I look forward to Diablo 4, but I'm afraid I won't enjoy it

[Coldkil]

-snip-

To me it's not really a matter of competition, as PoE VS Diablo looks more Apple VS Oranges the more time passes. I mean, it's obvious they're competitors in the genre but given the widely different design choices i think they can just coexist with not many issues.

What makes PoE important for Diablo, ARPGs and the industry in general, is how GGG is doing things. They have first of all a f2p game, and this attracts a lot of players. They are completely transparent in communication, are not afraid to admit errors and to try new stuff out. They make choices in design and know that this approach can drive out some players but they stick to their philosophy.

Basically, they never tried to do an AAA game, they just try to make a good one. And this is paying off especially since old big studios have morphed into cash grabbing machines devoid of any passion.

I am not hoping for Blizzard to change. I am hoping for the development team to have enough room to work with D4 and actually create good gameplay instead of being governed by white collars aiming for max profits with the minimum investment.

[Biomega]

I am not hoping for Blizzard to change. I am hoping for the development team to have enough room to work with D4 and actually create good gameplay instead of being governed by white collars aiming for max profits with the minimum investment.

Unfortunately, that's just not going to be very likely. Profit WILL come before all else, and that includes maximizing target audience beyond the usual core AAPRG demographic.

The best we can hope for is for them to try and do that by providing a game that has depth and complexity in ways that caters to multiple audiences, and manages to provide something for everyone. Whether or not that works and makes for good design is the big question.

[Super Kami Dende]

I hope it is a lot like D3. I liked D3. If People want PoE type Gameplay, just stick to PoE.

[Beefhammer]

Except Poe's growing success proves it wrong. The retarded design of D3 is the minority in terms of what people generally want from an arpg.

I'm pretty certain max concurrent player were 1.5M. It's a success, not in the same way D3 was, and it suffered from tons of bad shit like bad graphics, poor animations, janky gameplay, and systems bloat you all RIP WoW and Blizzard a new one over that regularly, yet no one bats an eye towards PoE over that shit. Then you have the ridiculous passive tree, and having to download special apps to plan your character so you don't fuck it up.

I mean D3 had it's issues, but it's a better game IMO than PoE. And I want to like it. I really do. I try each league and just cant make it through that snorefest that is the campaign. Which is another downside. At least D3 added adventure mode instead of forcing players through the god awful campaign over and over.

[Coldkil]

Unfortunately, that's just not going to be very likely. Profit WILL come before all else, and that includes maximizing target audience beyond the usual core AAPRG demographic.

The best we can hope for is for them to try and do that by providing a game that has depth and complexity in ways that caters to multiple audiences, and manages to provide something for everyone. Whether or not that works and makes for good design is the big question.

We will see. I like what i saw because i know it's just a prototype - i like the style and the ideas behind, but it needs lots and lots of work on. For example, the talent trees are good as baseline system but the current implementation is even more than barebone.

[Biomega]

We will see. I like what i saw because i know it's just a prototype - i like the style and the ideas behind, but it needs lots and lots of work on. For example, the talent trees are good as baseline system but the current implementation is even more than barebone.

Agreed. It seems to be going in a good direction, but they've taken a mere few steps on a journey of many miles. Let's hope they have it in them to go the distance.

[Coldkil]

I'm pretty certain max concurrent player were 1.5M. It's a success, not in the same way D3 was, and it suffered from tons of bad shit like bad graphics, poor animations, janky gameplay, and systems bloat you all RIP WoW and Blizzard a new one over that regularly, yet no one bats an eye towards PoE over that shit. Then you have the ridiculous passive tree, and having to download special apps to plan your character so you don't fuck it up.

Point is that even with all the bloat and complications, most people just check guides/youtube and copy a build, so they don't actually deal with anything about the systems. That's why it's not a problem. The pople who like theorycrafting are satisfied, everyone else have a working build ready to use.

The fact there are a huge selection of skills makes so there are lots of builds available. Something D3 failed completely. Not saying one game is better than the other.

[Beefhammer]

Point is that even with all the bloat and complications, most people just check guides/youtube and copy a build, so they don't actually deal with anything about the systems. That's why it's not a problem. The pople who like theorycrafting are satisfied, everyone else have a working build ready to use.

