View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. This poll is closed
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #24461
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I didn't ask for a benefit of Brexit I asked what was the benefit of leaving without a deal compared to leaving with one.
    My point is that leaving without one can help to preserve that benefit by making it harder for Remoaners to keep us shackled to the EU via a Brexit-in-name-only deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I just thought... what if the EU are in on this? Would no deal really be no deal? And would Johnson really want no deal if it was the EU's idea? Brexit-ception!
    Who knows at this point. Heck, even in the event of "no deal" I expect there'll be a ton of minor deals made on specific issues, if only to smooth things over.
    Still not tired of winning.

  2. #24462
    Barnier also said "[the EU remained] ready to work very quickly with the UK". Why not just admit that you were again making things up?

    Do you not think that there might be a slight clue in the words "Canada style deal" as to what a "Canada style deal" might entail? I can assure you that having read what's in the Canada/EU agreement the idea that it is an 'everything else' situation is complete and utter nonsense. Quite frankly what you've written is embarrassing!

    Did it? Where does that text come from and what does it relate to? How do you think this might relate to your claim?

    Seriously why do you bother? You very clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
    This is very much like watching Robert Peston. A moron who blathers on incessantly about politics under the illusion any one gives a shit what he is saying.

  3. #24463
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    My point is that leaving without one can help to preserve that benefit by making it harder for Remoaners to keep us shackled to the EU via a Brexit-in-name-only deal.
    First of all Remoaners?!? This thread is bad enough as it is. Be better than that.

    The Brexit argument was over the minute polls closed and Johnson with his Get Brexit done message won a massive majority, it appears that the majority of the country have accepted the result and just want to get on with life, and perhaps most importantly we've left... it's over... there's no going back now even if we wanted to. So just how are we going to be kept shackled to the EU?

    I believe that if the negotiations are carried out with openness and in good faith but result in failure people will, in general, accept no-deal at least in the short term. I don't believe that they or the Con party will accept Johnson deliberately engineering a no-deal situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Who knows at this point. Heck, even in the event of "no deal" I expect there'll be a ton of minor deals made on specific issues, if only to smooth things over.
    But that's the point isn't it? In the event of no deal we will still need to make deals with the EU so it makes no sense whatsoever to waste the time that has been allocated to negotiate with demands that are designed to scupper the negotiations.

  4. #24464
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    First of all Remoaners?!? This thread is bad enough as it is. Be better than that.

    The Brexit argument was over the minute polls closed and Johnson with his Get Brexit done message won a massive majority, it appears that the majority of the country have accepted the result and just want to get on with life, and perhaps most importantly we've left... it's over... there's no going back now even if we wanted to. So just how are we going to be kept shackled to the EU?

    I believe that if the negotiations are carried out with openness and in good faith but result in failure people will, in general, accept no-deal at least in the short term. I don't believe that they or the Con party will accept Johnson deliberately engineering a no-deal situation.



    But that's the point isn't it? In the event of no deal we will still need to make deals with the EU so it makes no sense whatsoever to waste the time that has been allocated to negotiate with demands that are designed to scupper the negotiations.
    no one sane will accept no deal. That's basically accepting to shoot off both healthy feet because soem son of a bitch got a minority of votes to say "FEET ARE STUPID."

    And you Pann are basically an enabler like anyone that has gone "It happens lets move on."

