9.0 General Discussion

[Monster Hunter]

No. WoW had completely shit netcode for the majority of Vanilla. People forget that. It was dreadful. And at various points in WoW's history, it's had real lag issues. This was frequently the case in Vanilla and TBC in Alterac Valley for example. And no, this wasn't "an FPS issue" (especially as I ran ridiculously fancy rigs back then). I dunno how old you were, but I was in my late 20s. I'd been playing first-person-shooters online since they existed, and was extremely clear on the difference between FPS drop and actual lag.



What you're forgetting is that they weren't ALWAYS fine (if they were for you, you must have been staggeringly lucky). The more you space people out, the better large-scale battles work in WoW. AV was fine unless everyone was close together and fighting (on both sides), for example. Lake Wintergrasp was usually relatively lag-free, because people were spaced out everywhere, and often there wasn't much fighting if there were a lot of people close together (because you tended to quickly wipe out the other side). But even it could have times when it was running less-than-perfectly.

The TM vs SS brawl smashes both sides together in a pretty narrow corridor and has them fighting constantly in a way that wasn't true of AV (most of the time) or Lake Wintergrasp (most of the time). This is why it is very laggy. In heavy fighting on PvP servers (or when everyone was flagged) in the outdoor world, WoW regularly got ridiculously laggy. People used to joke about it. I also note that Tol Barad had some lag issues, despite trying to space people out.

WoW has never had netcode well-optimized for large clashes in small areas - it's not DAoC.

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You seem to be assuming it all works on an random number generator that's generating random numbers for each event, though, and that's very unlikely, precisely because it's inefficient (as literally anyone who knows anything about them knows), and as well-qualified as you may well be, I think you'd agree that Blizzard has people with far more expertise working for it.

It's much more likely they're using some kind of continuous seed to do the randomization (yes that makes it less random, potentially, but that's fine), rather than "rolling dice" (I mean, I know you're not really saying that, but the dude who was, was so profoundly clueless that it's staggering, and that people believe him is outright worrying).

they wont be doing re seeding often, or i would hope not, re seeding for most algorithms is an efficacy loss in its self. preferably they will be using shift-register generators with that possibly wrapped around some logic to parse out patterns that emerge that make random not look random to a user even though it is.

it most likely blizz have the server power to be generating the random they need and likely theirs a lot of "smoke and mirrors" in the back end to save on efficiency and actual calls to the random generator, its also of note most of these are not really random or they don't have to be. there is no such thing as real random just to throw that out there, only psudo-random but the more close to random the more inefficient the algorithm computationally. but a math level rand() isn't needed for a game that for the most part is really just deciding between true/false on a proc, most of the dice roles preach points out aren't actually random generations really, there a binary logical choice between true (item procs) or false (item does not proc) with heuristic weights on the outcome like how often its all ready proceed to weight the result in favour of one way or another.

as to blizz has people with far more expertise, i would actually doubt that. i have 5 years firmware engineering and 10 years Linux dev and 3 years hardware modelling in system-c and varilog, yea i don't make games, but im a software/firmware engineer in a space where efficiency does still matter, my day-t-day is all about performance

but saying that im not as up-to-date on c++ 11 and above as i would like to be, how efficient random is now in that language i cant say 100%. only that it should be made distinct the argument that rand is not the cause behind blizzards issues and rand is not inefficient, because rand is inefficient but thats inconsequential if blizz have the resources to do it and/or are not actually doing any random at all and like with most games programming its all really smoke and mirror's obfuscated determinism.

EDIT: actually there probably no random at all in wow and its all smoke and mirrors ill post some psudo-code in the morning as its 3am here that shows how i would o it to look random without any calls to a random algorithm.

[Chickat]

The week BFA alpha started -
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post48819046

Fixed link.

Yeah but what you fail to mention is the month before that with him hyping shit every day. He's really irresponsible. Unless he's pretty sure it's happening within a week he shouldn't be saying anything about it. He just wants views.

[Spices]

No one should be trusting streamers like that to begin with. Does he know something? Maybe, but there's also a fat chance he doesn't know anything and he's just as much in the dark as everyone else.

