1. #15581
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    About 1/3 of the US populace say they will follow Trump no matter what throwing in jail won't do anything second Biden has already signaled he is against pursuing Trump in any ways though he will let his AG have free reign. The most likely scenario for the milk toast candidate is the same thing Obama did do nothing in order for the country to "move on".

    Joe is not going to rock the boat he isn't going to go after the progressive wing either his entire thing is returning to normalcy. Joe Biden won't be deciding the next generation of leadership if those perfect plans worked then AOC would not be in congress. You keep attributing traits to Biden that he doesn't have, the best you can hope for is state prosecutors going after the Trump crime syndicate.
    It is as if the entire fanfiction is that once Veto Joe gets in office there will be laws and policy put in place to let the CIA approve of any candidate, and find some way to make it illegal to vote against the Establishment; oh and we will have prosecution against everyone and everything that dared to say "Actually this shit sucks" and he can watch Sanders die by firing squad for suggesting a National Health Service is important.

    It is a wild view of the world, but I doubt Joe would even be that interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  2. #15582
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    I don't see value in them as voters. According to polling / demographic data, few enough of them live in the six states that matter and will decide the election.
    Remind me again how many voters decided the last election?

  3. #15583
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    I wouldn't mind in the slightest if the DNC realized that how bad a decision it was to put all their eggs in the Biden basket and throw up a brand new moderate (I'd even take Warren!) at the convention. For no other reason than to keep Republicans on their toes, to let them waste time and energy tearing down Biden or Bernie only for the DNC to pick someone else.
    I think Warren has badly damaged her brand on the Left; and made some seriously bone headed mistakes politically and even some of her policy is kinda funky when looked at rather closely. BUT she is at least kinda likable, and I do refuse to believe that the person who wrote The Two Income Trap has become the current Warren and that she is currently stuck surrounded by some of the most idiotic advisors and campaign staff one can imagine. I am unsure if her bad calls are totally her own, or the work of those around her.

    Warren COULD pull a surprise run later, could be a complete sellout and craven, could be simply tactically doing the best she thinks she can right now, of trying to survive in an environment of absolute corruption and just hoping she can find some path over the finish line without being nuked to hell by the primary processes itself.

    My hope is if she somehow got out there, and made it and the party picked her over dementia Joe, she reveals that it was all deep cover psyops and that this is a Two Income Trap Warren all along. Though her statements on Single-Payer and even her more recent plan give little confidence.

    Warren however would be just enough "I get something out of this" to justify a vote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  4. #15584
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    Quite frankly I was hoping the DNC primary would last longer. I was hoping Warren would have a much better showing (picking up sizable portions of both progressives and moderates). I was hoping Pete had more passion and wouldn't be a sellout and would pick up more of the moderate vote. Mostly to keep the Republicans guessing until the end, so that there wouldn't be months and months of attacks on one specific candidate. Sort of like the 3-way between Hillary/Obama/Edwards (now there's a dirty image for all ya) back in 2008.
    Yeah, there's this weird idea among everyone involved that if this goes all the way to the convention, or even much longer than now, the DEMOCRAT PARTY WILL BE HOPELESSLY FRACTURED AND LOSE TO TRUMP. This is often cited as the scapegoat for 2016 failures, if they're not outright blaming Sanders supporters, or any other of a wide variety of things.

    Which takes me back to 2008 when Hillary and Obama ran it out to just before the convention, and because the democratic party was so hopelessly divided just a few months before the general, we had to endure 8 years of President McCain. Really dark times in our history that I'm glad we got through.

  5. #15585
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    This is basically the most salient point on the whole "Return to Normalcy".
    As I do in real life I tell to the MAGA folks: You can't go backwards. The past is done. You can't go there again. You have to move forward.

    Democrats want to pretend Trump didn't happen. They want to stick their heads in the sand and pretend the reasons Trump happened don't exist. Pretend the people who voted for him don't matter or aren't real. At least Trump's catchphrase forces people to make a startling admission Americans are wont to do. "America isn't great right now." and that "America used to be great." There is a depressing realization here that we've done better and that we need to do better, unfortunately their reasoning behind why it was great and why it isn't great is horribly sexist, racist and downright awful.

    But there's still that admission that we've fallen from glory. Which as a political scientist, is amazing to see Americans admit. The idea that America is perfect and nothing needs to be fixed/changed/improved is a massive stumbling block in our development as a nation.