  5. #24465
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    First of all Remoaners?!? This thread is bad enough as it is. Be better than that.
    I call them that all the time, it's like Brexiteer or Tory. Just more derogative because, well, they do moan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The Brexit argument was over the minute polls closed and Johnson with his Get Brexit done message won a massive majority, it appears that the majority of the country have accepted the result and just want to get on with life, and perhaps most importantly we've left... it's over... there's no going back now even if we wanted to. So just how are we going to be kept shackled to the EU?
    The Brexit argument should have been over the minute the polls closed, but there's a reason Nigel Farage said he's going to be breathing down the Tory party's collective neck until they get a good result. Just because the people voted to do X doesn't mean the political establishment - let alone the civil service - gives two figs about them. See pretty much the entire period between the referendum & BoJo getting into Number 10 for proof of that. Bercow, Grieves et al would be strung up if there was any justice, but there we go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I believe that if the negotiations are carried out with openness and in good faith but result in failure people will, in general, accept no-deal at least in the short term.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I don't believe that they or the Con party will accept Johnson deliberately engineering a no-deal situation.
    Depends on what people believe though. "Well of course the Grauniad / Eurocrats / Them-not-Us would say it was all a plan, they would wouldn't they?" ... it's politics, and TBH it doesn't even require a very large group of conspirators to pull off. You'd want BoJo himself, probably Dominic Cummings (because why not), and maybe one or two others with some good knowledge of the EU, in particular with regards to what the EU will consider unacceptable. BoJo gets to pick all the MPs who'll have anything to do with the negotiations (eg Foreign Secretary), so all he has to do is pick people who will tow the party line (ie his line) in pushing hard in the negotiations or whatever he calls it. The EU might even unwittingly help here, proposing its own points that it knows the UK won't accept (eg ECJ supremacy) as a kind of tit-for-tat negotiating tactic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    But that's the point isn't it? In the event of no deal we will still need to make deals with the EU so it makes no sense whatsoever to waste the time that has been allocated to negotiate with demands that are designed to scupper the negotiations.
    Ideally you'd be right, but again, it's politics. Inertia matters in politics, as does time, and the longer we go without being in the EU the harder it will be politically to make us subject to ECJ rulings and the like, even without Boris Johnson in charge.
    Still not tired of winning.

  6. #24466
    I call them that all the time, it's like Brexiteer or Tory. Just more derogative because, well, they do moan.


    The Brexit argument should have been over the minute the polls closed
    Yes after the polls closed in the original referendum when the UK joined Europe.

    Altogether now, THAT's DIFFERENT!

    - - - Updated - - -

    First of all Remoaners?!? This thread is bad enough as it is. Be better than that.

    The Brexit argument was over the minute polls closed and Johnson with his Get Brexit done message won a massive majority, it appears that the majority of the country have accepted the result and just want to get on with life, and perhaps most importantly we've left... it's over... there's no going back now even if we wanted to. So just how are we going to be kept shackled to the EU?

    I believe that if the negotiations are carried out with openness and in good faith but result in failure people will, in general, accept no-deal at least in the short term. I don't believe that they or the Con party will accept Johnson deliberately engineering a no-deal situation.



    But that's the point isn't it? In the event of no deal we will still need to make deals with the EU so it makes no sense whatsoever to waste the time that has been allocated to negotiate with demands that are designed to scupper the negotiations.
    Did it ever occur to you that you have been persistently wrong about everything and you know precisely jack shit?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Depends on what people believe though. "Well of course the Grauniad / Eurocrats / Them-not-Us would say it was all a plan, they would wouldn't they?" ... it's politics, and TBH it doesn't even require a very large group of conspirators to pull off. You'd want BoJo himself, probably Dominic Cummings (because why not), and maybe one or two others with some good knowledge of the EU, in particular with regards to what the EU will consider unacceptable. BoJo gets to pick all the MPs who'll have anything to do with the negotiations (eg Foreign Secretary), so all he has to do is pick people who will tow the party line (ie his line) in pushing hard in the negotiations or whatever he calls it. The EU might even unwittingly help here, proposing its own points that it knows the UK won't accept (eg ECJ supremacy) as a kind of tit-for-tat negotiating tactic.

    You know when your relatives or work colleagues or other people that have to tolerate your presence roll their eyes at you? It is because you are a cunt.

    Just sayin'.

  7. #24467
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    no one sane will accept no deal. That's basically accepting to shoot off both healthy feet because soem son of a bitch got a minority of votes to say "FEET ARE STUPID."

    And you Pann are basically an enabler like anyone that has gone "It happens lets move on."
    Grow up Kallisto.

