Covenants will ruin Shadowlands.

[Hitei]

Again, this is a perspective issue. Is it shitty to expect everyone to show up, fully optimized, geared, with pots, enchants, food, etc? To me that's NORMAL.

I fully understand that there's super-casual approaches to the game. Where this sort of thing literally doesn't matter. But that's not EVERYONE. And the claim that people who don't share your view of playing as being "shitty" is just wrong. It's xenophobic and narrow minded to call someone "shitty" because they don't play the same way you think they should. It's everything that's wrong with this game.

I don't know. What does fully optimized mean to you? Do you expect people to only show up as the most optimal class for that tier and most optimal race for that class? Because those are going to do a hell of a lot more for your raid than covenant active abilities. And yes, I would consider it a pretty shitty attitude to have if, again, you aren't in that very specific level of competition that warrants that amount of consideration. But that level of optimization is very clearly NOT "normal" It isn't an issue of """super-casual""", that is a level that is not even common amongst most guilds doing mythic.

It's xenophobic and narrow minded to call someone "shitty" because they don't play the same way you think they should. It's everything that's wrong with this game.

I don't think people are shitty for being optimized. I think a lot of ""competitive"" people are shitty for exactly the reason you stated. They attempt to force a specific way of playing and shun any alternative, even when the difference between the two playstyles is completely negligible. I'm curious how you can claim it's everything wrong with the game and then still believe that people who stop having fun because someone in their group chose a 2% less effective covenant (which is 2% more effective in some other situation) is not being a shitty person.

[Eurhetemec]

I never said that people who disagree with me are super-casual.

You went straight from discussing your "Cargo Cultist" playstyle to implying Hitei was "super-casual". Yeah that's pretty much calling everyone who disagrees with you "super-casual".

[Sithalos]

I will say that skimming through this thread has been at least mildly entertaining.

From the OP who made his account a month ago, raging at anyone who disagrees with his stupid opinion, to the random off-topic arguments that other people are having for seemingly no reason.

All in all, pretty good read.

[Mightytasty]

I agree with OP. The Blizzcon version of covenants would be an unmitigated disaster. Method, for example, is already leveling 4 characters OF EACH CLASS in preparation for it. That's scary as fuck.

They NEED to be cosmetic only. Blizzard needs to hear this feedback NOW because nothing will be changed once Beta hits (see: BFA).

[formerShandalay]

I agree with OP. The Blizzcon version of covenants would be an unmitigated disaster. Method, for example, is already leveling 4 characters OF EACH CLASS in preparation for it. That's scary as fuck.

They NEED to be cosmetic only. Blizzard needs to hear this feedback NOW because nothing will be changed once Beta hits (see: BFA).

I don't think Method is a good example here, because they always keep several classes up to speed in case a class gets nerfed or buffed.

[SirCowdog]

I don't know. What does fully optimized mean to you?

I think a more important question would be "What does fully optimized mean to the people you play with?".

I don't think people are shitty for being optimized. I think a lot of ""competitive"" people are shitty for exactly the reason you stated. They attempt to force a specific way of playing and shun any alternative, even when the difference between the two playstyles is completely negligible. I'm curious how you can claim it's everything wrong with the game and then still believe that people who stop having fun because someone in their group chose a 2% less effective covenant (which is 2% more effective in some other situation) is not being a shitty person.

If you don't like having to deal with "competitive" people, then don't play or associate with them. However, you also don't get to call them shitty because you don't like how they play(unless they're being ToS-breaking, or actively rude and offensive in a general social sense).

If you have a situation where someone doesn't like the choices you've made on your character, even if it's only 2%, then deal with it. Find players more to your liking. But don't call them "Shitty people" or "shitty players".

Granted, the people who are also asking you to step up and get that 2% should also be civil about it as well. There's no cause to be rude to someone because they aren't "optimized". Just let them know you're looking for performance, and if they can't meet that standards, then the group isn't for them.

This is what I meant by "everything wrong with the game". The rampant tribalism where anyone who doesn't immediately agree and conform is viewed as second class. or the enemy, or "bad".

