Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Sorshen]

It might surprise you to know that a universal healthcare plan was being circulated for the Democrats in the 1990s.

Know who authored it? Hillary Clinton.

So, no. Medicare for All isn't dead, but it's been delayed because certain people wanted to indulge a cult of personality rather than actually get the fucking thing implemented.

I... I just can't, lol

[starlord]

This is really what I don't get about this crowd.

It's not like healthcare is a niche interest.

You all fucking need it. You all are going to get sick. You all are going to get hurt and unless something phenomenal happens in our future, probably eventually die. It is inevitable that every man, woman, and child in this country will need healthcare. And if you don't need it right now, you surely know someone who does.

So it's a bit puzzling how anyone could seem downright giddy about our healthcare system not getting a meaningful improvement. How some of these folks flippantly handwave healthcare away like it's just some thing those weirdos are obsessed with, those crazy Bernie Bros. This is the true idiocracy. It's hard not to wonder if it's a mass hysteria nearly as bad as the one that makes people support Trump.

So while I can understand that folks deem beating Trump with no room for error as more important, this particular response to these particular issues is more absurd than the Dancing Plagues. What a weird thing to see.

who's giddy about not getting healthcare improvements?

[Levelfive]

Guy literally said in the last 24h that he'd veto m4a. The democratic party at large doesn't want m4a. It's dead.

He didn't say that; he dodged the question, which was smart, and I hope we see more of that because Democrats need to campaign like they actually want to win for a change.

[Elegiac]

Actually he qualified for that marathon so well they had to screw around with him to make sure he couldn't get noticed. Glad to see you admit the DNC put pressure on the scale though.

Good to see you haven't been reading anyone's posts when they explain to you that favor is not rigging and that Bernie Bros have a difficulty grasping this because they don't understand politics. Anyway...

The "marathon" is the general election. He did not qualify for it. He failed to meet the delegate threshold *twice* in half a decade on the same message.

And also means those older voters better also turn out during the general because they put dogshit like Biden in who runs off many other voters who aren't right leaning and 40+ years old. So they better come out after making sure to put in a guy that makes the younger ones want to stay home.

Weren't you literally just saying older people turn out more reliably?

We know the turn out among the older generations was up on the Democratic stuff, how many of them were actually fresh versus how many of them actually just typically voted Republican?

I know, tinfoil territory but I can't help but wonder.

So your conspiracy theory is that Joe Biden is managing to reach former Republican voters so well they changed party affiliations entirely.

Remind me how he's not apparently a shoe in for the general election, if he has this level of influence? Lol.

[Thelxi]

What that implies is that she, an actual progressive, had managed to reach people that Sanders did not.

I was talking with someone about that yesterday and I think I am one of those people. I'm a millennial still in my 20s, I have the SJW bug in me, I've experienced both ends of the wealth spectrum, I like his ideological vision of the future and even stand to personally benefit from some of them; I shouldn't just be in his camp, I should be leading the charge making actual arguments for the urgency of the revolution. And yet I just couldn't stomach it. Every time I heard the other candidates use the word "fight" I felt good and hopeful; every time I heard Nina say the word "fight" I felt dread.

[Elegiac]

who's giddy about not getting healthcare improvements?

Nobody, but the Bros latest bullshit du jour is saying people that don't support Bernie don't care about people dying from insulin rationing.

[kasuke06]

The ACA wasn't rammed down anyone's throat. There were literally a couple hundred changes to the bill by Republicans. If they were going to ram anything down anyone's throat they would have went right for universal healthcare. The ACA was the compromise, using a Republican plan, literally Romneycare from Massachusetts as a foundation.

Oh yes, they managed curry enough favor for a... fully partisan vote.

[starlord]

Nobody, but the Bros latest bullshit du jour is saying people that don't support Bernie don't care about people dying from insulin rationing.

well they don't care about abortion rights so i guess some level of projection is expected.

[Elegiac]

I was talking with someone about that yesterday and I think I am one of those people. I'm a millennial still in my 20s, I have the SJW bug in me, I've experienced both ends of the wealth spectrum, I like his ideological vision of the future and even stand to personally benefit from some of them; I shouldn't just be in his camp, I should be leading the charge making actual arguments for the urgency of the revolution. And yet I just couldn't stomach it. Every time I heard the other candidates use the word "fight" I felt good and hopeful; every time I heard Nina say the word "fight" I felt dread.