    Under normal circumstances I would say that one day the realisation will hit you that your constant snide and ignorant comments (and let's not forget the threats, huh) towards leave voters has helped drive their determination to leave under any circumstances but we both know that this will - like many, many things - simply pass you by.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    I call them that all the time, it's like Brexiteer or Tory. Just more derogative because, well, they do moan.
    But what's the point? It only serves to wind people up and further convince the worst of them that they're right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    The Brexit argument should have been over the minute the polls closed, but there's a reason Nigel Farage said he's going to be breathing down the Tory party's collective neck until they get a good result. Just because the people voted to do X doesn't mean the political establishment - let alone the civil service - gives two figs about them. See pretty much the entire period between the referendum & BoJo getting into Number 10 for proof of that. Bercow, Grieves et al would be strung up if there was any justice, but there we go.
    Farage is a shameless self publicist so I'm not sure that he is a good example to use.

    Under ideal circumstances you'd be absolutely correct but the complete lack of planning as to what would happen in the event of a leave victory as well as the closeness of the result meant that circumstances were far from ideal.

    Obviously we're approaching the issue from different sides of argument but I can see and sympathise with your point of view however from mine - considering the magnitude of the decision to leave the EU and how it would shape the future of the UK for decades to come - there was nothing wrong with remain continuing to put their side of the argument forward in effort to change public opinion. I think we would both agree that how remain went about it was far from ideal and their actions have ended up doing their cause more harm than good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Depends on what people believe though. "Well of course the Grauniad / Eurocrats / Them-not-Us would say it was all a plan, they would wouldn't they?" ... it's politics, and TBH it doesn't even require a very large group of conspirators to pull off. You'd want BoJo himself, probably Dominic Cummings (because why not), and maybe one or two others with some good knowledge of the EU, in particular with regards to what the EU will consider unacceptable. BoJo gets to pick all the MPs who'll have anything to do with the negotiations (eg Foreign Secretary), so all he has to do is pick people who will tow the party line (ie his line) in pushing hard in the negotiations or whatever he calls it. The EU might even unwittingly help here, proposing its own points that it knows the UK won't accept (eg ECJ supremacy) as a kind of tit-for-tat negotiating tactic.
    The problem with this assumption is that the people who desire a no-deal Brexit are the minority - both within the Con party and amongst voters.

    Keeping such a plan secret would require a level of competency that no government has ever managed and the fact that the negotiations are being carried out in the public eye means that it would need everyone to be too stupid to notice what is going on.

  8. #24468
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    But what's the point? It only serves to wind people up and further convince the worst of them that they're right.
    If you think the Remoaner label applies to you, you probably are one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Farage is a shameless self publicist so I'm not sure that he is a good example to use.
    Whether he's a shameless self-publicist or not doesn't matter. The point is when the Brexiteers won the referendum, Farage was stupid enough to think he could pack in the politics & that the MPs would, whatever they personally thought, try and do a proper job of getting Brexit done promptly. Instead the polar opposite happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Obviously we're approaching the issue from different sides of argument but I can see and sympathise with your point of view however from mine - considering the magnitude of the decision to leave the EU and how it would shape the future of the UK for decades to come - there was nothing wrong with remain continuing to put their side of the argument forward in effort to change public opinion. I think we would both agree that how remain went about it was far from ideal and their actions have ended up doing their cause more harm than good.
    Yeah. The way I view it is to compare it to an election. If your guy beats my guy, ah well, better luck for me next time perhaps, and so on. My impression is that a lot of Remain voters thought that way: "we lost, okay, time to get on with life, the country has spoken" etc etc etc. It's the Gina Millers, Grieves, Bercows and the like that were the problem - well, them and the Sir Humphrey types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    The problem with this assumption is that the people who desire a no-deal Brexit are the minority - both within the Con party and amongst voters.
    Yes, but you don't need many people to pull it off. Noisy and influential minorities can have an impact out of all proportion to their numbers - doubly so if they're disciplined (the Brexit spartans anyone?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Keeping such a plan secret would require a level of competency that no government has ever managed
    Hardly. Certainly you're right that the bigger the conspiracy the harder it is to keep secret, but like I said before, it doesn't need to be a big conspiracy if it's happening in Number 10. Technically I suppose you could get away with it not being a conspiracy at all - ie just BoJo is in on it & giving orders - although that would be harder (because more people does make it easier to set things in motion etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    the fact that the negotiations are being carried out in the public eye means that it would need everyone to be too stupid to notice what is going on.
    Quite the opposite. Such a conspiracy can succeed perfectly well even if many people know about it provided it doesn't encounter too much opposition. If I figure it out and approve, I'm not going to oppose it. If I figure it out but believe I can't do anything to stop it, it'll carry on. If the EU figures it out, it doesn't help them much because the conspirators have access to their own anti-EU PR machinery to defend the conspiracy. And so on and so forth.
    Still not tired of winning.