The fact there are a huge selection of skills makes so there are lots of builds available. Something D3 failed completely. Not saying one game is better than the other.

That's a problem IMO. If people ignore things in game just to follow a guide, it means you did poor job. Same for D3, where many go to site to get the best builds and go from there. I disagree with your last point. I played so many builds that were ever on any "tier list" because I like certain abilities. Of course LoN made things a bit better for non set builds. Something hopefully D4 is correcting, the reliance on sets.

[Coldkil]

That's a problem IMO. If people ignore things in game just to follow a guide, it means you did poor job. Same for D3, where many go to site to get the best builds and go from there. I disagree with your last point. I played so many builds that were ever on any "tier list" because I like certain abilities. Of course LoN made things a bit better for non set builds. Something hopefully D4 is correcting, the reliance on sets.

While i agree that the distance from sets is right, i think it has nothing to do with this.

ARPGs are a genre based on one simple concept - efficiency. You farm the best spots for the best loots or the higher XP/hour ratio etc. Doing differently is just going to "hurt" you (meaning that compared to others you will naturally fall behind - though to me at least it has no meaning since the only progression that matters is my own).

Anyway most players nowadays always look at the competitive side (as in "i am better than others"), and many just want the "easy way out". Many many people find fun to beat a challenge as fast as possible so they cannot move onto the next one, while their approach actually makes the whole thing easier.

This is why cookie cutter builds won't cease to exist and why people will always search for guides/videos about the strongest build. It's in the nature of the game itself and cannot simply disappear.

My opinion is that if all builds are all in a reasonably limited interval of power, any build can do all content and there's enough variety, i am fine. I never check guides, i design my own characters and i don't care if i "fail", since my objective has always been to see how far i can go.

[Razorice]

Don't worry about Diablo 4, It's in the capable hands of Blizzard Devs.

[Beazy]

Don't worry about Diablo 4, It's in the capable hands of Blizzard Devs.

LoL omfg my sides.

[Beefhammer]

While i agree that the distance from sets is right, i think it has nothing to do with this.

ARPGs are a genre based on one simple concept - efficiency. You farm the best spots for the best loots or the higher XP/hour ratio etc. Doing differently is just going to "hurt" you (meaning that compared to others you will naturally fall behind - though to me at least it has no meaning since the only progression that matters is my own).

Anyway most players nowadays always look at the competitive side (as in "i am better than others"), and many just want the "easy way out". Many many people find fun to beat a challenge as fast as possible so they cannot move onto the next one, while their approach actually makes the whole thing easier.

This is why cookie cutter builds won't cease to exist and why people will always search for guides/videos about the strongest build. It's in the nature of the game itself and cannot simply disappear.

My opinion is that if all builds are all in a reasonably limited interval of power, any build can do all content and there's enough variety, i am fine. I never check guides, i design my own characters and i don't care if i "fail", since my objective has always been to see how far i can go.

Hell even in MMOs I never gave a flying fuck about falling behind, the xp/hr BS, or any of that. In ARPGs I play to push myself. So even if some builds suck that's fine. Why should an all Defensive aura/buff/shout build with no spenders be viable in all content? I know you aren't asking for this but many on the official forums are.

I think there were plenty of build variety in D3, the issue is the focus was solely on the top GR builds. Which was basically 1 per class. Most of those tier lists have a few builds per set and multiple mixed set builds as well as a few LoN builds.

I'd argue there was enough build variety and enough variety of builds to handle all content. I'm sure only a small % of players ever cleared a GR150. I cleared Inferno without using any AH but I have yet to come close. But then I don't try and I might have 1500 paragon split between two accounts. I have no desire to farm for perfect rolls and supplement that with augments and all that crap. Just like I wasn't spending years to get perfect item rolls in D2. I beat hell. I was done. I got as far as I could with this wacky shield bash pinball build I made, I'm done.

I've been called a loser for not giving a shit about being competitive in a SP game. I guess I challenge myself, but could care Lee's about what anyone else does in game. It like a discussion on the official forums about the skills which ties back to D3. People complaining about how having access to all skills is bad and meaningless as if Blizzard forces anyone to change abilities. Stop worrying about how other people do things and you'll find you enjoy things a lot more.