[Doffen]

I will say that skimming through this thread has been at least mildly entertaining.

From the OP who made his account a month ago, raging at anyone who disagrees with his stupid opinion, to the random off-topic arguments that other people are having for seemingly no reason.

All in all, pretty good read.

What about me and Kyphael's contribution to this thread regarding cosmetics being important? Good? Bad? So and so? Rate it sir!

[tru]

Looks lame. I'm sure it will get the genuine blizzard turd polish. Don't need to see any more or what others classes get. Looking at dks it's just another talent tree people will want to take what they like but end up taking the best for whatever and 2 of them will never get touched. It's a stupid system. They should have just done a new talent tree least we know that gets slightly worked on for a new xpac this system is gonna suck they gonna force it down our throats and going to 10.0 we still won't have anything new carrying over we reset to the same shit. Oh want talents? Here you can pick one of 4 tied to our new engaging system... GTFO.

And all the other big mmo makers are rejoicing and thanking you for your subs you lost lol.

[Hitei]

If you don't like having to deal with "competitive" people, then don't play or associate with them. However, you also don't get to call them shitty because you don't like how they play(unless they're being ToS-breaking, or actively rude and offensive in a general social sense).

If you have a situation where someone doesn't like the choices you've made on your character, even if it's only 2%, then deal with it. Find players more to your liking. But don't call them "Shitty people" or "shitty players".

Again, it has nothing to do with how they play, it is about a misplaced attitude. There is nothing wrong with Metod's strategy for optimizing during a world first race. There is something very laughable about people trying to replicate that same strategy in low end mythic raids or even heroics/normals. If someone doesn't like the choices I made on my character and it's 2% and we are wiping because there are retards in the range group who will not or are slow at switching to adds, or because people aren't positioning, they are shitty players/people. I don't know what to tell you. Like I said, if you are wiping 49 times at 0.1% boss hp, go for it. Whine about that covenant ability. But if you are wiping at 40%, your raid is doing something wrong. The raid. Not some player who could have done a couple percent more that pull, and whining about that 0.1% raid DPS instead of trying to figure out what is actually wrong and stopping progression is shitty. Because it isn't doing anything of value, it's venting frustration at a non-issue. It's coming home to your house being robbed and ransacked and then yelling at your kid because they spilled a glass of juice on the floor.

I would rather they keep meaningful power choices in the game, and people overly concerned with optimization deal with it than all choice be cosmetic for the same of appeasing people for whom those slight power differences are not meaningful.

[Alkhan]

If 1 is for pvp and you can only have/belong to 1 then pvp players will have a hard time getting into mythic+/random raid groups. Better get used asap to making your own groups.

[EyeOculus]

A friendly reminder. Unsub the subscription and de-install WoW if you don't agree with what Blizzard does. It's free to unsub.

Imagine that! People hate and only complain about the game and still pay monthly to play it. kek

[SirCowdog]

A There is something very laughable about people trying to replicate that same strategy in low end mythic raids or even heroics/normals.

Why? I mean, honestly, if that's how they want to play, and they find people who also want that, why does it matter?

I don't know what to tell you.

I do: Find another group of players more to your liking. If you find it "laughable", then go play with people more aligned with your opinions instead of calling those people "shitty players".

I would rather they keep meaningful power choices in the game, and people overly concerned with optimization deal with it than all choice be cosmetic for the same of appeasing people for whom those slight power differences are not meaningful.

I agree with that. But that's a separate issue that I mentioned with SoulSoBreezy. I never suggested all choices be cosmetic. But it's probably a better solution than only one choice being obviously, numerically, mathematically better than all the others. Ideally all choices should have their own merits. But so far Blizzard has seemingly been unable to attain that level of balance.

[Seranthor]

.

Clearly you have some inside information that you have chosen not to share with the rest of us in making your pronouncements... Are you planning on keeping that to yourself, or sharing with the rest of us?

- - - Updated - - -

That's why there should be zero player power tied to the system.

It should be a purely cosmetic/story choice.


As a Death Knight I obviously want to pick the death themed Covenant because the Armor looks sick and it will fit a DK story wise.

