Covenants will ruin Shadowlands.

[tru]

I just don't get them. I understand evolving...but business 101... What was successful and record breaking..vs the current trend. If it's not broke don't fix it. When experiments fail don't keep rehashing them with blizz turd polish premium service edition.

LK 12 mill peak subs 15 bucks a month... Math hard

BfA less than 3 mill? Naw let's keep going in current direction cause blizz logic.

Content droughts still exist Diablo systems are evermore prevalent.

We will get one talent and some cosmetics... If you pre-ordered YOU are part of the problem.

Hur Hur quit if you don't like it. I've played since the end of vanilla I love the game in a nostalgia sense I'm not top 1% so my voice doesn't matter. I just get angry when companies with so much potential do such stupid half-assed shit all the time and aren't held accountable.

[Penegal]

You do realise it's generally the tryhards who play the "right" spec but have no fucking clue what they're doing that can't provide, right?

at least they're trying a bit harder than the guy who gives 0 fucks

[Big Thanks]

Except claiming that them being unbalanced is a + or any sort of positive game design is just wrong. Its not designing anything to accomodate min-maxers, its designing it to still retain all of its uniqueness without making choosing a covenant involve anything but visual taste. Stop this nonsense.


RPG gameplay works in RPGS, WoW is an MMORPG, you are not a single player in a vaccum, you are being compared to others constantly and competing with other players. So these 'consequences' don't work in a competitive setting. Stop being ignorant.

Trying to demonize people who give a shit about their performance to make yourself look better actually ends up doing the opposite, you should stop. Covenant abilities being system-wide between all covenants literally isn't forcing anything on anyone as they haven't even been released you bonehead.

WoW is only competitive if you so choose to be "competitive".
And if you choose that...then pick the min max, BiS, imb4, 4head, pepega, amazing Covenant.

With LFR being the most participated raiding difficulty, is not a surprise the majority of WoW players are not "competitive".

And if you are...pick the damn pepega imb4 Covenant. What exactly is the problem?

How else would you make a "choice" in a videogame important with game design in WoW?
IMO Blizzard did a good job here...but they will prob change it because of you guys...

[Hitei]

I just don't get them. I understand evolving...but business 101... What was successful and record breaking..vs the current trend. If it's not broke don't fix it. When experiments fail don't keep rehashing them with blizz turd polish premium service edition.

LK 12 mill peak subs 15 bucks a month... Math hard

BfA less than 3 mill? Naw let's keep going in current direction cause blizz logic.

Content droughts still exist Diablo systems are evermore prevalent.

We will get one talent and some cosmetics... If you pre-ordered YOU are part of the problem.

Hur Hur quit if you don't like it. I've played since the end of vanilla I love the game in a nostalgia sense I'm not top 1% so my voice doesn't matter. I just get angry when companies with so much potential do such stupid half-assed shit all the time and aren't held accountable.

If Wrath released today it would be called the shittiest expansion in the history of the game.

[huth]

at least they're trying a bit harder than the guy who gives 0 fucks

And most of the time on the wrong things, which is why they aren't any good.

[Big Thanks]

If Wrath released today it would be called the shittiest expansion in the history of the game.

Humm...why do you think that?
Classic doubled or tripled the WoW subscriptions (cant remember)
And is virtually what you just said...

[Hitei]

Humm...why do you think that?
Classic doubled or tripled the WoW subscriptions (cant remember)
And is literally what you just said...

Classic did well at launch. It is also only viable because its specific niche is players who want to replay an existing thing or try something they heard about. It would also not work as new content.

Look at half the shit people whine about in BfA.

People think the faction war writing is bad and characters make dumb/out-of-character choices? Enjoy Arthas spending an entire expansion giving terrible speeches and deliberately losing the war for no reason at all, Malygos being retarded and then somehow losing to some drake and players despite having infinite magic. We won't even get into the nonsense that was the Argent Tournament. N'zoth was disappointing and did nothing for an Old God? Yogg whispered a handful of times, and then died the second he showed up in a secondary raid tier. Dalaran somehow forgot the Horde were slaughtering it's citizens a couple years before to steal things and welcomed them in.

Added systems are bad? Vehicles were shoved into every part of the game in wrath despite being near universally hated, Wintergrasp was an unbalanced mess on any server without a very closely balanced population, Glyphs were the ultimate in no real player choice here's a bunch of stuff that is either baseline required to fix a class/spec or is completely useless. It added a BG so fucking bad and universally disliked they ultimately just removed it from the game.

Content is lazy and devs cut corners? Lol, trying pulling that Naxx 2.0 shit in 2020 in a new expansion. An entire raid tier copy pasted from an old raid tier, with the same bosses, mobs, most of the same items, and very slightly updated armor. And then imagine a second tier that takes place in two rooms.

Nazjatar and Mechagon are bad and double down on bad systems? Enjoy god awful Argent tourney dailies and even more vehicle shit, with the only added region being that crappy Vrykul daily hub north of Icecrown.

There's no good world content or endgame stuff to do outside of raiding/mythic+? Enjoy nothing to do at all outside of dailies and spamming heroics, with little to no world content at all.

