Are the infinite power grind here to stay?

[Kralljin]

Wildstar targeted a particular audience and failed. Blizz targeted everyone, was wildly successful with that model.

Kinda the issue when you enter discussions midway, read through my other posts regarding Wildstar on the the last few pages.

[Jessicka]

Kinda the issue when you enter discussions midway, read through my other posts regarding Wildstar on the the last few pages.

It doesn’t really matter whether Wildstar had succeeded or not. The real point is that Blizz literally changed who their target audience was with Cataclysm.

Only they know why that was, but fear of competition was a big talk at the time, and a similar thing happened with WoD when they implemented Garrisons because that’s what they’d seen potential competitors do. Those too failed.

That’s why I keep saying that they need to just remind themselves why WoW from Classic through to Wrath was wildly successful and stop trying to second guess themselves and copy failing competitors.

WoW was, and still is the benchmark, they should fear no one and just focus on themselves.

[kaminaris]

also 100% more proof you are not a top 10 raider like you claim.
no matter what corruption you get, a 400 ilvl item with a corruption will not be better then a 485 with no corruption.
cause of how corruption scales on low ilvl gear.

Oh that is completely false. Currently only infinite stars, twisted appendage, gushing wound scales with ilvl.

Lets take some mediocre for BM hunter corruption - racing pulse III
I have wrists with 420 ilvl and racing pulse, lets compare that to 400 version with same corruption and 485 without it shall we?

https://i.imgur.com/RyCE1eY.png

Some may say, ok it's because its wrists, lets sim legs then with and without void ritual/infinite stars/Deadly momentum without any void ritual allies

https://i.imgur.com/67lHch3.png

485 ilvl cannot hold a candle to practically any 400 item with corruptions (with the exception of those really bad ones like glympse of clarity, versatile for BM)

[Relapses]

It doesn’t really matter whether Wildstar had succeeded or not. The real point is that Blizz literally changed who their target audience was with Cataclysm.

Only they know why that was, but fear of competition was a big talk at the time, and a similar thing happened with WoD when they implemented Garrisons because that’s what they’d seen potential competitors do. Those too failed.

That’s why I keep saying that they need to just remind themselves why WoW from Classic through to Wrath was wildly successful and stop trying to second guess themselves and copy failing competitors.

WoW was, and still is the benchmark, they should fear no one and just focus on themselves.

WoW's demographic never shifted. It has always been targeted at casual players. WoW has always been a casually accessible MMO with hardcore elements, not the other way around. Moreover, there is no way to say that WoW's current infallibility is because they paid attention to their competition. You can't rewrite history now that WoW has remained relevant to say that WoW would have been just as successful if it hadn't changed. This is the literal definition of revisionism.

[Kralljin]

It doesn’t really matter whether Wildstar had succeeded or not.

But that's not the point...?

Like, the point is to provide more context on why the game failed, simply narrowing it down to "target audience" simply leaves out why the game failed as a project.

Heck, Wildstar was 9(!) years in development, WoW by comparison was 4-5 years in development, it doesn't take an insider to figure out that something probably went seriously wrong if a project takes nearly a decade of development, while other companies managed to release a game within the same genre within half of the time.

The real point is that Blizz literally changed who their target audience was with Cataclysm.

Arguing over sematics, but that i'd say that was Wotlk, 4.0 was basically Wotlk except more difficult.

That was in my opinion where the big error did lie, while Cata initially seemed as some sort of "return to form" of TBC, it was actually just a hardmode version of Wotlk.
Then they realized the audience that was attracted towards raiding with Wotlk doesn't mix too well with more difficult content, to which they resorted to LFR to somehow save that.

In TBC however, i doubt those people ever went raiding outside of a nerfed Karazhan, because the rest of the game was slow enough that they simply farmed rep in dungeons, Badges or mats for profession items.
TBC could keep you busy even if you didn't want to raid, but that was gone with Wotlk as the game got a lot faster and those people hit a brickwall after weeks of playing and had to enter raids to progress their character.

Only they know why that was, but fear of competition was a big talk at the time, and a similar thing happened with WoD when they implemented Garrisons because that’s what they’d seen potential competitors do. Those too failed.

I don't know, maybe, maybe they also wanted to try their own take on housing as it was a big fan request.
However, i think that the WoW devs simply have no fucking clue how to create anything of quality outside of dungeon and raid content.

Look at World content, we went from grinding mats / rep, to Dailies, to World quest, to a mixture of World quests and dailies.
15 years of development right there.

That’s why I keep saying that they need to just remind themselves why WoW from Classic through to Wrath was wildly successful and stop trying to second guess themselves and copy failing competitors.

