. If the raiders are expected to do their weekly m+ it's another story if you still don't want to do it. In the former scenario, some people put extra effort while in the latter those who don't do m+ put in less effort than the minimum required.

True, if raiders are expected to do, they really should or they are in wrong guild.

[CrawlFromThePit]

I mean, in Shadowlands they're already adding Torghast which as far as I remember will scale in difficulty but will not be timed. Applying that to dungeons in general (without the scaling of 1 to 5 players) wouldn't be that much of a reach.

In essence what you are saying there is "This is how I experience this. If you don't experience it the same way, you are wrong". And that's just straight bullshit.

Some people want challenging dungeons but don't like the rush of a speedrun, even if for other people that rush does provide nuance and different metas.
And including an untimed Mythic+ mode in the game in no way removes the timed mode or stops you from enjoying it in whatever way you want.

You need to understand that people have different tastes and want different things than you, and they are not wrong for it, nor "entitled".



What exactly about what I said is based on entitlement? I literally said, multiple times by now, that nothing "needs" to change. How is suggesting an additional game mode entitlement?

Meanwhile you are literally defending that an optional mode that other people want should not be added to the game because, in essence, you don't like it?

I won't decide for you whether you should or not reply to the points I've made. I've read your posts and replied to them in a way that makes logical sense to me, do with that what you will.

I ran an unhealthy amount of 5man content, we're talking well over 1000 runs, in every xpack, in every roles but mostly tanks.

I have NEVER seen not even once, a group where the majority of people wanted to slow down and take their time looking at the scenery or sitting there or seriously I don't know what other kind of time wasting activities you want to do in a dungeon. And I'm talking before M+ existed. People don't want to take more time than necessary to run a dungeon, that's just an insanely silly thing to beg for.

Before timers existed people still wanted to clear dungeons fast, doing things efficiently, quick, is profitable, both in-game and real life. So even if you get that super challenging but no timer mode, people are still gonna want to do it fast because being slow sucks. It just simply fucking sucks, it's not even subjective at this point why the hell would you want to STOP PLAYING AND DO NOTHING TO SLOW THINGS DOWN because that's what "taking your time" inevitably comes down to. If you're not pulling and killing, it means you're not doing anything (aka not playing) because there's nothing else to do in a dungeon other than pulling and killing.

I'm asking this question seriously: what are, in details, the actions you want to do as a player in a dungeon that requires slow gameplay pacing?

And let me tell you this before you reply. The stress caused by a timer is a psychological issue that most people are not affected by, it's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with you. You can get rid of that problem by working on yourself, you don't need the game to be changed. I'm not saying this as an insult, it's a legit psychological issue most likely related to Chronophobia (fear of time) which can manifest itself from things like timers, seeing time passing by, growing old, etc, or Atychiphobia (fear of failure) when you consider the timer running out to be your failure.

You may not be directly or even consciously asking for it but wanting runs with no timer is indicative of "looking for a safe space" for lack of better words, I'm not trying to make a reference to leftism and all that shit but I mean you search for comfort instead of "facing your fears".

Mechanically speaking dungeons (and raids and other content or game modes or even other games) always revolve around doing things quickly, the timer is just a measuring stick to determine different levels of rewards at the end of a run, just like you would get different scores in other games after a mission or something. There never was any incentive in the game to make people want to waste time, that is false in every imaginable levels, we even want to level fast.

If you have problem timing keys and bring out the excuse of "I wanna take my time" then that's a different issue. The concept of "but I want to take my time" is misleading, the keyword is not "time", it's "my", your time is not the same as other people's time, your time is defined by what you are able to do and maybe these capacities are not good enough past a certain level. I mean not everyone can do 25's all the time, right? We all have our limits, play within yours, you get the rewards you deserve for that level and that's it, you're not allowed to complain or ask for more, your first task is to get better or solve your mental blockings in regards to timers. The game and the devs are not here to create tailor made game modes for every type of disabilities out there, they make one product, if you like it then play it, if you don't then stop using it.

The realities of game design in relation to gameplay (specifically loot progression) are this:
If they make a new game mode without timer it either has to give weaker rewards which means most people won't participate or it will be seen as alt catch up mechanic.
If this new game mode gives equivalent reward but has no timer, it needs to be so hard that in reality if you're not able to make the timer in M+ you also won't be good enough to clear that new game mode and therefore get no reward from it. This would also change the entire progression system of the game since we would be talking about basically 5man raid at this point, so all raiding has to be tweaked in consideration. That's a lot of work for a company already struggling, all that just to please people with a fear of timer? Why should Blizzard make efforts and not you? No I'm serious, why should you not make any effort?
Another option is making this new challenging-but-no-timer game mode give the best loot but this means it's the new end game, what happens with raiding and M+? Steps in progression? In this case you're fucked cuz you would need to do the content you don't like in order to reach the content you like. Deleted from the game? This is a development headache and most likely would not end well. Make the new mode scale? Again that's asking for M+ to be deleted and completely ignores the core concept that this new game mode should be challenging.

TLDR The vast majority of players enjoy being efficient, which means clearing runs quick and this has been the case since vanilla. Adding a timer changes nothing to the game mechanically and any issues you have with it is psychological, therefore not Blizzard's responsibility and you can fix it yourself.