  9. #24469
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    If you think the Remoaner label applies to you, you probably are one.
    I don't. I just think it is pointless, childish and more than a little boring now. You know - be the bigger man - just move on and enjoy your win instead of trying to rub in their faces?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Yeah. The way I view it is to compare it to an election. If your guy beats my guy, ah well, better luck for me next time perhaps, and so on. My impression is that a lot of Remain voters thought that way: "we lost, okay, time to get on with life, the country has spoken" etc etc etc. It's the Gina Millers, Grieves, Bercows and the like that were the problem - well, them and the Sir Humphrey types.
    The problem with this is that there is no next time with the ref. Ironically Gina Miller has done more to ensure Brexit was carried out in a legal and proper manner than the majority of leavers.

    Honestly I'm fed up with all these conspiracy theories so let's just agree to disagree. If you want to talk about other aspects of Brexit I'm happy to oblige.

  10. #24470
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Grow up Kallisto.

    Under normal circumstances I would say that one day the realisation will hit you that your constant snide and ignorant comments (and let's not forget the threats, huh) towards leave voters has helped drive their determination to leave under any circumstances but we both know that this will - like many, many things - simply pass you by.
    And your consisten treating them as if they're right with believein 2+2 = Banana because somehow majority can change reality is worse. Your view is bascially yes you lost and losing erights now lets move on and just enjoy having no rights left.

    So what should us who need full free movement between UK and Europe do. You offer no solutiolns just bow down and accept overlords. As a free society we need to push for single human nation not pulling apart. So solution that is a victory now there is no such thing as a no win situation

  11. #24471
    I don't. I just think it is pointless, childish and more than a little boring now. You know - be the bigger man - just move on and enjoy your win instead of trying to rub in their faces?



    The problem with this is that there is no next time with the ref. Ironically Gina Miller has done more to ensure Brexit was carried out in a legal and proper manner than the majority of leavers.

    Honestly I'm fed up with all these conspiracy theories so let's just agree to disagree. If you want to talk about other aspects of Brexit I'm happy to oblige.
    Maybe you two should get a room before you bore everyone else to death.

  12. #24472
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    And your consisten treating them as if they're right with believein 2+2 = Banana because somehow majority can change reality is worse. Your view is bascially yes you lost and losing erights now lets move on and just enjoy having no rights left.

    So what should us who need full free movement between UK and Europe do. You offer no solutiolns just bow down and accept overlords. As a free society we need to push for single human nation not pulling apart. So solution that is a victory now there is no such thing as a no win situation
    That's a silly little strawman if ever I saw one.

    I dunno... maybe fill out a couple of forms? Or you could keep yelling stupid things on the internet but I'm guessing that one will be more effective than the other. I'm in no position to offer solutions so I am not sure why you think I should offer any.

    As I said it will never occur do you just how counterproductive you and the others who spent their time insulting leavers were to the remain cause.

  13. #24473
    I still love that this thread continues to read "with ten days to go" ahahahaha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    I call them that all the time, it's like Brexiteer or Tory. Just more derogative because, well, they do moan.
    Derogatory.