    Trump's catchphrase, as awful as the people backing it are, at least was forward-looking(even if the people used it to be backwards-looking). "We're not great, and we need to be great again." The Democrats on the other hand just want to turn the clock backwards. Not "lets never make this mistake again" but "lets pretend none of this happened". And it's sad. And it's not very motivational, or catchy, or inspiring, or forcing Americans to admit they made a mistake. So Americans can continue to pretend they don't make mistakes. And that is a very dangerous attitude.
    Last edited by Sunseeker; 2020-03-14 at 04:10 PM.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

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  6. #15586
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapemask View Post
    Yeah, there's this weird idea among everyone involved that if this goes all the way to the convention, or even much longer than now, the DEMOCRAT PARTY WILL BE HOPELESSLY FRACTURED AND LOSE TO TRUMP. This is often cited as the scapegoat for 2016 failures, if they're not outright blaming Sanders supporters, or any other of a wide variety of things.

    Which takes me back to 2008 when Hillary and Obama ran it out to just before the convention, and because the democratic party was so hopelessly divided just a few months before the general, we had to endure 8 years of President McCain. Really dark times in our history that I'm glad we got through.
    Skroe's problem is he's a Republican, and he wants the DNC to behave like Republicans: everyone get behind a candidate that the Party (read: Skroe) picks and shut up and support them.

    Sure I can't say I wouldn't love that, but it ain't gonna happen. Democrats just don't operate like that. But we typically get our shit together by election day.

    Going all the way to the Convention is bad if all we're doing is tearing each other apart up to that point. We don't need to be doing the Republicans job for them. But if we've honest-to-goodness got two or more folks who are presenting two very real alternatives either ideologically or policy-wise or both, that's good, keep that going till the end. Having that kind of discussion is good and healthy.

    And that's the danger of all this "we just need to beat Trump" talk. That's the danger of this "return to normalcy" talk. It keeps us from having those kind of policy discussions about where the party is headed and how we need to get there.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  7. #15587
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    As I do in real life I tell to the MAGA folks: You can't go backwards. The past is done. You can't go there again. You have to move forward.

    Democrats want to pretend Trump didn't happen. They want to stick their heads in the sand and pretend the reasons Trump happened don't exist. Pretend the people who voted for him don't matter or aren't real. At least Trump's catchphrase forces people to make a startling admission Americans are wont to do. "America isn't great right now." and that "America used to be great." There is a depressing realization here that we've done better and that we need to do better, unfortunately their reasoning behind why it was great and why it isn't great is horribly sexist, racist and downright awful.

    But there's still that admission that we've fallen from glory. Which as a political scientist, is amazing to see Americans admit. The idea that America is perfect and nothing needs to be fixed/changed/improved is a massive stumbling block in our development as a nation.

    Trump's catchphrase, as awful as the people backing it were, at least was forward-looking(even if the people used it to be backwards-looking). "We're not great, and we need to be great again." The Democrats on the other hand just want to turn the clock backwards. Not "lets never make this mistake again" but "lets pretend none of this happened". And it's sad. And it's not very motivational, or catchy, or inspiring, or forcing Americans to admit they made a mistake. So Americans can continue to pretend they don't make mistakes. And that is a very dangerous attitude.
    Nothing in this I'd disagree with.

    "Returning to Normalcy" is embedded within it basically a total rejection of the idea that anything at all is bad in the United States; which would require IMHO literal blindness or severe low information brain to believe. MAGA, for all its faults had within it a logic you describe, that of actually doing something about the real material blight of the United States. American's admitting this country isn't currently the greatest single place ever, that actually this is a blighted place right now and we need to become better, we need to build something is profound in that way. Americans, especially boomer Americans, were publicly saying America wasn't awesome. Specifically Fox News watching Boomer Americans were saying this and embedding the logic in their brains. I personally did not expect the former John Steward Daily Show watching crowd to become Establishmentarians whom believed "Our sacred institutions!" and somehow become beltway dweebs, I did sincerely get taken aback by that. Watching people who said "No Blood for Oil!" during GWB presidency now post Henry Kissinger quotes and be very concerned and stan FBI and CIA goons is a trip.

    In the end, Trump himself is to me the least interesting or important thing going on right now. Buried in all this swirling noise is the fact that you either think the United States is basically a Gods Blessed Paradise with zero faults of its own, and likely any discontent is merely malcontents who lack sufficient piety in Americas Sacred Mission (TM) or people duped by dangerous foreign agents seeking to undermine the greatest holy empire on Earth, OR, you believe the United States is a gruesomely corrupt oligarchy with failed institutions, no services of any functional use for the masses and widespread poverty, drug dependency, debt and mental illness, where job security doesn't exist and entire generation is consigned to misery and won't have families or homes because we just decided that feeding the young to the proverbial Moloch for some extra GDP and stock valuations is a higher priority.