To me, it feels like that earlier versions of WoW had more confidence in their design, they had an idea of what was fun and implemented it, the current design just feels more like appeasement politics towards every faction within an extremely diverse audience that has diametrically opposing views on a lot of subjects.

[Relapses]

To me, it feels like that earlier versions of WoW had more confidence in their design, they had an idea of what was fun and implemented it the current design just feels more like appeasement politics towards every faction within an extremely diverse audience that has diametrically opposing views on a lot of subjects.

Dear God man. You clearly put a lot of thought into your posts but this is absolutely absurd. Who is to say what does or does not constitute fun? Why do you get to associate what are very likely personal nostalgia-tinged vestiges of past design as fun but the current iteration is anything but? Who is to say that there aren't doe-eyed players experiencing current WoW for the first time and having a blast? In 15 years, if WoW's still around will we see threads from people who long for the simpler days of World Quests and Emissaries? That's the issue with any argument that favors past versions of WoW. They all assume (incorrectly) that their positive experience is shared by all players and any negative experience is similarly viewed. It's just not that simple.

[FelPlague]

Oh that is completely false. Currently only infinite stars, twisted appendage, gushing wound scales with ilvl.

Lets take some mediocre for BM hunter corruption - racing pulse III
I have wrists with 420 ilvl and racing pulse, lets compare that to 400 version with same corruption and 485 without it shall we?

https://i.imgur.com/RyCE1eY.png

Some may say, ok it's because its wrists, lets sim legs then with and without void ritual/infinite stars/Deadly momentum without any void ritual allies

https://i.imgur.com/67lHch3.png

485 ilvl cannot hold a candle to practically any 400 item with corruptions (with the exception of those really bad ones like glympse of clarity, versatile for BM)

so i love how you choose to not use DPS increase, but the actual number, as to hide how little of a difference that is.

4% decrease.
but also notice that big purple number beside it?
35 less corruption.
yeah no, a 4% increase for going from "sub 10" to "almost 40" is insane.
cause that 35 corruption could go literally anywhere else, giving equal, or evne more damage, while that other peice is far better.



I would gladly give up a SIMMED 4% dps, for being at sub 10, instead of just shy of 40.
again this is a SIMMED 4%, which in reality is about a 1% increase on a real player, and also has the whole you know... random proc slow... random proc eye...


also its funny you show racing pulse, when you obviously have other corruptions on, what are those other corruptions? possibly a "more benefit from obtaining haste"


Then wioth image 2 its EVEN WORSE.
10 ilvl ok sure 2k thats a 4% increase for you, and is 15 corruption higher.
you show other items that we cannot see if they are really the ilvl you say they are.

but the funniest of them all is you show the void ritual 3, "HEY this has 3k more dps!" yes but your also 66 more corruption higher...
6% increase for being at almost 100 corruption, which means your gunna die 10 seconds into a fight.
even funier the infinite stars, a 2% increase, but literally has you at 100 corruption.


so yes, if you are fine with dying 10 seconds into the fight, or draining your healers to an insane amount SURE you can use a 400 with tons of corruption, and be better then a peice without it.
But you are comparing max ranks, to where you go MASSIVLY into the corruption ratings.


THIS is what you get at 100 sanity, for that sweet "6% dps increase" you think so worth.

40% more damage taken, 40% less healing received.
Thing from beyond gives eye and grasping
Grasping literally roots you
Grand delusion will deal 272k damage when it hits you.
Eye does 52.5k dps on first tick, and only further increases, while also having an almost 30 yard radius.


BUT YES totally far better then that pitiful little bit less dps. you are so right.


i do love to the bits how you say "X cant hold a candle to Y" meanwhile X you are perfectly fine, but Y, yeah you do like 2% more dps, but you die 20 seconds into the fight.

[Rogue Karl]

Wildstar targeted a particular audience and failed. Blizz targeted everyone, was wildly successful with that model. Then for reasons only known to themselves shifted the goalposts in Cataclysm to only target players who thought they were elite.

I’ll emphasise that ‘thought they were’, because it was no end of the “I’d be a Top 10 raider if I had better team mates” that led the charge on hard heroics and merging raid difficulties.

Obviously top guilds and top players just got on doing what they do, while everything else crumbled and those guys never became the top 10 raiders they thought they were.

And that’s kind of where they’ve been since. It’s an odd section of the audience to try to placate.

Cata dungeons were easier then some tbc dungeons. If you want to argue shifts wrath was larger. What cata messed up on was a lack of end game in favor of recreating the world with awful meme zones.

- - - Updated - - -

so i love how you choose to not use DPS increase, but the actual number, as to hide how little of a difference that is.