If you released Wrath in the current era it would be hated to a degree that can't even be expressed.

[Aucald]

If Wrath released today it would be called the shittiest expansion in the history of the game.

Which is pretty much what WotLK was heralded as when it was released, as I recall. The common refrains were "this game has been dumbed down to the point of senselessness," "DK's are a terrible addition to the game, totally faceroll," "what a shitty idea," etc. etc.

[Sylv_]

I don't either, you don't or the next person.

I defs do. I'm in the know.

[FelPlague]

If Wrath released today it would be called the shittiest expansion in the history of the game.

Correct, for many people it was what "ruined wow" as people loved to point out a game that had been constantly growing, was now stagnating. Pair that with wotlk bringing in THE MOST changes to the system of the game, and with this many players complained, left, and still call wotlk the worst expac to date.

LFD, removing "server identity" from dungeons, and making them hilariously sad content.

Raid difficulties and differet raid sizes, leading to this whole issue of a single raid having 2-4 modes you have to do, instead of just "we killed lich king" did you kill him 10? 10 heroic? 25? 25 heroic? This also made raiding easier as anyone coudl do 10 man icc, and in 25 you could easily carry a person or two. cause of multiple sizes and difficulties.

Far easier leveling, and the class quests being made hilariously easy

Our first reusing of not 1, but 2 raids.

Death knights were a shit fest the ENTIRE expansion, all three specs could dps, and tank, and for the first 6 months of the expansion DK's were the best class, every so often becoming weaker and weaker, but they were still the best for a long time.

Timegating was increased, to limited raid attempts, and icc taking 2 months for all the wings to be unlocked. timegating was in the game, but it was not to this extent.

dailies were massivly increased, tons of power being locked behind dailies, where with tbc it was not NEEDED, like it was in wotlk.

world pvp basically ruined, with it all relegated to 1 single zone, instead of in vanilla it being everywhere (cause of no flying) and in tbc it being in a fair few locations cause of the world pvp system they had (capture points that gave faction wide buffs)

Acheivements, something many people blame for the game being so toxic, cause now its all "just acheivement whores and collectors, no longer getting things cause they want them, but because they want imaginary points" which i would say is quite true, you would not want to know how much gold/time/etc i have spent to collect mounts, pets, toys, transmogs, that i will NEVER EVER use, but just got them so that bar could be closer to full.

and more, like other then vanilla (Demon hunter), its the only expansion with something that had something on the box, that was not added during its expansion.
WOTLK is the ONLY expansion that has something on its box that STILL is not in the game to this day.

- - - Updated - - -

Way ahead of you. I'm channeling my inner weeb with ffxiv (no I'm not a bunny girl). Since we're don't even have a beta. It's FAR to early to tell how Covenants will affect the game.

Rent ability isn't what's hurting wow. It's the amount of RNG and the classes just not being fun. Azerite had just been awful. The neck has been awful. Essences have been awful. I quit before 8.3

So covenents are not going to ruin shadowlands, as you just said, rent abilities arnt hurting wow, its the RNG (Which is being fixed in shadowlands) Classes not being fun? I mean tons of classes are fun. Azerite been awful? I mean its fine, it was rough at the start, but now its super good. Neck has been fine. And essences have been great, oh my god, you have to earn stuff, thats so horrible.

But essences are literally what people have been asking for, a max level progression that is not RNG, that is garunteed as long as you put in the work, you know how close you are to the essence, you control your progress and can see how close/far you are, the only RNG part of the essences is the legendary rank. which is just cosmetic.

[nyc81991]

if wotlk was released today it would fail...
or you think people who complain that 8.3 is "terribly empty patch" wouldnt complain about 3.1 and 3.2 where we get raid and dailies and that was it?

wotlk was great, but it wasnt gaining subs, it was stagnating, most subs were aquired in vanila/tbc because the game was new... and it LOST a lot of subs in that time too, if you think about the fact that over 100m accounts were created since start till january 2014 (pandaria) yet the game at its peak had 12m, that should tell you how many players actualy tried and left over time...

wow was always bleeding subs, just for the first few years it was gaining them faster than loosing them (which is pretty standard for any product rly), but that changed in wotlk

I'm not sure where you got your info from but Wotlk saw huge sub gains that actually continued into early Cata. So you are very wrong there. And to your assumption that Wotlk would fail if released today, all you have to do is look at Classic to see that isn't true at all (Wotlk makes Classic look like shit).

[keldarepewpew]

We dont even have our hands on the beta yet for all we know this iteration doesnt even have covenants anymore jeezes.

[Kralljin]

N'zoth was disappointing and did nothing for an Old God? Yogg whispered a handful of times, and then died the second he showed up in a secondary raid tier.

Mate, N'zoth was a decade in the making.
Yogg wasn't even a thing until 3.0.

It was supposed to be the Old God *at full full power*, within a zone that easily could have been a full fledged outdoor zone similiar to Argus, yet was reduced to a single raid.

Also, Yogg was a better encounter for its time.
N'zoth is "See, just like Yogg, right?!" except worse.