Turns out actual grassroots campaigning still isn't as effective as an internet cult of personality. Sad.

[Grapemask]

Hint: It might be indicative of the fact you are not reading what people are saying correctly if it's that puzzling.

No. You yourself have very flippantly disregarded healthcare specifically. With that toxic tone of yours while doing so. I'll dig up the post if I have to.

[Levelfive]

Oh yes, they managed curry enough favor for a... fully partisan vote.

Yes, it was the Democrats' fault Republicans wouldn't vote for a Republican-designed plan.

[Elegiac]

No. You yourself have very flippantly disregarded healthcare specifically. With that toxic tone of yours while doing so. I'll dig up the post if I have to.

I've literally been banned from this website for making heated comments in favour of single payer and calling out Skroe and the other patricians for ignoring the healthcare crisis but go off I guess.

[Orbitus]

Oh yes, they managed curry enough favor for a... fully partisan vote.

So, them having 200+ changes, to the bill means it was partisan? You might have an argument if the Democrats said fuck off to their changes and passed Single Payer, but since there are so many changes to the bill that were Republican changes, there isn't much you can say, without sounding partisan yourself. They did that for a specific reason. Just like McConnell not doing anything about the 400+ bills sitting on his desk, even some with 85-90% support for, like Universal Background Checks.

[Moggie]

I really doubt it. When he flat out says he'll veto medicare for all if it comes to his desk, he's not even hedging.

Don’t take a random quote from Reddit which was already out of context as face value. He said he’s for improving Obamacare over scrapping that for an entirely new (and more costly) plan especially weighing whether it’s fiscally responsible, which considering the current idiots in office not even caring about the budget then it makes sense. He’s also stated he’s for Universal Healthcare, again which Obamacare can easily be tweaked to be long as the GOP doesn’t try porking it up again like they did when it was finally originally passed into law and protected.

Sanders plan doesn’t even have support as is from folks in the Senate and hasn’t for years. He knows this but use it to prop himself up, doesn’t acknowledge facts. He also knows he can spout all his Day 1 stuff (like Warren tried) but it is literally impossible since Presidents cannot dictate Health policies without both House and Senate. He could do like Trump and co and put the ACA back to Obama era levels through executive privileges but not much else. I really wished folks didn’t blindly listen to candidates and their promises.

In the end, folks need to realize this isn’t some sort of old people vs. young people dealio or whatever conspiracy of the day folks are following. It is 100% about getting rid of the Cheeto President and his cronies out of power so we can go back to normalcy while fixing everything broken in Washington, which will take years and THEN build onto that. I personally simply do not agree with going from far right to far left is good for anybody. Go back towards the center then far left and make the transition more favorable rather than constantly jumping from one extreme to the other. Neither of my top 3 are in the race (I prefer younger Presidents that aren’t in danger of dropping dead within a couple of days). I’ll still vote for whomever the Blue Nom is in November cause it’s not all about my own individual, selfish ideas.

[kasuke06]

Yes, it was the Democrats' fault Republicans wouldn't vote for a Republican-designed plan.

Huh, seems like if they were even attempting to compromise in some way they would have gotten even one symbollic vote... but they didn't. and then every branch flipped... almost like the people didn't want to be suddenly jerked by the neck to the left. But nooooo it must have just been those dastardly republicans making some kind of ingenious plot or scheme while at the same time being maddeningly incompetent.

[Fugus]

Good to see you haven't been reading anyone's posts when they explain to you that favor is not rigging and that Bernie Bros have a difficulty grasping this because they don't understand politics. Anyway...

The "marathon" is the general election. He did not qualify for it. He failed to meet the delegate threshold *twice* in half a decade on the same message.

Nice pivot there, but I wasn't implying favor, I was saying they weren't impartial and neutral in their process which they couldn't even defend in court when sued for it and argued that they had no legal requirement to.

So you can't claim he didn't qualify when you tied an anchor to him throughout part of the marathon. Try again.

Weren't you literally just saying older people turn out more reliably?

Yes I did, I also said that the younger people did come out and vote this time too. So keep trying. Because I really don't want 4 more years of Trump because they shit the bed in the primary and then refused to lay in it during the general.

So your conspiracy theory is that Joe Biden is managing to reach former Republican voters so well they changed party affiliations entirely.