4% decrease.
but also notice that big purple number beside it?
35 less corruption.
yeah no, a 4% increase for going from "sub 10" to "almost 40" is insane.
cause that 35 corruption could go literally anywhere else, giving equal, or evne more damage, while that other peice is far better.



I would gladly give up a SIMMED 4% dps, for being at sub 10, instead of just shy of 40.
again this is a SIMMED 4%, which in reality is about a 1% increase on a real player, and also has the whole you know... random proc slow... random proc eye...


also its funny you show racing pulse, when you obviously have other corruptions on, what are those other corruptions? possibly a "more benefit from obtaining haste"


Then wioth image 2 its EVEN WORSE.
10 ilvl ok sure 2k thats a 4% increase for you, and is 15 corruption higher.
you show other items that we cannot see if they are really the ilvl you say they are.

but the funniest of them all is you show the void ritual 3, "HEY this has 3k more dps!" yes but your also 66 more corruption higher...
6% increase for being at almost 100 corruption, which means your gunna die 10 seconds into a fight.
even funier the infinite stars, a 2% increase, but literally has you at 100 corruption.


so yes, if you are fine with dying 10 seconds into the fight, or draining your healers to an insane amount SURE you can use a 400 with tons of corruption, and be better then a peice without it.
But you are comparing max ranks, to where you go MASSIVLY into the corruption ratings.


THIS is what you get at 100 sanity, for that sweet "6% dps increase" you think so worth.

40% more damage taken, 40% less healing received.
Thing from beyond gives eye and grasping
Grasping literally roots you
Grand delusion will deal 272k damage when it hits you.
Eye does 52.5k dps on first tick, and only further increases, while also having an almost 30 yard radius.


BUT YES totally far better then that pitiful little bit less dps. you are so right.


i do love to the bits how you say "X cant hold a candle to Y" meanwhile X you are perfectly fine, but Y, yeah you do like 2% more dps, but you die 20 seconds into the fight.

You use a lot if words to say " o I was wrong a low 400 piece can crush mythic raid gear" you know?

Also depending on your class you run anything under 40 baseline.

I admit I was looking at the scaling corruptions as they are my bis but this system is utterly broken.

[FelPlague]

Cata dungeons were easier then some tbc dungeons. If you want to argue shifts wrath was larger. What cata messed up on was a lack of end game in favor of recreating the world with awful meme zones.

- - - Updated - - -



You use a lot if words to say " o I was wrong a low 400 piece can crush mythic raid gear" you know?

Also depending on your class you run anything under 40 baseline.

I admit I was looking at the scaling corruptions as they are my bis but this system is utterly broken.

LOLOLOL alright buddy, again you have yet to prove your claim of being top 10 guild raider.
you say you dont wanna "dox yourself" but really? there is a million easy ways to prove such without "doxxing" yourself.

but yes you are so right, taking 40% more damage, and getting healed for 40% less, is SOOOOOOO worth that 1k extra dps!

[Rogue Karl]

LOLOLOL alright buddy, again you have yet to prove your claim of being top 10 guild raider.
you say you dont wanna "dox yourself" but really? there is a million easy ways to prove such without "doxxing" yourself.

but yes you are so right, taking 40% more damage, and getting healed for 40% less, is SOOOOOOO worth that 1k extra dps!

It isn't 1k dps. Its 1k dps if you ignore 60ilv of stats...

You are also not taking that much damage unless you heavily stack it so I don't see the point your trying to make.

[FelPlague]

It isn't 1k dps. Its 1k dps if you ignore 60ilv of stats...

You are also not taking that much damage unless you heavily stack it so I don't see the point your trying to make.

Mhm... I feel like you dont know how corruption works, he is not stacking it, he is adding ONE item.

[Rogue Karl]

Mhm... I feel like you dont know how corruption works, he is not stacking it, he is adding ONE item.

Right... and currently to my knowledge the highest a single corruption item can add is 75 corruption with the cloak that is currently a mid 20s.

You are not taking any negative effect but a random slow and the eye.

[kaminaris]

so i love how you choose to not use DPS increase, but the actual number, as to hide how little of a difference that is.

4% decrease.
but also notice that big purple number beside it?
35 less corruption.
yeah no, a 4% increase for going from "sub 10" to "almost 40" is insane.
cause that 35 corruption could go literally anywhere else, giving equal, or evne more damage, while that other peice is far better.

4% increase comparing 485 to a 400 ilvl item while former being weaker.
Corruption amount absolutely doesn't matter in this case as I just showed the difference between a single slot.
So if you have a dilema if you should equip 400 ilvl with corruption or the one without it but 485, the one with corruption will be better.

