Is Classic too easy?

[Caerrona]

@Caerrona

I want to hear you say it.
Say it.

Say BfA was the culprit for WoW in general having more than twice as many subs as BfA did in Q2.

I want to print screen it and show to my WoW classic friends later
@arkanon you can also join and tell us BFA was the reason why WoW managed to have more than double its subs
This is hilarious

Are you that emotional? You said you want me to tell you that bfa has twice the subs of bfa? All your emotes and "come on say it bro" means is that you are super mega tilted and from other posts iv seen probably crying atm.

just stop... get some help

[Big Thanks]

You are completely clueless - you have massively misinterpreted absolutely every single statement Blizzard have made, you are making an absolute fool out of yourself. Not once have you provided a link to ANYTHING you have claimed - after numerous requests for sources of ANY of your claims, you are yet to provide even a single one - this is because you are completely wrong about literally everything you have said. Its beyond embarrassing at this point - its like seeing a terrible car wreck on the side of the road - we want to look away, but we just cant.

Provide a single shred of evidence to back up your claim that "classic has double the player-base of retail", and let the REAL classic fans and players continue the discussion like adults.

What Blizzard actually said - they picked two dates, one before the release of classic, and one after - they then said the that between the first date, and the second, the number of subs had doubled - you unsurprisingly attributed 100% of those new subs to classic. Somehow, god knows how, you took this to mean classic had DOUBLE the subs of retail - an absolutely ludicrous claim, and not what Blizzard said AT ALL.

Since then, data suggests there has been AT LEAST a 65% drop in subscriptions, with a small increase between two other months - VERY likely to be attributed to RETAIL, considering it matches up with the pending release of a major content patch and new raid.

I want to make this very clear for you: If you have 100, and it doubles, that is 200, NOT 300 as you are trying to claim.

Quote me where i said classic has double the subs of BfA...im waiting.

I said this just now:

I mean in January first Classic brought to the game as many players as modern wow had at the time.

Yes im saying the majority of new players were because of classic. Have a problem with that?

Visions of Nzoth release January 14th

The idea BfA RANDOMLY doubled its subs without a content patch. Only you arkanon This hilarious stuff could only come from you

[arkanon]

-Even if it lost many players...it still doubled the BfA players by January 1st.

Why am i wrong?

There - Thats where you said it doubled bfas players. Right there.

- - - Updated - - -

Quote me where i said classic has double the subs of BfA...im waiting.

Wait no longer kiddo.


iM wAiTiNg

[Big Thanks]

There - Thats where you said it doubled bfas subs. Right there.

Dude...i was trying to say the wow playerbase doubled. Stop trying to troll. You know exactly that wasnt what i meant.
Now explain me how BfA "content" randomly doubled WoW subs without a content patch.

[arkanon]

Dude...i was trying to say the wow playerbase doubled. Stop trying to troll. You know exactly that wasnt what i meant.
Now explain me how BfA "content" randomly doubled WoW subs without a content patch.

So you are now redacting your previous claims? I am shocked - shocked and amazed that you would distance yourself from such a ridiculous claim. Now explain to me how a major content drop and a holiday season would not bring BfA players back. No, im sure you are right, no one ever resubs until the DAY of a new patch. No one ever says "hay, that shit looks pretty good - im gonna use my xmas holiday break to level some alts and get my main ready for this major content patch and new raid!"

iM wAiTiNG

[Caerrona]

Dude...i was trying to say the wow playerbase doubled. Stop trying to troll. You know exactly that wasnt what i meant.
Now explain me how BfA "content" randomly doubled WoW subs without a content patch.

You are pulling numbers from different different times and putting them together (poorly) to make up a story.

Yes classic had massive subs on launch.
Yes alot of those people quit.
Yes more are going to quit.
No it doesnt make it a bad game or any less than it is.

You use Q2 as an example. We arnt in Q2 yet of 2020. So unless you mean 2019 then yes we all agree that classic had alot of subs. Now the 2020 report is that 65% of those unsubbed. Deal with it or not idc, it obviously effects you mentally that classic has less subs than bfa.

[munkeyinorbit]

There - Thats where you said it doubled bfas players. Right there.

- - - Updated - - -



Wait no longer kiddo.


iM wAiTiNg

Holy shit. I have never seen someone so REKT on these forums since GC did the "There's nothing wrong with Cata, people need 2 GIT GUD" backlash. Maybe there should be something like a pity ban where people get a mandatory break after such an incident as this.

