Covenants will ruin Shadowlands.

[RoKPaNda]

Unless they've done a complete 180 on Covenant design since the reveal(lol nope). Then they will be the Azerite of Shadowlands.

We all know Blizzard is absolutely awful at balancing. Locking player power behind a choice that should be for cosmetic and story purposes is absolutely moronic.

There will be a BEST Covenant ability for your spec/class. It will be the best by a long margin. There will also be an absolute worst.

Then - nerfs and buffs will happen and the pendulum will swing again. But Blizzard has already said they're going to make it extremely hard to switch Covenants.

Why can't these morons open their eyes?

"By a long margin." - By like 2% and it'll only make any difference for those of us at the very top end. Woo. Tryhards will still say everything else is complete shit and feel all smug while pretending it matters.

[dreamdaddy]

"By a long margin." - By like 2% and it'll only make any difference for those of us at the very top end. Woo. Tryhards will still say everything else is complete shit and feel all smug while pretending it matters.

What was the difference between the best Azerite trait in 8.0 and the worst? For balance druids, it was ~12-18%.

What was the difference between the best legendary in 7.0 and the worst? For balance druids, it was about 20%.

These aren't tryhard-only mechanics and they're not minuscule, your class/spec is tuned around playing optimally.

[TheFirstOnes]

*Yawns*

Okay buddy.

[shade3891]

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So that I need to reroll after every single balancing change? No thanks

No so you can pick what you think is best/most fun and don't give it any afterthought

[MrLachyG]

The later (and most important) fourth and fifth ring traits, yes. But the system itself as well as three-ring gear was available early on, more or less. The main issue with Azerite Traits wasn't statistical inasmuch as it was the fact that Azerite Traits were boring as compared to the Artifact system in Legion. Some of the end-game traits were out of whack, of course; but most of those were fixed when Uldir gear came available and entered play. The system remained boring, though; which is why the Essence system was tacked on in 8.2 to give it an active ability and more impactful passives than the traits alone provided.

well they hopefully will have a significantly longer beta for Shadowlands than they had for BfA (3.5 months) so that should help with feedback

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Yes, and there was a huge imbalance between the best traits and the rest. Most specs still have a clear BiS but Blizz just started putting those BiS traits on most gear.

I have zero faith in covenants being balanced in 9.0 but they might be by 9.3!

that's the thing, can they change them that much? they don't want people re-rolling Covenants

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

There is always the best class, spec, talents and people still play what they like.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Exactly. And the same people who are shrieking in horror that something might sim 1% higher are, ironically, also the first to complain about anything they decide is "homogenization", and the first to tell you "WoW isn't an RPG any more!".

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Imagine believing that a covenant is going to give you a 20% DPS advantage. You'll be lucky if it's 2%. 20% is absolutely wild, outrageous fantasy.

if it has only near the numbers of 1 "good" corruption effect it will be more than 20% on some classes, i wont complain untill isee the numbers tho, but it can lead to a raid split aoe/st builds and beching on progress in my case.

for example:

we used 4x focusing iris on our mythic azshara progress and first kill, now imagine it beein locked behind the covenants... then you would have to specialize 4 people and leave them out in pure st dps checks, and then you have M+ ..

[Unholyground]

As long as they allow us to remove the socket items and we don't have to infinitely grind for new ones to replace the old ones like the nether light crucible all will be fine, if they make it grindy like it is now with an extra system it will hurt the game even more. they need to move away from this mobile reward system model they have been pushing, it is not good for the longevity of the game, less gear rewards makes it feel MORE rewarding when you get something good, the design they have now actually makes people burn out more and even devalues crafting professions as gear those professions make are easily replaced from world quests a couple of months into an expansion. That is just part of many issues but the most obvious ones.

[Eurhetemec]

if it has only near the numbers of 1 "good" corruption effect it will be more than 20% on some classes, i wont complain untill isee the numbers tho, but it can lead to a raid split aoe/st builds and beching on progress in my case.

for example:

we used 4x focusing iris on our mythic azshara progress and first kill, now imagine it beein locked behind the covenants...

I'm not sure how to tell you this, but trinkets and optional class abilities are different things.

When they start locking raid loot behind covenants this complaint will make sense.

Respect for waiting for numbers though!

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that's the thing, can they change them that much? they don't want people re-rolling Covenants

If they do change covenant abilities which are OP or underpowered, then people will change covenants.

If they don't, the same thing will happen.

Therefore logically they should change them. To achieve balance as best they can because people will change covenants either way.