I would gladly give up a SIMMED 4% dps, for being at sub 10, instead of just shy of 40.
again this is a SIMMED 4%, which in reality is about a 1% increase on a real player, and also has the whole you know... random proc slow... random proc eye...


also its funny you show racing pulse, when you obviously have other corruptions on, what are those other corruptions? possibly a "more benefit from obtaining haste"

You are wrong on this one. No matter what you say 4% is actually pretty significant difference.
My other corruptions doesn't matter, this was a difference between single slot.
If you have a 400 with infinite stars 3 and 485 in same slot while having no other corruption you equip 400 with IS.
Simple as that.

Then wioth image 2 its EVEN WORSE.
10 ilvl ok sure 2k thats a 4% increase for you, and is 15 corruption higher.
you show other items that we cannot see if they are really the ilvl you say they are.

Difference between pure 400 and pure 485 is around 1.5k dps (2.5%)
Difference between pure 400 and corrupted 400 is around 1.2k UP TO A WHOOPING 7.5K dps depending on corruption.

Which translates into, (assuming you do 65k dps) = 11%

but the funniest of them all is you show the void ritual 3, "HEY this has 3k more dps!" yes but your also 66 more corruption higher...
6% increase for being at almost 100 corruption, which means your gunna die 10 seconds into a fight.
even funier the infinite stars, a 2% increase, but literally has you at 100 corruption.

difference between single slot Total corruption doesn't matter at all in this case.
And what is most funny, I would be better off with 5x 400 pieces on my hunter with Severe 3 (5x20 corruption) than a 5x pure 485 pieces


So rest of your post doesn't make sense since your argument is based on invalid assumption. You are simply wrong.
Corruption is retarded in this regard.

Like this guy:
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...en-mill/revvez

Any item with haste corruption is going to be better than "pure" piece 485, so if he didn't have 465 in those slots, 400 would be better.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Your entire post proves my point. You are trying to project your opinion as fact and insulting everyone who disagrees with you. No ponit in taking you seriously anymore.

The typical reply of people proven wrong but still feeling the need to have the last word. Have a good day and I hope you learned from this even if you won't admit it.

[Kralljin]

Dear God man. You clearly put a lot of thought into your posts but this is absolutely absurd. Who is to say what does or does not constitute fun?

As far as WoW is concerned?
Character progression.

I think that is at the end of day the silver lining of WoW and if that isn't fun, then the game has a problem.

Why do you get to associate what are very likely personal nostalgia-tinged vestiges of past design as fun but the current iteration is anything but?

WoW, back in 2005, was an objectively good game.
Whether the exact game is still good in 2020 is something that is up for debate, but when the game came out 15 years ago, it was fun and that's why it attracted such a large audience.

The success of WoW during those days speaks for itself.
And i will repeat myself by saying that doesn't necessarily mean Classic is superior as a game in 2020, but it most certainly wasn't some dumb coincidence that a lot of people were attracted to some game that actually sucked in 2005.

Who is to say that there aren't doe-eyed players experiencing current WoW for the first time and having a blast? In 15 years, if WoW's still around will we see threads from people who long for the simpler days of World Quests and Emissaries?

I honestly doubt it.

Compare it to Star Wars, the very first movie came out ~43 years ago, the entire original trilogy still has a cultural impact to this day.
Characters like Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, etc. are still universally recognized, even by an audience that wasn't even born when the movies came out.

Can you say the same about the prequel trilogy (which by the way is also now almost 20 years old) or even the Disney trilogy?

It's not like Blizzard itself has tried to re capture that spirit multiple times by now.
Ashran? Inspired by old AV - crashed and burned.
Grinds in the outdoor world(such as AP)? Inspired by Classic / TBC as even raiders had to go into the world and farm stuff.
World PvP? Yeah, that also was mainly a thing in Classic
No Flying? Again, Classic was the only era of WoW until WoD where flying was nonexistant.

But that's the catch of it, the game has moved past this point, taking single, isolated elements from this era and throwing it into the mix with more modern elements just doesn't work.

That's the issue with any argument that favors past versions of WoW.

No, the difference is that the game had a more clear direction and a good core, the game wasn't perfect but a lot of people still felt attracted towards this core of the game.
And as said earlier, the game still had more room to grow.
For example, this entire debate of "Rental powers" just highlights this because it is one massive lose / lose situation for the devs.

Add in more stuff for the sake of it? Your game gets bloated.
Add in rental powers instead? People don't like getting stuff on a rental basis.
Don't add anything? Why should i buy that expansion again?

There is no magic solution to a problem that's simply caused by the age of the game.