    If the United States is Gods Holy Empire on Earth, here to lead the world into the last, final and perfect way of life and culture, than sure "Return to Normalcy" makes some sense. After all any negativity is just some foreigner plot to undermine peoples absolute devotion and faith in the Great Work of America. If instead you look at America and see a festering Nurgle Rot, that the institutions actually caused this shit, that the country actually has serious long term chronic problems and that a lot of it, if not all of it, is political decision driven done internally and that people are abjectly suffering, than you really can't buy into that "Return to Normalcy" logic. For many Americans "Normalcy" being returned to is a return to hopeless agony with no conceivable end in sight.

    Even if you make a case for short term harm reduction, you essentially are consigning oneself to a repeat of the Trump moment. As the "Harm Reduction" case only works if you believe "Yes America is fucked up" but also "If we have some Normalcy maybe at least the people benefiting from the fucking up of America can breath". Back in 2016, the metaphor I used was California wildfires to describe this moment. The longer one delays a burn in the forest, the worse the inevitable fire will be. Things weren't managed well, decisions were made that actually made the forests sick and unhealthy, real policy was enacted that sincerely was believed to be good but actually was killing the forests; finally the rot had built up and BOOM fires, bad fires. We continue to try to just get back to the pre-wildfire normal, but the pre-wildfire normal CAUSED the wildfires, and the more we fight to "go back to normal" the worse the fires become. My stance on Biden is that a Biden presidency would assure a future Trump but significantly more morbid, one that would make Skroe look back longingly at this current Trump and probably say "He was actually a good president".

    I even early responded to Skroe, asking Exactly WHAT are you asking people to sacrifice for? Like NED says "I want government that does stuff" but doesn't elucidate that stuff, why M4A isn't that stuff that it should do. Buried in their Anti-Sanders push is basically "Give up all those tangible material benefits for Not-Trump, and um the Sacredness of our Institutions.... and a Government that ummm does something." like the heck does any of that even mean? You are right, Biden on this Not-Platform is screwed. Between having zero reason to be president other than Not-Trump (Sanders ALSO isn't Trump and actually wants to do something with the presidency) and probably having dementia, how on Earth is this a guy that is going to be really worth voting for?
    Last edited by Theodarzna; 2020-03-14 at 05:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  8. #15588
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Also, just gonna toss this out there: as much as Biden's approach of being a giant hug to the country makes us feel good, the stock market crashing, people stockpiling goods, stores being sold out, the government giving billions to corporations and being stingy AF to everyone else should REALLY make Bernie's message stand out.

    Biden is only leading by ~190 delegates. This contest is NOT decided if Bernie can stay on point and force Biden to either take up some of Sanders positions (something is wrong with this country and it needs fixing) or force Biden to admit that everything that's happening now is exactly how he expects this country to continue to function.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  9. #15589
    2016 went so well when the Dems put the scandal-ridden, corrupt Hillary vs Trump...Putting Biden vs Trump is basically guaranteeing another 4 years of Trump.
    If you pick Bernie though, there's a chance of turning this around. Right here, right now.

  10. #15590
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    2016 went so well when the Dems put the scandal-ridden, corrupt Hillary vs Trump...Putting Biden vs Trump is basically guaranteeing another 4 years of Trump.
    If you pick Bernie though, there's a chance of turning this around. Right here, right now.
    i think the dem will win either way now, unless they get corona'd too.

    as insensitive as it is to say, i think corona has secured the dem win. old people are getting rekt just about every time they catch it, and it can reinfect almost immediately. so if the old person manages to survive, they could instantly get sick again by contact.

    older people being reliable voters is what gets conservatives the win. now there will be less older people by the time of the election.

  11. #15591
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    2016 went so well when the Dems put the scandal-ridden, corrupt Hillary vs Trump...Putting Biden vs Trump is basically guaranteeing another 4 years of Trump.
    If you pick Bernie though, there's a chance of turning this around. Right here, right now.
    As bad as Hillary was, a lot of it was her personality, approach and yes her policy prescriptions were likely going to be more of the rot causing policies. BUT Hillary at least had her marbles together. Heck, she could have even made a credible case for why she wanted to be president, even if it boiled down "Because I want to be president", does Biden even have that? Hell at least I sincerely believed Hillary wanted this. Biden isn't even always aware what year it is and what he is running for. She may not have had any reason to other than entitlement and shear desire to have that kind of power; and honestly she could have even made a case on that alone but she wasn't brave enough to just tell the American people "I want power, give me power and I will do whatever I have to for you people for you to give me power a second time" she could have made a kind of Cersei Lannister-esque case for herself. After all nobody can look at her life story and not say she hasn't been desiring this since forever and literally done everything she can in her life to become President.