[Mokenuf]

I'm genuinely scared for a alpha this late and a release window of august/september. Expansion won't be tested enough and will fail.

[Vynestra]

I'm genuinely scared for a alpha this late and a release window of august/september. Expansion won't be tested enough and will fail.

If you haven't accepted that it's not releasing until Nov at the earliest then you clearly haven't been paying attention.

[Mokenuf]

If you haven't accepted that it's not releasing until Nov at the earliest then you clearly haven't been paying attention.

I really hope it releases Nov/Dec but our corporate overlords at activision might very well release an unfinished untested product in aug/sep.

[FlubberPuddy]

If you haven't accepted that it's not releasing until Nov at the earliest then you clearly haven't been paying attention.

It's still possible it comes out October if they start Alpha testing this week or next. ~7 months of public testing would be a lot more than the 5 months BFA got.

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I really hope it releases Nov/Dec but our corporate overlords at activision might very well release an unfinished untested product in aug/sep.

There's no way it's coming august for sure. It would put the public testing period at even shorter than BFA's. They would not do that again imo.

[George Costanza]

Yeah but what you fail to mention is the month before that with him hyping shit every day. He's really irresponsible. Unless he's pretty sure it's happening within a week he shouldn't be saying anything about it. He just wants views.

How is he irresponsible? its not like anyone has died or gotten hurt from the whole thing.

he (Towelliee) is just trolling mildly and that is ok :P.

[Sharby]

Player versus Player

[With regional restarts] Ashran team size reduced to 25 (was 40).
While we work to improve the performance of Ashran, we are temporarily reducing the player count.



We can finally put this debate to rest on whether or not it was client side or the game.

[Merryck]

Player versus Player

[With regional restarts] Ashran team size reduced to 25 (was 40).
While we work to improve the performance of Ashran, we are temporarily reducing the player count.



We can finally put this debate to rest on whether or not it was client side or the game.

Yeah - and it's a new issue as well.

[Chickat]

WoD Alpha was April 3rd and it released November 13th. 7.5 months. Let's just assume 6 months since they need to test less this time. A March 18th Alpha with 6 months of testing would mean a September 8th release date. Even being pessimistic, they could start Alpha mid-April and release in mid-October probable. So I suppose we should stop with the "They are behind" posts. I am annoyed that they've been teasing us this long, but it is what it is.

I'd rather they get it right, but they might only spend 5.5-6 months testing it since they don't have any huge changes coming. I don't think BFA needed more testing. The systems needed to release earlier for feedback sure, but even 2 months more testing wouldn't have changed too much.

I'm going to assume 6 months of testing before prepatch with another 3 weeks to do some minor changes before launch. Whenever Alpha launches, expect PTR 3-3.5 months after that with beta sometime before the ptr.

My official prediction for Shadowlands. Prepatch September 15th. Shadowlands Launch October 6th 2020.

[Merryck]

WoD Alpha was April 3rd and it released November 13th. 7.5 months. Let's just assume 6 months since they need to test less this time. A March 18th Alpha with 6 months of testing would mean a September 8th release date. Even being pessimistic, they could start Alpha mid-April and release in mid-October probable. So I suppose we should stop with the "They are behind" posts. I am annoyed that they've been teasing us this long, but it is what it is.

I'd rather they get it right, but they might only spend 5.5-6 months testing it since they don't have any huge changes coming. I don't think BFA needed more testing. The systems needed to release earlier for feedback sure, but even 2 months more testing wouldn't have changed too much.

I'm going to assume 6 months of testing before prepatch with another 3 weeks to do some minor changes before launch. Whenever Alpha launches, expect PTR 3-3.5 months after that with beta sometime before the ptr.

My official prediction for Shadowlands. Prepatch September 15th. Shadowlands Launch October 6th 2020.

Based. Although the thought of waiting until September for the prepatch + leveling changes makes me upset.