- - - Updated - - -

how is saying bwl is harder than mythic in bfa NOT trolling?this isnt an issue about agree or disagree,its as silly as saying shit tastes better than caviar

That analogy is ridiculous but anyway, is that why flies eat caviar? It's all down to personal preference. Just because you can't handle it doesn't mean we have to listen to you rant.

[Big Thanks]

So you are now redacting your previous claims? I am shocked - shocked and amazed that you would distance yourself from such a ridiculous claim. Now explain to me how a major content drop and a holiday season would not bring BfA players back. No, im sure you are right, no one ever resubs until the DAY of a new patch. No one ever says "hay, that shit looks pretty good - im gonna use my xmas holiday break to level some alts and get my main ready for this major content patch and new raid!"

iM wAiTiNG

Where was the Holiday sub rise in Cataclysm?
Where was the Holiday sub rise in MoP?
Where was the Holiday sub rise in Draenor?

But no, BfA is special.
BfA is such an amazing expansion it manages to do incredible things on its own merit. Never before seen.

[Caerrona]

Where was the Holiday sub rise in Cataclysm?
Where was the Holiday sub rise in MoP?
Where was the Holiday sub rise in Draenor?

But no, BfA is special.
BfA is such an amazing expansion it manages to do incredible things on its own merit. Never before seen.

There you go again cherry picking info. Subs went up 17% in december even if it was just classic, its down 65% from launch. So any more numbers you got stashed away that you can pull out?

Maybe some from Q2 2045? lol

[arkanon]

Where was the Holiday sub rise in Cataclysm?
Where was the Holiday sub rise in MoP?
Where was the Holiday sub rise in Draenor?

But no, BfA is special.
BfA is such an amazing expansion it manages to do incredible things on its own merit. Never before seen.

And yet...........you attribute it to classic without being able to provide any logical reasoning why?

[Ielenia]

I mean in January first Classic brought to the game as many players as modern wow had at the time.

Or you think BfA is so special it brought all this player in?
You think it was BfA magic?

So, this is how it's going to be? First you go:

First calm down and please try to make a point and tell me what you are trying to say.

And when I "calm down" and ask for clarifications as well as sources from you, so you and I have a better understand of each other's position... you not only don't provide anything, but you also act all condescending?

Where is this "common sense" you're talking about? Not to mention "common sense" as an argument in a discussion about facts is a big load of bull, since "common sense" goes by what's popular, not by what's true.

I'm going to repost the math @Soikona did here:
Let's start with an assumption that WoW had 100 players by August, right before Classic WoW. 100 is nowhere near the amount of players the game had at the time, it's just an easy number to calculate. Also, when I write "WoW" I mean both Classic and Modern WoW combined. With that said:

• WoW has 100 players by the time Classic launches.
• WoW gained a 223% subscription increase during the launch of Classic WoW.
• An increase of 223% means 223 new players. Which brings us to a total of 323 WoW players.
• WoW then lost 64% of their subs in the period between August 2019 and January 2020.
• 64% of 323 is 206 (rounded down).
• 323 players (during Classic launch) minus 206 players (lost during the period between August and January) equals the total player population being down to 117 by January.
• That means, from before Classic launch to new year's, WoW went from 100 subs, to 117 subs. A 17% total increase.

Classic WoW did not "double" WoW's playerbase by January 1st. It didn't "double it from December to January". Didn't even increase it by a quarter.

And on top of that, let's re-read what you wrote here:

https://www.superdataresearch.com/bl...l-games-market

AND it reads:
"Subscriber numbers grew 17% from December to January (not including China). However, they were still down substantially (64%) from August 2019, the month World of Warcraft Classic was released."

17% increase from December to January. That means that the loss during August to December was greater than 64%. A little napkin math, using our earlier numbers: 117 players during January.

January players are December players + 17%. January = December + December(17/100). so the math goes:
• January players: 117
• December players: x

117 = x + 17x/100
117 = 100x/100 + 17x/100
117 = 117x/100
117 * 100 = 117x
11700 = 117x
11700/117 = x
100 = x

What does that tell us? December's sub count was the same as pre-Classic's sub count. Meaning: All the sub gains from Classic launch were lost during the period between August and December!

And you still want to insist on this "Classic WoW more than doubled WoW's subs on January" nonsense?!