    Joe? Joe is running.... to be a meat puppet for someone else. He is literally other power brokers deciding this meat puppet has enough Obama nostalgia for low information Democratic party loyalists and maybe "Not-Trump" will be enough this time schtick. But otherwise his brain trust will actually run the government and just tell him what to say assuming his brain doesn't melt to the point he can't talk anymore. Hell I am still of the belief he will step down at the convention and get replaced by someone else, with his "consent" obviously.

    Biden is basically the friendly doddering face for Deep State goons and Finance Banking Execs and some Lenders and war profiteers to just run the government in peace and quiet and none of this pesky politics in the way, which may be the "Normalcy" some desire. Trump is an unignorable eyesore so a lot of people are now forced to reckon with how bad things generally are, but back in the day the polite kabuki theater of decorum and chummy media-politician relationships made this more subtle.

    Sanders is one of like a few candidates that ran that actually have a case of "Here is what I want to do for you as President", Biden has none of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  12. #15592
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i think the dem will win either way now, unless they get corona'd too.

    as insensitive as it is to say, i think corona has secured the dem win. old people are getting rekt just about every time they catch it, and it can reinfect almost immediately. so if the old person manages to survive, they could instantly get sick again by contact.

    older people being reliable voters is what gets conservatives the win. now there will be less older people by the time of the election.
    If the death rate is so high in America that millions of old people are dead, the country will already be in full collapse and people will have way more things to be worried about than the elections.

  13. #15593
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i think the dem will win either way now, unless they get corona'd too.

    as insensitive as it is to say, i think corona has secured the dem win. old people are getting rekt just about every time they catch it, and it can reinfect almost immediately. so if the old person manages to survive, they could instantly get sick again by contact.

    older people being reliable voters is what gets conservatives the win. now there will be less older people by the time of the election.
    True, the bug might save their hides, though knowing the Democratic Party they will find someway to lose again. It's like their talent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  14. #15594
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Also Biden is just getting worse. He wandered off the stage last night...


    What stage? it looked like they were recording him while he was talking on the phone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i think the dem will win either way now, unless they get corona'd too.

    as insensitive as it is to say, i think corona has secured the dem win. old people are getting rekt just about every time they catch it, and it can reinfect almost immediately. so if the old person manages to survive, they could instantly get sick again by contact.

    older people being reliable voters is what gets conservatives the win. now there will be less older people by the time of the election.
    That's not how viruses work.......
    MMO-Champ the place where calling out trolls get you into more trouble than trolling.

  15. #15595
    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    I always found it funny that to a lot of struggle nations who were oppressed saw Castro as a hero, even to South Africa who had suffered under apartheid, but here we paint him as the equivalent as Hilter, Stalin, or Vlad. There is a clear problem in the story we are told and it's clear the depiction most main stream media would like to paint is only highlighting the bad he had done with no context. I'm not saying Castro was innocent, but considering the circumstances it doesn't seem nearly as violent as the French Revolution or many others.
    People outside of Cuba can say what they want. The people that have fled his terror have a more accurate image of him given that theyve lived under his boot.

    Bernie ignores those people, in the same way he praised Venezuela and other failed authoritarian socialist projects

  16. #15596
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    What stage? it looked like they were recording him while he was talking on the phone.
    Looks like a Zoom conference call, so either a "digital rally" or a call with volunteers etc. I imagine.

    The fact that they seem to cut to the campaign endslate while he's still talking is odd, but I'd want to see the full video in context, not just a snippet.

  17. #15597
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    People outside of Cuba can say what they want. The people that have fled his terror have a more accurate image of him given that theyve lived under his boot.

    Bernie ignores those people, in the same way he praised Venezuela and other failed authoritarian socialist projects
    People who fled are the most accurate picture? So, we aren't going to interrogate why they fled? Who were they before fleeing? Were they say part of Batista's government? Were they the beneficiaries of Batista's reign?

    And the people who have benefited? Their voices don't matter I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  18. #15598
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    That's not how viruses work.......
    i've heard of at least two cases where someone got released after being cleared, only to wind up back in the hospital and die.

  19. #15599
    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    People outside of Cuba can say what they want. The people that have fled his terror have a more accurate image of him given that theyve lived under his boot.

    Bernie ignores those people, in the same way he praised Venezuela and other failed authoritarian socialist projects
    You can actually pinpoint the exact moment when Bernie lost the nomination. It was the moment he endorsed Fidel Castro. It all started rolling downhill from there.

  20. #15600
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i've heard of at least two cases where someone got released after being cleared, only to wind up back in the hospital and die.
    Yes, because sometimes the tests can result in a false negative. There is currently literally no information or evidence to suggest you can be "re-infected", much less immediately.

    Don't speculate on medical shit if you're not a doctor. Listen to medical professionals and experts.

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