Remind me how he's not apparently a shoe in for the general election, if he has this level of influence? Lol.

No, not at all, I am asking if many did just to min/max their elections where the Republicans get the most Republican Democrat to run against.

The reason being either they dislike Trump but still want a Republican or because that way they know that even if Trump loses, they still get a rather republican consolation prize.

And afterward, they will go back to voting Republican later.

Didn't say he was a shoe in, a good portion of the people who would actually vote for Biden would already prefer Trump. So you get those close to Trump but don't like how abrasive Trump is but those who actually want left wing values are still stuck versus "Trump or Not-Trump" which gets many of them to just say "Fuck It" and not bother.

Keep trying though.

Edit: AFK and off to bed, later.

[Elegiac]

Huh, seems like if they were even attempting to compromise in some way they would have gotten even one symbollic vote... but they didn't. and then every branch flipped... almost like the people didn't want to be suddenly jerked by the neck to the left.

Or that sans the surge that got Obama into office the equal and opposite reaction to America's first President of color would prove equally as effective.

Yes, I am saying the GOP were more obstructionist towards Obama because they're racists. It's literally the party strategy.

[starlord]

Huh, seems like if they were even attempting to compromise in some way they would have gotten even one symbollic vote... but they didn't. and then every branch flipped... almost like the people didn't want to be suddenly jerked by the neck to the left. But nooooo it must have just been those dastardly republicans making some kind of ingenious plot or scheme while at the same time being maddeningly incompetent.

"i will ensure that obama will be a one term president." - mitch mcconnel.

[Elegiac]

Nice pivot there, but I wasn't implying favor, I was saying they weren't impartial and neutral in their process which they couldn't even defend in court when sued for it and argued that they had no legal requirement to.

So you can't claim he didn't qualify when you tied an anchor to him throughout part of the marathon. Try again.

Hey.

Got a secret for you, hun. Clinton also had an anchor, which y'all conveniently ignore because misogyny is okay if you support Medicare for All. That's evident in how much better Biden did this Super Tuesday despite equally qualified as Clinton was.

Yes I did, I also said that the younger people did come out and vote this time too. So keep trying. Because I really don't want 4 more years of Trump because they shit the bed in the primary and then refused to lay in it during the general.

Hey I mean Biden managed to build this existing coalition, I have no doubt that further outreach is down the pipe especially if Warren endorses him.

The Bros will continue to try and rebuff every attempt, however, so it's not a good litmus test.

No, not at all, I am asking if many did just to min/max their elections where the Republicans get the most Republican Democrat to run against.

Uh huh.

Sounds like another conspiracy theory to explain Bernie not being as popular as you've built him up to be.

[Theodarzna]

You believe literally everything will improve instantaneously, ONLY if your tribe has total control and rams their agenda down everyone's throat. remember what happened last time you pulled that shit? Ramming the ACA while screaming we have to trust you? Oh right, that ended in Trump. So yeah, maybe education should be a focus, you could take a history class.

I do also like that they ended the "hey fuck you healthy poor people" tax.

One can only assume that "Defeating Trump" is a solution if one fundamentally believes Trump was some aberration, like a freak accident. If indeed that is the sincerely believed case than sure, simply running a "Not Trump" would suffice. But one would have to be utterly nuts to look at the state of the country and its inhabitants and conclude that everything was fine until the fire nation attacked.

If one believes that Trump was really a logical conclusion of every moment that happened before, that the material conditions prior to Trump and the accretion of problems and decay brought this about, than simply electing a "Not Trump" who will "Return to the normalcy of November 1st, 2016," than one will likely not actually win the election, but even if they somehow got their American Leonid Brezhnev into office, he would merely herald an even worse age with even more morbid and terrifying vistas that will make you long for the days when it was merely Trumps presidency. Because a vote for Biden is a vote for nothing in that instance. So if you have even a smidgen of doubt that the country has been on a good trajectory for the last thirty years, than voting for Biden to stop Trump is essentially a meaningless vote for a meaningless task. Not only will the dementia patient not win, but even if he did, Veto Joe has said nothing will substantially change, and he'd veto say M4A.

Voting to go back to Nov, 1st 2016 seems like a good idea sure, but not if you are essentially voting to relive Trumps victory over and over and over and over again. The "Not Trump" mentality is basically Sisyphus believing that all he has to do is get that bolder up the hill.