1. #15721
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    It's baffling to me pro-Sanders' supporters are still railing against Biden.
    Oh no, disagreement! America is doomed!


    DOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMEED!!!!!
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  2. #15722
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    No... it seems quite different.

    Biden's misspeaking seems to happen most when he is flustered. Tonight he appears quite calm, he is almost barely misspeaking at all. After winning SC he has been far far far better and far less stuttering and far less misspeaking.
    That makes him a human being after all, and not senile.

  3. #15723
    The Undying
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    Seems like a Trump supporters response, you cant be critical of dear leader.
    Exactly the response we'd expect from a Bernie Bros - thoughtless, shortsighted, and not understanding the bigger picture. But please, keep on helping Trump's campaign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Side note, can we just have all debates without a live audience now? This is just so much better without them.
    Agreed - this is really much better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    I'm pro-sanders.

    I'm not railing against Biden, I'm happy that he appears quite strong today. Better to have two strong people even if one of them I disagree with.

    His physical posture his tone and such, it is very presidential and stoic. Which is what people love apparently.

    I prefer more fire and a platform that is huge on change. A platform on huge change means even if you compromise you still can get some major things done.
    Agreed - huge on change is the way to move a progressive platform. I hope Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Warren can do that. I'm sure President Biden will sign whatever comes from their efforts.

  4. #15724
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    Maybe I should watch this, has to be better than the discussion here which is nothing but supporters of both candidates spewing endless variations of "No You!"
    /s

  5. #15725
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    I'm pro-sanders.

    I'm not railing against Biden, I'm happy that he appears quite strong today. Better to have two strong people even if one of them I disagree with.

    His physical posture his tone and such, it is very presidential and stoic. Which is what people love apparently.

    I prefer more fire and a platform that is huge on change. A platform on huge change means even if you compromise you still can get some major things done.
    I mean I respect what you're saying, but here are the two points of disagreement

    (1) This is at time for triage. Reformative therapy, let's call it, comes after we've triage the emergency situation. Your huge change must come after the triage.

    (2) You badly overestimatre what you would get with compromise. You're not alone in this. AOC said about a month ago that if they start negotiating for M4A and end at a public option, that'd still be a huge win (in the same sense as major things done". There is not 20 votes in the Senate and 100 in the House for M4A, and there probably isn't 30 or 150 for a public option. The real-world compromise you'd get wouldn't be a public option, but modest Obamacare reform at best.

    Really. Progressives badly over estimate the leverage they have. Starting a negotiation at high doesn't at all imply that the settlement point is the middle if you don't have leverage.

    You wouldn't get huge change. You'd get little to nothing. Because there is nothing you can do to get 60 votes in the Senate or 223 votes in the House as it stands right now. The House and Senate Democratic delegations, never mind Republicans are not nearly where progressives would need them to be to get any kind of compromise that could be called, in your words "major things done".

    This is why progressives should stop trying to federalize the issue and focus on the state level, where they _will_ find far more success. Focus on California and New York and Maryland and Massachusetts and the like. If Idaho is a shit hole, that's the way it goes for now. But at least you don't have Idaho's votes foiling a broader implementation of an agenda.

  6. #15726
    The correct answer should have been "Yes, and [nuance]" to this dictatorship question, because it's literally what Sanders' stance has been. Bernie's weakness remains that he always jumps to defending the nuance and forgets to put the obvious answer out front.

  7. #15727
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Wait...Congress writes the laws?!?! What the hell...? /s

    All this back and forth about which Democratic candidate will push which policies is neato, and for the most part ridiculous, but if the Progressives were really into getting their agenda passed, they would be working tooth and nail to flip the Senate. That's where all the bills go to die.

    I mean, FFS, Moscow Mitch called a week long recess just as the Coronavirus was busting loose bigly in the U.S.
    Yeah, which is one reason all the policy debate stuff really doesn't matter *that* much to me. Things like being able to work with others, experience etc are more important to me. And it's not that policy doesn't matter at all, because the president still can have sway over the agenda, but ultimately as you say, this is why the Sanders group bashing the democratic party and "the establishment" turned me off so severely. We NEED the democratic party to take congress if you want to see any of this happen. Shitting on the democratic party to defend sanders isn't helping your cause, it's hurting your case. That's been my main point.
    While you live, shine / Have no grief at all / Life exists only for a short while / And time demands its toll.