[Chickat]

It also gives them time to get subs up a lot in time for the End of Quarter on September 30th. Also likely 3-4 weeks to get bugs fixed before Blizzcon with 9.1/9.1.5 reveals at the con.

I like predicting stuff so I'm going to predict the entire next 2ish years of WoW.

March 12th-Unencrypted build for Alpha but realms not up.
March 18th- Alpha playable.
May 21st- Beta for Shadowlands begins.
July 1st- Prepatch on the PTR
September 15th- Prepatch on live servers.
October 6th- Shadowlands launch.
November 6th/7th- Blizzcon 9.1/9.1.5 reveal.
December 15th- 9.1 on the ptr.
February 23rd- 9.1 release date. (This is kind of late, but the holidays mess the timeframe all up. It could be earlier in the month, but will be Feb.)
March 11th- 9.1.5 on ptr
April 27th- 9.1.5 released.
May 13th- 9.2 reveal Stream
May 18th- 9.2 on the PTR
July 20th- 9.2 released.
August 9th-9.2.5 on ptr
September 21st-9.2.5 released.
October 13th- 9.3 reveal stream.
October 14th- 9.3 on ptr.
November-Blizzcon and 10.0 announcement.
January 11th- 9.3 released.
Late Feb- 10.0 Alpha.
August/September- 10.0 released.

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Yeah... I'm bored if you couldn't tell.

[razorpax]

Based. Although the thought of waiting until September for the prepatch + leveling changes makes me upset.

my thought will always be an early to mid october release

it has to release before blizzcon and the raid will have to either be out right after blizzcon or long enough before it that the race is done

the prepatch will likely be on the longer side because of the leveling revamp and the chromie time thing
it ahs a scourge invasion
we dont know anything beyond the scourge and the revamp

the schedule for the anaheim center is also pretty packed i think the only open weekends currently are the week before thanksgiving and the final weekend of october

no way they launch after october because as much as players like to say Blizz does not care about the race....they did not fix bugs because it would ahve effected the race. It cant launch after blizzcon even at the earliest tahts the first week of november and thanksgiving comes during the time of the raid. You could argue taht they postpone the raid until after thanksgiving but then you have only 3 weeks before christmas stuff starts. 7 months from today it releases

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It also gives them time to get subs up a lot in time for the End of Quarter on September 30th. Also likely 3-4 weeks to get bugs fixed before Blizzcon with 9.1/9.1.5 reveals at the con.

I like predicting stuff so I'm going to predict the entire next 2ish years of WoW.

March 12th-Unencrypted build for Alpha but realms not up.
March 18th- Alpha playable.
May 21st- Beta for Shadowlands begins.
July 1st- Prepatch on the PTR
September 15th- Prepatch on live servers.
October 6th- Shadowlands launch.
November 6th/7th- Blizzcon 9.1/9.1.5 reveal.
December 15th- 9.1 on the ptr.
February 23rd- 9.1 release date. (This is kind of late, but the holidays mess the timeframe all up. It could be earlier in the month, but will be Feb.)
March 11th- 9.1.5 on ptr
April 27th- 9.1.5 released.
May 13th- 9.2 reveal Stream
May 18th- 9.2 on the PTR
July 20th- 9.2 released.
August 9th-9.2.5 on ptr
September 21st-9.2.5 released.
October 13th- 9.3 reveal stream.
October 14th- 9.3 on ptr.
November-Blizzcon and 10.0 announcement.
January 11th- 9.3 released.
Late Feb- 10.0 Alpha.
August/September- 10.0 released.

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Yeah... I'm bored if you couldn't tell.

i would suck every blizzard dick if it meant 10.0 was a dragon expansion

[Penegal]

WoD Alpha was April 3rd and it released November 13th. 7.5 months. Let's just assume 6 months since they need to test less this time. A March 18th Alpha with 6 months of testing would mean a September 8th release date. Even being pessimistic, they could start Alpha mid-April and release in mid-October probable. So I suppose we should stop with the "They are behind" posts. I am annoyed that they've been teasing us this long, but it is what it is.