[Big Thanks]

@Ielenia

How did WoW doubled its players in January 1st (compared to Q2 2019) and at the same time lost all players it had on August?
Thats all im asking. How is it possible?

You did not present math of super data COMBINED with what blizzard said.

You only presented us with super data info we all already knew.

[Caerrona]

@Ielenia

How did WoW doubled its players in January 1st (compared to Q2 2019) and at the same time lost all players it had on August?
Thats all im asking. How is it possible?

You did not present math of super data COMBINED with what blizzard said.

You only presented us with super data info we all already knew.

"Another great example of our franchise transformation is what happened with Warcraft. We doubled the size of the active World of Warcraft community in the SECOND HALF of 2019 by adding Classic to the WoW subscription offering."

From the earnings call. Try again though. "In the second half of 2019" aka when classic launched subs doubled and then tanked and stabilized. Keep pulling more numbers though and blindly trusting them.

Blizzard is not gonna say "well classic had to much hype and bled subs after the first month but it doubled subs for a little bit i guess."

Ill still enjoy it though, 36% of launch is still 36% of retail. If it double subs. Good enough for me.

[Soikona]

except Blizzard said the numbers doubled in january 1st
And super data said in january 1st they droped 60-something %.

What now?

You do know Blizzard said “active players”. That literally can mean anything, hell my sub was cancelled, and still is, but I log on to the free version occasionally to just jump around stormwind when I get tempted to come back (then realise nah, so waiting for next expansion), so I would be considered “an active player”.

[Big Thanks]

You do know Blizzard said “active players”. That literally can mean anything, hell my sub was cancelled, and still is, but I log on to the free version occasionally to just jump around stormwind when I get tempted to come back (then realise nah, so waiting for next expansion), so I would be considered “an active player”.

Blizzard specified in the report "active player community" means "players with monthly or longer-term subscriptions"
https://investor.activision.com/stat...3-7f5aec4ea3ea

If you read the (3)

Its basically someone with a 1month sub or more

[Dalinos]

LFR N'zoth is a complete wipefest even after the hotfix that stops a third of the raid from getting MCd on pull, does that mean it is hard content?

Ofc not, it means people are blithering idiots Same with BWL in current classic. A guild of responsible & decent players will 1shot, a guild of idiots will wipe. Doesn't matter if it's LFR N'zoth or Firemaw, if you're a responsible & decent raider you WILL get the content down. If you're not, you won't. That hasn't changed in 16 years of WoW, it won't change anytime soon ;D

I remember in TBC days and WOTLK days, there were multiple guilds clearing Karazhan, SSC/TK, BT/Hyjal. Just a couple were successful in SWP. Same in WOTLK. Multiple guilds clearing Naxx, TOTC, ICC. Ulduar was it's own story, where the most casual of casual of 10mans could kill bosses if they were good (on normal mode), and the most hardcore raiding guilds were attempting Hodir hardmode, Mimiron hardmode, Freya hardmode and 0-1 lights in the darkness. Ofc, not everyone killed LK25HC either, but many killed LK25 normal or LK10 normal or LK10HC.

What do we see from this? That the difficulty of content doesn't really matter at the end of the day. Raid completion is pretty much always characterised by a bell-shaped, Normal Distribution curve. The really shitty players won't clear shit, (except LFR) the mediocre players will clear most (if not all, given time & end-of-expansion nerfs a la ICC/SWP/Dragonsoul), the exceptional players will clear all. That's how it's always been, that's how it always will be.

[Ielenia]

@Ielenia

How did WoW doubled its players in January 1st (compared to Q2 2019) and at the same time lost all players it had on August?
Thats all im asking. How is it possible?

You did not present math of super data COMBINED with what blizzard said.

You only presented us with super data info we all already knew.

"Q2", a.k.a. "second quarter", a.k.a "April, May, June".

There is still the whole period between early July and August to account for.

On top of that, we're still stuck with the very likely possibility that entire the subscription boost that came during Classic launch was already lost by the time December rolled by, if my "back of the envelope" calculations are correct. At least going by your information.

Which means that the period of June and August did see a subscription increase, which is likely unrelated to Classic WoW since it hasn't launched yet, back then.

[d00mh4cker]

The issue with classic that made me quit is that it's.

Too easy, no challange.
No content outside raiding.
No PvP.
Boring and slow gameplay.