But what happens when the Fae fairy faction ends up being 20% dps over? Even as a "casual" Heroic raider I will feel like I want to switch.

Choices have consequences, any game developer knows that.

- - - Updated - - -

.

Liar you say, what are you planning on doing about it? That's right, you are still going to be paying Blizzard to play their game.

[Kyphael]

And that's all that matters!

Skeleton spider wings back-mog for my Death Knight baby!



Look at that and tell me it doesn't look awesome!

It is! Chained candled tombstone for my DK here, spider legs for the rogue, angel wings for paladin and moth wings for druid! Matching classes to Covenants will be the main sell for this expansion for me.

[Hitei]

I do: Find another group of players more to your liking. If you find it "laughable", then go play with people more aligned with your opinions instead of calling those people "shitty players".

I just do both.

I agree with that. But that's a separate issue that I mentioned with SoulSoBreezy. I never suggested all choices be cosmetic. But it's probably a better solution than only one choice being obviously, numerically, mathematically better than all the others. Ideally all choices should have their own merits. But so far Blizzard has seemingly been unable to attain that level of balance.

I mean we have two sets. Both have a similar structure but which covenant is which varies by class.

1 ST power
1 AoE power
1 hybrid AoE/buff power
1 more PvP oriented/situational power.

Hybrid aside (will likely come down to individual classes), the other three have clear situational merits. In PvP that gives you a clear choice between the PvP utility power and the ST for burst. In PvE you have the choice of specializing in ST or AoE at minimum.

[styil]

The difference in convenant abilities will probably within a few percent of each other, not enough to QQ about, and nothing anyone but the super hardcore guilds will give a shit about.

Calm down.

After coming off this current patch where we've had to have 50% nerfs to corruption effects, well after the patch was live and everyone had invested into the system, can you really say that with any confidence?

[Adam Jensen]

The mental gymnastics going on here is honestly astounding. We're done.

Hilarious coming from the guy who's set in his opinion in stone for stuff we have little knowledge of.

From the guy who's been using ad hominen (attacking a dude's YT channel? Really?), this statement is kinda rich.

I guess I'm a fanboi though for not automatically hating a game that's not even in alpha yet . . . makes me wonder though . . . why do people who think this game is so goddamn miserable still play it?

[Doffen]

It is! Chained candled tombstone for my DK here, spider legs for the rogue, angel wings for paladin and moth wings for druid! Matching classes to Covenants will be the main sell for this expansion for me.

Good plan! I am leveling another DK atm to have as main. But i have a DK at 120 from before, (its Horde) and since the tombstone is awesome as well I need to have both DKs at max in SL! :P

I am going to try to have Covenants that fits either race or class, or both.

For me it will be like this, not necessarily after cloak transmog
Necrolord: Velf DK Main (deffo cloak that drives this decision!)
Venthyr: Belf DK Alt, Velf Mage, Velf Rogue(maybe change to your choice on that)
Bastion: Lightforged Holydin
Night Fae: Velf or Vulpera Hunter, Night Elf Demon Hunter LOL(DH wings+butterfly wings = magic)

Thats my plan for now. More chars to decide. Major expansion plan is to have 4 chars on each covenant, all the different armor set, 4 times 4.

Just to clarify, wowhead has tombstone for necrolord and bone legs for venthyr. But I cant see thats correct? I mean its a win win for me if the bone leg one is Venthyr when I like them the most overall, but the tombstone is so venthyrish and I see people point out on wowhead and other pages that they are indeed wrong. But I can't really confirm.

[Revamp Man]

Unless Blizzard plans to overhaul the system and release Shadowlands in 2022, what you see is generally what you get.

WoD opening
Secondary stat flasks
Legion follower system
Garrison buildings
Azerite armor

All things that changed for better or worse between introduction and actual testing

Except for the flasks which imo were so much better than the boring basic bitch stats we get now

[october breeze]

The shear number of people defending this flawed design is astonishing. No wonder Blizz gets away with these craps. There is an addict fan base who Blizz can feed upon, no matter how shitty their products are.