    If you're going to live in the UK please learn the language.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    My property I decide who gets to rent it. And if I decide your nose is too big, or you'll make the place stink of smelly cheese and garlic as a reason you ain't renting it then tough, even if that's noseist or whatever ist or ism the thought police think it is. I just won't, unlike Fergus, outright say it...for now.
    So I guess all that's changed in this thread in my absence is that dribbles finally came out of the closet as an open racist.

    That's progress I suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  14. #24474
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    That's a silly little strawman if ever I saw one.

    I dunno... maybe fill out a couple of forms? Or you could keep yelling stupid things on the internet but I'm guessing that one will be more effective than the other. I'm in no position to offer solutions so I am not sure why you think I should offer any.

    As I said it will never occur do you just how counterproductive you and the others who spent their time insulting leavers were to the remain cause.
    You keep insulting pretty much everyone you talk with, I guess it's a do what I say not do what I do thing with you.

    Fill out some forms, you gobbled up the leave talking points like there's no tomorrow. What forms are there that enable free movement between the EU and the UK?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  15. #24475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    You keep insulting pretty much everyone you talk with, I guess it's a do what I say not do what I do thing with you.

    Fill out some forms, you gobbled up the leave talking points like there's no tomorrow. What forms are there that enable free movement between the EU and the UK?
    Brexiteer in everything but name, guess that's a thing?


    It is also sad to see that the UK is poor at responding to everything politically, the corona virus is going to hit them hard but they still seem to be rather oblivious to it all, whilst they keep everything open.

  16. #24476
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Fill out some forms, you gobbled up the leave talking points like there's no tomorrow. What forms are there that enable free movement between the EU and the UK?
    Brexit in name only / Brino springs to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    It is also sad to see that the UK is poor at responding to everything politically, the corona virus is going to hit them hard but they still seem to be rather oblivious to it all, whilst they keep everything open.
    Frankly it's hard to say how bad the wuflu actually is. I don't trust the Chinese numbers one bit, nor the Iranian ones. Italy seems to be hurting, but "1,000 dead" etc doesn't tell you much about things like age, other health conditions, or even non-lethal consequences of the bug (eg anyone seen the rumours of infertility going around?). Given that nobody has enough of any drugs to cure it (if there even IS a cure yet - I've heard some good stuff though), and given how infectious it is and how globalism means you can travel anywhere on Earth easily & quickly... frankly the UK government would have had to have been stockpiling from late December in order to be ready for it right now.
    Still not tired of winning.

  17. #24477
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    You keep insulting pretty much everyone you talk with, I guess it's a do what I say not do what I do thing with you.

    Fill out some forms, you gobbled up the leave talking points like there's no tomorrow. What forms are there that enable free movement between the EU and the UK?
    That's pretty fucking rich coming from you.

  18. #24478
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Yeah. The way I view it is to compare it to an election. If your guy beats my guy, ah well, better luck for me next time perhaps, and so on. My impression is that a lot of Remain voters thought that way: "we lost, okay, time to get on with life, the country has spoken" etc etc etc. It's the Gina Millers, Grieves, Bercows and the like that were the problem - well, them and the Sir Humphrey types.
    You are aware that without Gina Miller, the UK would have signed up to Theresa May's deal? May would have exercised royal prerogative and ratified the original WA; not even needing Parliament to see the front cover, let alone vote on it. Wasn't that the one all the Nigel Farages, Mark Francoises and Boris Johnsons (and Dribbleses for that matter) declared "not brexit" and "worse than simply remaining"?

  19. #24479
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sircaw View Post
    That's pretty fucking rich coming from you.
    Are you saying I keep insisting that people should be nice to each other to accomplish anything while I am insulting everyone I talk with or are you saying I am a brexiteer at heart?

    Either way, both are wrong so what were you trying to say?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  20. #24480
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Italy seems to be hurting, but "1,000 dead" etc doesn't tell you much about things like age, other health conditions, or even non-lethal consequences of the bug (eg anyone seen the rumours of infertility going around?).
    Do you actually pay attention?

    Quick questions:
    - how many citizens in the UK?
    - how many hospital beds for intensive care available?

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