Coming back to retail and doing some arenas and mythic plus felt very good coming from classic

52% out of 10573 guilds have cleared Ny'Alotha on normal.
56% out of 10759 guilds have cleared Ny'Alotha on heroic.
2% out of 4136 guilds have cleared Ny'Alotha on mythic.

87% out of 12881 guilds have cleared BWL.

[arkanon]

The issue with classic that made me quit is that it's.

Too easy, no challange.
No content outside raiding.
No PvP.
Boring and slow gameplay.

Coming back to retail and doing some arenas and mythic plus felt very good coming from classic

52% out of 10573 guilds have cleared Ny'Alotha on normal.
56% out of 10759 guilds have cleared Ny'Alotha on heroic.
2% out of 4136 guilds have cleared Ny'Alotha on mythic.

87% out of 12881 guilds have cleared BWL.

I havnt looked into the exact numbers much, what i know is taht when you Exclude any guild that has completed 6/12 (for example) on a higher difficulty, the numbers change again. Not sure if this was taken into account. What i mean is a lot of the guilds that are 12/12N and 12/12H are 7/12 Mythic (for example).

As to your swapping to retail, this is the right thing to do based on your feedback - nothing in classic will challenge you, and the pvp doesnt really change now that BGs are out - so what you see is what you get, and if you dont enjoy it, you have done the right thing.

[Molvonos]

This really shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone.

In all seriousness, Classic is fundamentally flawed by the sheer virtue of it being rehashed content.

As someone who played WoW since Closed Beta, I jumped into Classic with a friend of mine who wore rose tinted glasses (Nostalgia). He is much younger than I and was, unsurprisingly, much younger when WoW came out, so he didn't get to participate in Raiding/High-End PvP. I warned him of several things.

1. The game is incredibly slow, even slower than you might imagine. He went with a hunter while I played priest, to give him heals in case he needed it. I warned him of several 'flaws' (things that we complained about to blizzard back in the day, that were fixed due to discussion with very active devs/mods). Such as, but not limited to: buying quivers/ammo (less gold for skills), hunter 'dead zone' and being forced to melee, feeding pets, etc. I had all my skills by level 8 (where we stopped, which i'll get into), while he had to grind gol--err, copper, to try and afford it. I helped him by giving him what meager funds I had.

2. The surprise is gone. One thing that made WoW (and any mmo back in that time) fantastic was the idea that it was a fresh, new world that everyone was experiencing for the first time. You built your communities on vaguely general goals and helped each other because you didn't, normally, have the foggiest idea what you were doing. Doing the Ironforge run, as a Night Elf, for example, was scary as hell, even though dying in WoW wasn't even remotely as punishing as Everquest (which me and my best friends had just come from). Not only is the surprise gone for retail (they have shit datamined and streamers in the betas of every expansion showing off everything, never mind this website), but WoW Classic hasn't been new for what, 16 years? 18?

As an addendum, people are hoping, if not desperately clinging to the idea of a 'Classic+'. I can't see the future, but I'm willing to bet a fair share of fake internet points that Blizzard isn't going to push time, effort, and most importantly, money, to developing a whole new 'ip' that splits this particular franchise, especially with our new Google overlord a COO. (Important, this is an opinion).

3. The community doesn't exist anymore. The people you 'grew up with' in WoW 'Classic' are generally adults now. They have lives, jobs, kids, manimals, whatever draws their time. There are exceptions, of course, but a fair share of people coming to Classic are definitely a different breed of players. The inherent toxicity so many claim occurs in retail, has been occurring in the myriad of multiplayer games for the last 10+ years. You're still going to get ninjalooters, you're still going to get griefers (especially in pvp), you're gonna get all the same shit we hated back when WoW came out, in ADDITION to the new vestiges of cancer that spring up.

As a result, we played to level 8 before he gave up. We'd just gotten to Dolanaar. He, as a 20+ year old, didn't have the time or the patience to drudge through that and I definitely don't, since i'm a late bloomer when it comes to college, plus full time work and other social obligations.

We're perfectly fine playing retail though, since we can squeak out small gains here and there when we find the time to play.

----

Also -- while it seems that TBC is the next, logical step, keep in mind that they may not put forth the time or money needed to bringing the code up-to-date. Especially when there were a plethora of changes that occurred between Classic and TBC (also, which patch would they start TBC on? Like Classic started on 12.1ish).

I have a feeling that this *Handwaves* Classic is all you guys are getting.