Take a look at class changes in TBC / Wotlk / Cata, most of that was just fixing existing issues of classes, whereas fixing too many issues leads to homogenization.

On another note, take this entire debate over "Legacy" Servers such as Classic.
Cata is now a decade old and i still don't see a lot of people asking for Cata Servers - When Classic WoW was a decade old, that debate over "Classic Servers" was brought up so often that it even received a statement from J. Allen Brack (to which he gave a famous answer).

A previous version / expansion isn't necessarily superior, yet that also doesn't mean it's inferior.
WoW expansions to some extent have become more of an "Iteration" than just an expansion of existing content, so it's natural that there are people preferring a different style.

[StrawberryZebra]

It isn't 1k dps. Its 1k dps if you ignore 60ilv of stats...

In this case, Void Ritual 3 can be averaged out as being equal to +X secondary stats at all times. Obviously that changes based on how many other people are using it in your group, but you can in theory calculate it to be a fixed amount of stats and work that backwards to determine the ilevel. That's a very math heavy solution.

I agree with you that it makes gearing confusing and potentially disapointing. Getting an ilevel 475 that is mathematically worse than something of a lower iLevel feels terrible. That's a very dangerous state for the game to be in, in my opinion. One of the core parts of the game is seriously lacking in clarity.

Deciding which gear is best almost an excerise in futility without using a site like Raidbots. It's thrown out any chance of simply being able to look at an item and work out if it's something you should be wearing or not. Even then all you get is which is the mathematical best, which doesn't always take into account which class you're playing and how much corruption you're comfortable with.

As far as WoW is concerned?
Character progression.

I think that is at the end of day the silver lining of WoW and if that isn't fun, then the game has a problem.

To quote the Big Lebowski; "Yeah, well, y'know, that's just like, your opinion man".

I play WoW because I want to fight eldritch abominations and great big dragons with a small army of players, thats what I find fun. I just see stat progression as a means to that end, nothing more. I don't care about my characters power beyond what content it lets me do.

Some players just consider WoW to be the game to hang out in with their friends. Or maybe they're roleplaying in Goldshire. They're having fun that doesn't even require character progression at all. Lots of people seem to like the collectables too, and PvP and various other parts of the game.

You may be interested in character progression, and that's totally fine, but assuming that everyone else is looking to get the same kind of experience as you out of the game would be a mistake.

[Kralljin]

To quote the Big Lebowski; "Yeah, well, y'know, that's just like, your opinion man".

Looking at the foundation of the game, not really.

Even something simple as leveling a character is essentially character progression, your character slowly becomes better as you gain levels, gear and thus more power.
You might discover other activities along the way, but that's probably where any player started, with leveling a character.

That's also the reason why almost virtually any activity has some form of reward, because people want to progress their character, it doesn't have to be power necessarily, but even collecting something is a form of character progression, altough it being cosmetic.

People can do a lot of things within WoW, that's their thing, but it's not like WoW has really put a focus on activities such as roleplaying, they have their own servertype but that's about it.

[Th3Scourge]

How is that really any different than it's been for many years.



Top classic rogue log, passive DPS is over 50%. Sure, it was less prevalent after cata for a bit, but for a long time passive DPS was really high.

I think you're missing the point. You roll a rogue, you know that your white damage is going to make up the bulk of your damage, it's part of the damage profile of the class. Also, you ain't doing any white damage when you're not hitting the boss, so uptime on the boss is key

And then we have RNG gear providing a passive damage ability making up over 30% of someone's damage.

Passive damage isn't a problem when it's actually part of the class design.

[kaminaris]

I think you're missing the point. You roll a rogue, you know that your white damage is going to make up the bulk of your damage, it's part of the damage profile of the class. Also, you ain't doing any white damage when you're not hitting the boss, so uptime on the boss is key

And then we have RNG gear providing a passive damage ability making up over 30% of someone's damage.

Passive damage isn't a problem when it's actually part of the class design.

There is no passive damage in wow in the first place. None of the corruption will proc if you stop hitting the boss. The same with trinkets.
You have to hit buttons in order to keep corruptions to deal damage. not to mention things like passive stat increases are not doing any damage on its own.

[Evaddon]

One could hope not, its a hopeless mechanic but ALOT of games are adding these mechanics...quality is a second thought, longevity is the name of the of the industry these days...how long they can keep you playing and coming back and for some this mechanic is like candy or crack,whatever makes them stronger then the other guy however small, they just can't put it down...which inevitable hurts us all, and the games we love, or rather want to love

Its painful, and ultimately unnecessary, especially in a game like World of Warcraft (with so much layered power gains and artificial power gains) or any MMO for that matter