[cparle87]

I found Inferno to be a total mess. Only a couple of builds could exploit the game and do it "without problems", or you ran a shield barb. Difficulty was not much of an issue because itemization was shit and basically unfarmable until you bought stuff from AH - the few things that were good in an ocean of useless drops.

Sounds like Diablo from the beginning to me. Recently went back to play D2 again and by the time you're in nightmare you're ignoring everything that isn't a set, socketed, or unique piece unless you're a masochist who picks up blues to vendor for gold to gamble.

[Razorice]

LoL omfg my sides.

Hey, it's true!

[Coldkil]

-snip-

Well, i fully agree with your approach, as it's the same as mine; though we're the minority. Correctly you said that GR system makes so only one build can be at the top and there's no reason for anything else to exist.

In D4 the endgame will be about dungeons which will work the same as M+ in WoW and will have a difficulty cap. That makes all the difference since we're not talking anymore about beating certain thresholds but just how fast someone wants to go. This way opens up to many more builds since if you're able to beat the content, to me it's classified as perfectly viable.

- - - Updated - - -

Sounds like Diablo from the beginning to me. Recently went back to play D2 again and by the time you're in nightmare you're ignoring everything that isn't a set, socketed, or unique piece unless you're a masochist who picks up blues to vendor for gold to gamble.

Well, you could roll good rares or craft stuff in D2. The point is that you didn't needed sets/uniques to be able to do stuff while gathering them made life easier. In D3 it's was the completely opposite - either you had a specific "cheesy" build or the right gear otherwise you could be easily at a wall.

[Vorkreist]

I'm pretty certain max concurrent player were 1.5M.

You must be smoking some dank delusional shit if you think D3 past its 1st launch year ever touched those digits. After the launch and rmt fiasco it never got up even with the lame attempts of RoS.
Now addressing the absurdity of saying D3 being a better game than PoE, you just can't, you seriously can't say that. Trying to pretend that you are too lazy to learn/play the game which has infinitely more depth and reward doesn't make the mega garbage autoplay autotardgear design of D3 better. Those awesome animations don't make it better than PoE just as the micro crowd of lazy people preferring that play style can't ever bring anything in a debate about D3 vs PoE.
A single PoE season that gets dished every 3 months has more content, more interesting, more daring and more flavour than Blizzard releases in 3 years.

[Beefhammer]

You must be smoking some dank delusional shit if you think D3 past its 1st launch year ever touched those digits. After the launch and rmt fiasco it never got up even with the lame attempts of RoS.
Now addressing the absurdity of saying D3 being a better game than PoE, you just can't, you seriously can't say that. Trying to pretend that you are too lazy to learn/play the game which has infinitely more depth and reward doesn't make the mega garbage autoplay autotardgear design of D3 better. Those awesome animations don't make it better than PoE just as the micro crowd of lazy people preferring that play style can't ever bring anything in a debate about D3 vs PoE.
A single PoE season that gets dished every 3 months has more content, more interesting, more daring and more flavour than Blizzard releases in 3 years.

You're smoking something f you think PoE regularly sustains that number. Just the sure volume of RoS sales would say otherwise. Both games spike and fall off quickly. Both have garbage endgame systems. It's fine if you like one ove the other, but a game being better is purely subjective. For me the infinitely smoother combat, extremely readable enemies, and encouragement to try new builds makes D3 vastly superior to PoE. I just find it to be a boring game that doesn't feel good to play.

As for learning, I prefer to learn how to play games while playing them. Not researching them on the internet.

[caervek]

The biggest problem that worries me is that they are bringing back the ability to trade powerful items, but due to the bad press from D3 they are not bringing back the RMAH.

This is an obvious major mistake as for a healthily game the existence of the former mandates the existence of the the latter, without it the economy will be dictated by third party item trading sites (most likely Chinese) which players will have no choice but to use if they don't want to be at a disadvantage.

[Maruka]

I think given blizzards recent history it would be a mistake to pre-order it or buy it at launch. If they package it with some decent wow content i would consider it like they did last time but i wont be buying it alone at launch.

[Unholyground]

As long as I can re-spec if I mess up my build some how I will be happy with D4, keeping that closer to D3 will be nice.