Added systems are bad? Vehicles were shoved into every part of the game in wrath despite being near universally hated

Vehicles aren't on the same level of system as BfA.
Vehicles is something that Blizzard tried and then simply stopped doing, mid expansion, because there wasn't any central content or progression tied to vehicles, they didn't have to some salvage that system.

That's the major difference, in BfA, you just couldn't turn a blind eye towards systems such as Azerite, it was an omnipresent system.
Didn't like the Argent Tournament? As long as you're not a collector, you can pretty much ignore it, in BfA, so much more content has power gains, whether you like that content or not.

Content is lazy and devs cut corners? Lol, trying pulling that Naxx 2.0 shit in 2020 in a new expansion. An entire raid tier copy pasted from an old raid tier, with the same bosses, mobs, most of the same items, and very slightly updated armor.

Not like many people could claim that they've done when it Naxx was actually current content and they followed up with one of the highly regarded raids ever, so there's that.
For 99% of all players, it was new content.

That's kinda the difference, raids were an exclusive experience in Vanilla / TBC, but since Wotlk and especially the introduction of LFR, raids as content are anything but exclusive.

[Beefhammer]

Dude, they would have to be shitty friends, if they were mad because one person in a raid of 20 people was doing 2% less damage than they could. Either that or they'd have to be incredibly bad at maths. If you can't get past a boss because a SINGLE DPS from over a dozen DPS is doing 100% damage, not 102%, and you're blaming that DPS, you're not just a shitty friend, you're truly clueless at WoW, terrible at maths, and probably at life. I mean that is sad... seriously sad.

I mean, can you imagine? 50 attempts of fail and people are made at a single DPSer doing 2% less damage. Can you even calculate how small of a difference that is? Even you got past the boss one time with the "right" talent, it would be luck, not skill, that got you there, because sort of variation in DPS is much smaller than that which might be caused by lag, or a dude being slightly slow, or fat-fingering the wrong ability or whatever, or standing in the bad slightly too long, preventing a healer from doing damage.

I can, but I gave up that life for a more casual raiding group. Killed shit, but way later than most progression guilds and more often after nerfs/buffs or seriously outgearing encounters. Was much better raiding and hanging out with friends for fun that worrying about numbers and stressing ove stupid shit like server rankings and whatever they have now.

[Th3Scourge]

It worries me being locked into one covenant, being a min-maxxer, and I was strongly against being locked in when covenants were announced, but I'm not too concerned now, I'll just adjust my gameplay and expectations accordingly. I don't really pug much anyway so I'm not fussed about groups forming for M+ or whatever requiring specific covenants only

[Lolites]

I'm not sure where you got your info from but Wotlk saw huge sub gains that actually continued into early Cata. So you are very wrong there. And to your assumption that Wotlk would fail if released today, all you have to do is look at Classic to see that isn't true at all (Wotlk makes Classic look like shit).

yeah, milions of people flee to classic ...and then left... latest numers from consensus and other sources (i know its not precise but better than going by feelings) is around 400k, sure its a lot, but nowhere near what vanila had, same would be for wotlk...

as for wotlk numbers...it isnt true? try using google before spewing bullshit...
http://powerwordgold.blogspot.com/20...2005-2013.html

wotlk sub numbers were flat as hell most of the time, had a little step at begining and at end (in expectations of cata i would assume)

[nyc81991]

yeah, milions of people flee to classic ...and then left... latest numers from consensus and other sources (i know its not precise but better than going by feelings) is around 400k, sure its a lot, but nowhere near what vanila had, same would be for wotlk...

as for wotlk numbers...it isnt true? try using google before spewing bullshit...
http://powerwordgold.blogspot.com/20...2005-2013.html

wotlk sub numbers were flat as hell most of the time, had a little step at begining and at end (in expectations of cata i would assume)

WoW hit 12 million players during Wotlk. The highest count the game had seen up to that point. So yes, Wotlk grew subs and they did not stay "stagnant" after TBC. Maybe you should stop"spewing bullshit" like -

wotlk was great, but it wasnt gaining subs, it was stagnating

[tristannarutofan]

oooh my god, shut up and get a hobby

[huth]

WoW hit 12 million players during Wotlk. The highest count the game had seen up to that point. So yes, Wotlk grew subs and they did not stay "stagnant" after TBC. Maybe you should stop"spewing bullshit" like -

Yet that this means sub numbers not only stagnated, but fell during WotLK seems to be lost on you.

[Lolites]

WoW hit 12 million players during Wotlk. The highest count the game had seen up to that point. So yes, Wotlk grew subs and they did not stay "stagnant" after TBC. Maybe you should stop"spewing bullshit" like -

seriously? did you even open the graph or you are just unable to read it?
in TBC sub numbers raiser by over 37% compared to start of expansion, in wotlk by 4%...
Wotlk kept at 11.5m players FOR SEVEN QUARTERS, thats majority of its lifetime and its a goddamn definition of stagnation...
damn, the transition form cata to mop have higher increase in sub than anything that happened during wotlk...