  8. #15728
    GOD BLESS BIDEN MAKING BERNARD SANDERS EAT HIS WORDS ON CUBA/RUSSIA/CHINA.

    THANK GOD.

    And now Bernard is going to commit suicide on a hill. Here he goes. Going for the Defender-of China/Cuba/Russia dictatorship votes.

    Walk into the trap you fucking idiot, lol. Die on this hill. God I love behind right about this maroon.

  9. #15729
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    This framing should continue to be used regularly, particularly on the kind of weirdo communists that frequent this thread.
    Whatever helps you guys make excuses to back a senile candidate. Really goes to show you don't really care about your country(and that the rest of the world can go fuck itself).

  10. #15730
    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    Whatever helps you guys make excuses to back a senile candidate. Really goes to show you don't really care about your country(and that the rest of the world can go fuck itself).
    Isn't it past your bed time?
    While you live, shine / Have no grief at all / Life exists only for a short while / And time demands its toll.

  11. #15731
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    Oh no, disagreement! America is doomed!


    DOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMEED!!!!!
    To bo honest, i'm only calling Biden senile because i'm actually a russian bot.

    Curses, my plans foiled again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    Isn't it past your bed time?
    Never to late to spread gay communism.

  12. #15732
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapemask View Post
    The correct answer should have been "Yes, and [nuance]" to this dictatorship question, because it's literally what Sanders' stance has been. Bernie's weakness remains that he always jumps to defending the nuance and forgets to put the obvious answer out front.
    And Biden is eviscerating Bernard (rightfully) with what he's said and how he said it. I've been hammering this point here for a week and a half and folks thought it was quixotic. And here is the likely Democratic nominee doing it too on national television. I guess it wasn't quixotic.

    Biden calling out all the countries in the pacific rim that are afraid of China and saying that words matter just illustrates how poor Bernard's words on the topic are and why Bernard Sanders is a fool to die on this stupid hill.

    But die on it he has.

  13. #15733
    Bernie actually dictatorships arent that bad Sanders XD

    Channeling his bros on this one

  14. #15734
    Bernard Sanders just lied as to why he refused to vote for sanctions on Russia in response to their 2016 attack on America.

    Good job Biden for highlighting that. Sanders is soft on authoritarian regimes and always has been.

  15. #15735
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Bernard Sanders just lied as to why he refused to vote for sanctions on Russia in response to their 2016 attack on America.

    Good job Biden for highlighting that. Sanders is soft on authoritarian regimes and always has been.
    Tonight is the night that rest of America learns that Bernie is full of shit.

  16. #15736
    Biden: "Everyone knows I am a Democrat with a capital D".

    Ouch.

  17. #15737
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    Bernie actually dictatorships arent that bad Sanders XD

    Channeling his bros on this one
    Yeah, dictatorships are only okay if they are US backed, not those dirty countries that had revolutions to get rid of the US influence.

  18. #15738
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Biden: "Everyone knows I am a Democrat with a capital D".

    Ouch.
    Is this a dick joke? It sounds like a dick joke.
    While you live, shine / Have no grief at all / Life exists only for a short while / And time demands its toll.

  19. #15739
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Biden: "Everyone knows I am a Democrat with a capital D".

    Ouch.
    Turns out policies might be more important than a meaningless letter, who knew.

  20. #15740
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    Yeah, which is one reason all the policy debate stuff really doesn't matter *that* much to me. Things like being able to work with others, experience etc are more important to me. And it's not that policy doesn't matter at all, because the president still can have sway over the agenda, but ultimately as you say, this is why the Sanders group bashing the democratic party and "the establishment" turned me off so severely. We NEED the democratic party to take congress if you want to see any of this happen. Shitting on the democratic party to defend sanders isn't helping your cause, it's hurting your case. That's been my main point.
    Right, but you can't say "we don't have Congress so there's no point wishing for anything." This mostly sounds like an excuse to try to make the progressives be quiet, because of the very fact that the Senate can flip in the same year that we're electing the president, neutering "we have to win it, then start talking about change." Ignoring that "We can't do anything, vote for me just to make sure the other guy doesn't do anything" doesn't get people to the polls.

    When Obama was pushing his healthcare message in 2008, he had every reason to think it would never pass. People had been promising healthcare since the beginning of politics and nothing ever happened. But moreover, Republicans had the Senate by a larger majority than they do today. 55 seats. But he won, and the flipped the Senate - even if only by virtue of two Democrat-leaning independents to give them a slim 51 seat majority.

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