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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    We know the WoW team is working on new content literally 2 expansions before they hit live servers. This means, even before BfA released, they were probably already working on Horrific Visions and, by extension, Torghast. No matter how little you enjoy Horrific Visions, Torghast was already designed to be pretty much the same thing long before they had any chance to get any feedback.

    Blizzard has completely gambled that people would enjoy Horrific Visions and doubled down on this idea in Torghast. This whole single run - "do your best" kind of content.

    I can only speak for myself, and mention I do not enjoy Horrific Visions at this point in time. I tried to do it solo as a Resto Shaman, and it was extremely slow and inefficient. I was "forced" to respec to Enhancement, and even in this spec, I don't enjoy it. The reason is that it's just stressful and annoying with all the stuff I gotta move out of. It's like a solo version of Mythic+, a system I already despise.

    Horrific Visions is a place designed for AoE melee/hunter DPS. It's a system that takes a long time to do, so it feels more like a chore than fun. It's also a system that many people already are getting bored by. This means people got bored of Horrific Visions in less than 2 months.

    From what I understand, this Torghast system is the very core of the whole expansion. It's the Artifact Weapons of Shadowlands. It's the Island Expedition / Heart of Azeroth of Shadowlands. It's the place to get your transmogs, the place to get your mounts, the place to spend several hours every week.

    From my standpoint, if I feel like I have to do these, and I also feel inefficient as a Resto Shaman in there. Then, they try to tell me to "just respec or find a group", I'm out. Not only from the system, but from the entire expansion spider web of systems.

    If people got bored of Horrific Visions in less than 2 months, how is Torghast supposed to last an entire expansion?
    Specs resto, refuses to do group content.

    That's your problem m8. Respec to dh, warrior, paladin, druids, dk rogue or Hunter and you can really solo quite well.
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  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by SoulSoBreezy View Post
    That's why I'm going to no life torghast as much as the system allows me to (I'm a fan of rogue-lites); I know I'm going to get a kick out of progressing through while having to adapt to the perks (anima) that the dungeon gives me as I climb and figuring out what works.
    What'll be sad is when people start publishing "perk paths" if the anima system runs off a random template as opposed to a totally random roll at each stopping point...
    I'm getting ahead of myself. But I'm fucking hyped.
    good for you ? i guess

    but majority of playerbase actively avoiding visions proves that they are wasting resources by developing thorgast to cater it to top 5%. while players will ignore it.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    good for you ? i guess

    but majority of playerbase actively avoiding visions proves that they are wasting resources by developing thorgast to cater it to top 5%. while players will ignore it.
    Some people don't like things. I'm freaking shocked! But a majority? I can't speak one way or another but I don't think we should presume what the majority is doing.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Given that Torghast seems to be an expansion centerpiece as well as hefty part of end-game content (outside of raiding), it's likely it's going to get a lot of focus where the Visions of N'Zoth are more slapdash in terms of construction. It is also likely to be iterated on as the expansion wends on, meaning that even if it doesn't hit the mark initially it can be updated and made better with content patches.
    See, I read this, and can't help but compare this situation to the Netherlight crucible in late legion, and the azerite gear system.

    Essentially the exact same scenario, and after several attempts to fix/salvage it, they ended up having to give up on azerite armor.

    Im not playing retail right now, so I dont have an opinion on Visions.
    Last edited by Hinastorm; 2020-03-14 at 10:41 PM.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    ...well, duh?
    Right? Doesn't matter what other points the OP planned to make. I stopped reading right there because "no fucking shit"

  6. #166
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    See, I read this, and can't help but compare this situation to the Netherlight crucible in late legion, and the azerite gear system.

    Essentially the exact same scenario, and after several attempts to fix/salvage it, they ended up having to give up on azerite armor.