I'd rather they get it right, but they might only spend 5.5-6 months testing it since they don't have any huge changes coming. I don't think BFA needed more testing. The systems needed to release earlier for feedback sure, but even 2 months more testing wouldn't have changed too much.

I'm going to assume 6 months of testing before prepatch with another 3 weeks to do some minor changes before launch. Whenever Alpha launches, expect PTR 3-3.5 months after that with beta sometime before the ptr.

My official prediction for Shadowlands. Prepatch September 15th. Shadowlands Launch October 6th 2020.

Why do people keep assuming they need to test stuff less now? Just because the sheer count might be smaller than BfA's systems that were supposed to be tested does not guarantee they need to test less. If anything, BfA was not tested enough. I'd love to have the beta go on for as long as possible so we have no excuses about any fuck ups and any ignored legitimate feedback. Personally, I'm happy to wait until December if needed. 1. Wow isn't the only game in existence; 2. There's lots of stuff I can accomplish in-game without it having to be 8.3 content.

[Revamp Man]

Why do people keep assuming they need to test stuff less now? Just because the sheer count might be smaller than BfA's systems that were supposed to be tested does not guarantee they need to test less. If anything, BfA was not tested enough. I'd love to have the beta go on for as long as possible so we have no excuses about any fuck ups and any ignored legitimate feedback. Personally, I'm happy to wait until December if needed. 1. Wow isn't the only game in existence; 2. There's lots of stuff I can accomplish in-game without it having to be 8.3 content.

When the game has less content then you literally need to test less

No islands
No warfront
2 fewer dungeons

Only 5 zones

No azerite so you just have to balance soul bonds and covenant abilities

Less testing

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I really, really hope they throw the prepatch out much earlier. They can gate the pre-expansion events but the more time they give us with the new leveling system the better. I want to have 16 characters ready for Shadowlands (4 armor types X 4 covenants)

Mid august

I say @Chickat had a pretty good prediction table

[FlemmMinis]

When the game has less content then you literally need to test less

No islands
No warfront
2 fewer dungeons

Only 5 zones

No azerite so you just have to balance soul bonds and covenant abilities

Less testing

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Mid august

I say @Chickat had a pretty good prediction table

Yeah because azerit was tested

[Sondrelk]

When the game has less content then you literally need to test less

No islands
No warfront
2 fewer dungeons

Only 5 zones

No azerite so you just have to balance soul bonds and covenant abilities

Less testing

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Mid august

I say @Chickat had a pretty good prediction table

There are still new stuff though. Presumably new M+ affixes, possibly changes to the Emissary system, the same amount of class balancing, problems with Covenants and soulbinds which has the same probability of having wonky balancing as Azerite did.

[Hyrja]

Happy datamine day

[Revamp Man]

There are still new stuff though. Presumably new M+ affixes, possibly changes to the Emissary system, the same amount of class balancing, problems with Covenants and soulbinds which has the same probability of having wonky balancing as Azerite did.

Exactly I do agree with you on that they do have to test all of that and they do need to work out how the weekly cache system will work.

However can we both agree that without as much outdoor content to tests or as much variance for the gear in terms of no longer having traits that one can assume the time that would be used to test that would be saved that’s allowing them to spend more time on the systems we have coming.

Essentially what I am saying is that they no longer have to produce 10 diamonds but only seven and producing them will take less time but you can assume that they will still take more time to polish those diamonds

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Happy datamine day

I mean weren’t you were the one praising the Almighty streamer God who said that we wouldn’t get anything for at least another week?

But yeah we are probably going to get something tomorrow or today

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Yeah because azerit was tested

It was developed and it was probably tested internally as we have seen how many different iterations the interface went through

I’m not saying that blizzard tested the system what they did was idiotic what they did was decide with the system would be give us the minimal amount of testing and then complain telling us that we don’t understand and should give it a chance when it launched in a broken state not understanding that players are smart enough to look at the system and say within five seconds that it will not work

And then while these developers or community managers whatever you wanna say are on Twitter in the forums telling players that they are wrong and in a think a month they had to suck it up and eat crow when their boss came out and said that they were wrong and the players were right