[Adramalech]

Everything is subject to change, but I would be lying if I said I wasn't worried about this entire system.

The ability is bound to have a significant effect on your performance in your chosen role. This wouldn't be too bad, if they weren't planning on switching Covenants being a big investment, or if the balance between each one was within a margin that only matters to the abolute biggest of min-maxers.

I don't think the comparison to Azerite is fair. Azerite was still tied to gear, even if the balance between traits was so awful that a high item level piece could be trash vs a basic emissary reward depending on your spec and what traits each one has. As bad as it was, it was still a matter of gear: get gear with better traits. For that you just had to bash your head against whatever awarded gear with the traits you wanted. Covenants aren't like that at all. They're, as far as we know, entirely separate from gear, and your choice of Covenant is intended to be semi-permanent (as said above, they plan on switching Covenants being a big investment).

I'm not going to jump on a Blizzard hate train like most people like to do for almost any reason, but I don't really trust them to balance the Covenant bonuses at all.

Maybe it's not as exciting but I absolutely feel like all Covenant bonuses should be utility oriented. Make them all clones of each other with different names and visual effects if you must really have them affect performance in a significant way.

[RoKPaNda]

What was the difference between the best Azerite trait in 8.0 and the worst? For balance druids, it was ~12-18%.

What was the difference between the best legendary in 7.0 and the worst? For balance druids, it was about 20%.

These aren't tryhard-only mechanics and they're not minuscule, your class/spec is tuned around playing optimally.

Outlier. For the most part balance is pretty great and the difference between the best and second / third / fourth / etc is quite small. So yeah for the most part it's a tryhard only issue unless you're at the very top end. Comparing best to worst is a little disingenuous, and also dealing purely in percentages - 20% of a nominal amount of still a nominal amount.

[Relapses]

Man, am I tired of that "only the top 100" bullshit meme of people that get carried by their raid groups or don't participate in group content at all..

There is essentially 2 ways this can go, either the abilities will get neutered to the point where it doesn't matter in the background noise of the covenant passives, which is pretty much the situation we currently have where the 3rd tacked on system overshadows all others ingame up until this point of the expansion. Or they will break the game and cripple you in parts of the game outside of the niche you've choosen (so far it seems ST, AOE, PvP, generic buff from the 2 classes we've seen).


Either way, the parallels to the beginning of azerite armor are quite apparent and frankly I expect them to repeat the same mistakes; beause Blizzard. Pretty much the same sledgehammer tweaking Blizzard did up until now with Azerite traits. I mean just imagine the essence system without the chance to actually change the primary essence on the fly. By 9.3 we will probably have some passives from the Arbiter that will deal 30% of our damage.

Btw, I will pick the faction based on style/story myself, but I've also given up on pretty much any content outside of casual IDGAF-grouping - I just know that my take on this is not one from the perspective of good design - and just unsub when Blizzard inadvertedly fucks this up again :P.

Edit: This shit pretty much started with Legion when originally they'd expect you to only have 1 weapon skilled, which is a horrible and shit idea. In BfA they tried to lock you into traits by making respeccing of Azerite ludicrously expensive, taking all the fun out of the modular system since you couldn't experiment with it. That they still haven't given up on this forced lock-in bullshit in the third attempt is quite frankly just baffling to me.

Nothing Blizzard does will make you happy. You could open up MMO-C to a personalized letter addressed to you from J Allen Brack himself letting you know he read your feedback and he's instructed the team to design the game around your individual desires and you'd still have some petty cynical take on the outlook of the expansion. You aren't looking for Blizzard to change anything, you just want validation of your incredibly original opinion that everything Blizzard does sucks ass and will continue to suck ass until the end of time "because reasons."

As an aside, I really don't understand the point of holding an opinion like this. Do you really value meaningless internet high fives over constructive criticism?

[Uko]

*Trimmed for clarity*

I would rather they keep meaningful power choices in the game, and people overly concerned with optimization deal with it than all choice be cosmetic for the same of appeasing people for whom those slight power differences are not meaningful.

The covenants abilities are not going to be slight power differences. The swings in power are going to be ridiculous depending on if you have the good one versus the bad ones. Its like someone using a rank 1 crucible of flame versus someone with a rank 3 bis essence. Sure you can do content while just using the rank 1 essence but nobody will want you if you don't have the good ones in any meaningful or challenging content.