    Im not playing retail right now, so I dont have an opinion on Visions.
    The Netherlight Crucible is pretty much the opposite of Essences, though - just a handful of passives and stat buffs that served as an auxiliary power curve (accompanying Argus' upswing in relative difficulty). I would say that the initial Azerite system was basically a long-winded version of the Crucible in that it is composed mostly of unlockable passives, whereas the Essence system more or less represented a scaled down core of what the Artifact Weapon system was in Legion, which a bit more horizontal mix-and-match as opposed to the class-specific theme of Artifacts.

    They didn't "give up" on Azerite Traits inasmuch as they supplemented them with something more interesting from a gameplay angle, which was basically what Azerite Traits were missing all along. If the center sphere of Azerite Traits had been something more like an Essence the system probably would've been a lot better received from the get-go, in my opinion.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #167
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Its quite normal to be critical of a game you are passionate about, if you want it to get better and improve.

    But I guess its easier to turn off your brain and write something stupid like you did instead.
    The people that bitch incessantly aren't passionate about WoW. They just need something to cry about because they aren't mature enough to just move on like a Normal Human Being.

  8. #168
    I am Murloc! Kuja's Avatar
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    It doesn't sound too challenging to make the instance change based on your spec. If soloing and you're a healer, there should be an NPC bodyguarding you, allowing you to be the healer and issuing commands like attack and follow to the npc. But scaling it so that it would be as efficient if you were soloing as a DPS, so no unfair advantage of having 2 guys.

    Now I have never done horrific visions, so I don't know how it works. But if it's anything similar to Lei Shen's vault robbing, I can see how it can be annoying as a healer if there's lots of fighting to do.

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  9. #169
    Torghast will be randomized layouts which will add some replayability but ultimately Blizzard doesn't have the agility to respond to criticism of the 8.3 system for Shadowlands, it's already largely locked in stone. It will launch without learning any lessons from Horrific Visions, making all the same mistakes other than the randomization. Then it will be hotfixed/patched in 9.0/9.1 and largely fixed in 9.2.

    How can I possibly predict that outcome? I mean, open your eyes, people. You've all been playing WoW for a decade, right? That's what always happens.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Netherlight Crucible is pretty much the opposite of Essences, though - just a handful of passives and stat buffs that served as an auxiliary power curve (accompanying Argus' upswing in relative difficulty). I would say that the initial Azerite system was basically a long-winded version of the Crucible in that it is composed mostly of unlockable passives, whereas the Essence system more or less represented a scaled down core of what the Artifact Weapon system was in Legion, which a bit more horizontal mix-and-match as opposed to the class-specific theme of Artifacts.

    They didn't "give up" on Azerite Traits inasmuch as they supplemented them with something more interesting from a gameplay angle, which was basically what Azerite Traits were missing all along. If the center sphere of Azerite Traits had been something more like an Essence the system probably would've been a lot better received from the get-go, in my opinion.
    I was comparing crucible to azerite gear, sorry I probably should of made that clear. Very similar systems, with very similar traits even.

    And we'll just have to disagree about your second paragraph, they clearly moved on from the system because they realized it was bad, and unpopular.

    I'm still hopeful about Torghast though, I learned it's not timed, which was a massive positive for me personally.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Torghast will be randomized layouts which will add some replayability but ultimately Blizzard doesn't have the agility to respond to criticism of the 8.3 system for Shadowlands, it's already largely locked in stone. It will launch without learning any lessons from Horrific Visions, making all the same mistakes other than the randomization. Then it will be hotfixed/patched in 9.0/9.1 and largely fixed in 9.2.

    How can I possibly predict that outcome? I mean, open your eyes, people. You've all been playing WoW for a decade, right? That's what always happens.
    This guy gets it.

  11. #171
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    And who are you to label people like that when you dont even know how they feel about the game? Its just empty assumptions and you are in no way any better.
    I am better actually, since I'm not someone sitting on forums dedicated to something I hate instead of just moving on like an Adult.