[Relapses]

The covenants abilities are not going to be slight power differences. The swings in power are going to be ridiculous depending on if you have the good one versus the bad ones. Its like someone using a rank 1 crucible of flame versus someone with a rank 3 bis essence. Sure you can do content while just using the rank 1 essence but nobody will want you if you don't have the good ones in any meaningful or challenging content.

Thanks for your 100% accurate take on a system that hasn't even been released for testing.

[MrLachyG]

I'm not sure how to tell you this, but trinkets and optional class abilities are different things.

When they start locking raid loot behind covenants this complaint will make sense.

Respect for waiting for numbers though!

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If they do change covenant abilities which are OP or underpowered, then people will change covenants.

If they don't, the same thing will happen.

Therefore logically they should change them. To achieve balance as best they can because people will change covenants either way.

yep, which hopefully they will do during the alpha/beta. can you imagine the shitshow if they do it at the start of the first mythic raid

[Feral Druid ist Op]

I'm not sure how to tell you this, but trinkets and optional class abilities are different things.

When they start locking raid loot behind covenants this complaint will make sense.

Respect for waiting for numbers though!

We have already seen pure st and aoe class talents and if the numbers are comparable to essences and corruptions then it will be as i said

for hc raiders or people playing 10+ keys, it will most likely not matter much but it will matter a lot to any serious player

let's wait for the beta and then watch the numbers.

[Dellis0991]

surprise, surprise, neither do you.

I don't either, you don't or the next person.

[Aucald]

I don't really understand the argument about how the Alpha/Beta process always amounts to nothing and how Blizzard never listens. They very obviously do listen - and as a Beta tester I've actually had developers respond to my feedback, and I've even seen implementation of a handful of my own ideas here and there through the history of expansions. This is not to say Blizzard will always implement player feedback - sometimes player feedback is absolute dreck (even when it's not just leveraging for class-specific buffs), and sometimes Blizzard thinks they know better (which is generally true, given that are the actual people coding the game) but get it wrong for both foreseen and unforeseen reasons.

Providing feedback is not a guarantee your or anyone else's feedback will be acted on - but providing no feedback ensures an existing mistake will likely go on to make it into the Live version of the game. It's unfortunate that Beta feedback about Azerite traits in BfA wasn't acted on, but that does happen - sometimes the developers gamble on something and lose, and sometimes they win. I remember back in the day there was a lot of negative player feedback about Transmogrification of all things - about how it would "devalue the aesthetic nature of gear and make the artists stop creating new and unique sets." Obviously that didn't come to pass, given that every expansion since has contained its own unique aesthetics in terms of armor and weapons.

[Relapses]

I don't really understand the argument about how the Alpha/Beta process always amounts to nothing and how Blizzard never listens. They very obviously do listen - and as a Beta tester I've actually had developers respond to my feedback, and I've even seen implementation of a handful of my own ideas here and there through the history of expansions. This is not to say Blizzard will always implement player feedback - sometimes player feedback is absolute dreck (even when it's not just leveraging for class-specific buffs), and sometimes Blizzard thinks they know better (which is generally true, given that are the actual people coding the game) but get it wrong for both foreseen and unforeseen reasons.

Providing feedback is not a guarantee your or anyone else's feedback will be acted on - but providing no feedback ensures an existing mistake will likely go on to make it into the Live version of the game. It's unfortunate that Beta feedback about Azerite traits in BfA wasn't acted on, but that does happen - sometimes the developers gamble on something and lose, and sometimes they win. I remember back in the day there was a lot of negative player feedback about Transmogrification of all things - about how it would "devalue the aesthetic nature of gear and make the artists stop creating new and unique sets." Obviously that didn't come to pass, given that every expansion since has contained its own unique aesthetics in terms of armor and weapons.

Because players love to have revisionist opinions about everything. Anything Blizzard changes is changed because of player outcry. Anything Blizzard doesn't change is because Blizzard is stubborn and doesn't listen to the "right" feedback.

It's an endless cycle of negativity that won't see an end until Blizzard just comes out and starts polling the community on which design choices should and shouldn't be followed through will. This is game design by democracy and I personally think it's the worst possible case scenario. But a part of me wants Blizzard to go through with it just so people on this forum can see exactly how terrible such an idea is.

[Uko]

Thanks for your 100% accurate take on a system that hasn't even been released for testing.

You do know a whole bunch of the abilities were announced and shown off so you can see for your self how balanced or unbalanced they are based on what was announced at blizzcon. What was shown to me shows there will be clear right choices and wrong choices for classes but feel free to believe just like the gcd changes and class pruning blizzard will do as good a job as those changes on balancing covenants.