  12. #172
    I don't really get why blizzard clings to the failed scenario model. The only time the community seems to like them are for personal challenges like the mage tower and leggos.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    Visions are pretty fun if you do them without the -50% sanity mask. I've done 5 masks on Org and Stormwind, then after getting the achievement decided to just farm 4 masks. I thought I forgot to enable them, that's how faceroll 4 masks are compared to 5 masks. 4 masks is basically easymode after running 5, especially with gift of the titans. If you're struggling with anything else than 5 masks at this moment with 460+ and cloak rank 13-14 (so you're not behind), it's a matter of git gud.
    I'm only a 454 kitty I'm retired from raiding and M+ right now and I've managed to 5-mask Orgrimmar and 4-mask Stormwind (not doing a split personality mask). 4-mask runs on non-split weeks without using the sanity mask are freaking holidays.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  14. #174
    I think Horrific biggest failure is scaling of cloak and requirements at that scaling to upgrade said cloak. Once you hit 65% sanity resistance, golden. That space between starting 5-7 ranks and 65% is rough.

  15. #175
    That is certainly valid criticism. Horrific Visions start out relatively challenging and get much easier as you progress. Not really because you get better at doing them but because your character's power dramatically increases. That's a design flaw, IMO. They should start out very easy and slowly ramp-up in mandatory difficulty, with the player having the choice to make them much more challenging with optional stuff like masks. Player skill should be increasingly required for those optional challenge modes.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    That is certainly valid criticism. Horrific Visions start out relatively challenging and get much easier as you progress. Not really because you get better at doing them but because your character's power dramatically increases. That's a design flaw, IMO. They should start out very easy and slowly ramp-up in mandatory difficulty, with the player having the choice to make them much more challenging with optional stuff like masks. Player skill should be increasingly required for those optional challenge modes.
    This can't exist least not for repeatable content they want to force people to far.

    Visions are never challenging you simply are capped by your cloak level since it acts as a timer. Raiders where downing lost areas in the first week even with that handy cap though.

    The tower isn't going to be some new super exciting content. It's the failed mop scenarios again with a new coat of paint... again.

  17. #177
    They hyped up Warfronts for BFA, look how they turned out. They compared Visions to the MAGE TOWER. My advice when it comes to Blizzard is to not get hyped about anything, remain cautious of everything said and if it turns out to be as good as they claim, be pleasantly surprised. Blizzard has been really good as of late when it comes to proving they're not worth the hype and they're not the same great company they once were.

    Who the hell knows what Torghast is going to be like. Speculating on it is most likely only going to cause you disappointment in the long run, unfortunate but true. =/
    "Honor, young heroes. No matter how dire the battle, never forsake it."
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  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by gallamann View Post
    I think Horrific biggest failure is scaling of cloak and requirements at that scaling to upgrade said cloak. Once you hit 65% sanity resistance, golden. That space between starting 5-7 ranks and 65% is rough.
    and its most likely meant to be. so that you spend your time doing assaults and objectives there week after week , day after day farming mementos and upgrading tree.

    thorgast will be exackly the same.

    ofc you can bypass some with gear from hc/mythic raids . but at the end of day its the tree/rank 3 essences and corruption + sockets that you put on gear that gives you the most.

    i do think though that they should reduce the price for vessels - they should cost 2-3k instead 10k . then system would be much more player friendly .

    i was very skeptical about visions for a long time but imo they do make sense as something to do outside of weekly mythic+ and raids. but i do think that its a shame that raiders benefit from them much more then casuals. i kinda wish that gear was scallable to 445 to put everyone on equal footing when doing them . so that they feel the same difficulty for someone doing only world content and someone who raids/mythic + .
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2020-03-19 at 08:04 AM.

  19. #179
    I personally think visions was a success so if Torghast is like visions but more randomized I will love it.
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  20. #180
    The main thing I hate about visions is the time limit (same thing i hate about M+). If Torghast doesn't have the timer, it might be fun.

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