Paladin Raid Tanking

[hulkgor]

What prevents said paladin from just, you know, being replaced by a prot warrior for every single fight? That way, you dont have to take gear away from a prot warrior to give to a part time pally tank, and you dont need to take gear away from a holy pally to give to a part time healer.

Oh look, a reasonable statement in multiple pages filled with gibberish and mental gymnastics to justify absurd things.

Thanks!

[munkeyinorbit]

You don't need taunt on every fight. Even on fights where taunt helps, like threat wipes on Ragnaros, you can get around it. Plain and simple if you generate more threat than anyone else can conceivably come close to. You ignore the fact about how threat actually works. It is a trinket you can use if you know a fight might last a little longer is all. Paladins doing this don't suffer mana issues, but to start out it's a trinket that helps.

Guide to tanking Ragnaros:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pkhwkwkIYM

Tanking Nef:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPkz7wxe8mI

Tanking Onyxia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_fBigd64Xk

Please just leave the thread if you can't see past your own bias. It's possible to tank on a paladin just fine.

Except when you need to taunt. You keep glossing over this taunt mechanic and pretend that paladins have this magical ability to be able to recover when they lose aggro. They don't. Because they don't have a taunt.

If this thread was about what the best tank would be on a single tank fight, then what you said makes some sense. Highest TPS is a great attribute. They are tanky, not quite as good CDs but very good. You might be right. But you are in a crusade to "educate" the masses about how paladins are the best main tank. That is absolutely ridiculous. The fact is if they were worth having as a main tank then you would actually see plenty of guilds out there using them. Guilds aren't because of one thing. Why waste gear on a part time tank? You don't.

[Coldfrostzero]

Except when you need to taunt. You keep glossing over this taunt mechanic and pretend that paladins have this magical ability to be able to recover when they lose aggro. They don't. Because they don't have a taunt.

If this thread was about what the best tank would be on a single tank fight, then what you said makes some sense. Highest TPS is a great attribute. They are tanky, not quite as good CDs but very good. You might be right. But you are in a crusade to "educate" the masses about how paladins are the best main tank. That is absolutely ridiculous. The fact is if they were worth having as a main tank then you would actually see plenty of guilds out there using them. Guilds aren't because of one thing. Why waste gear on a part time tank? You don't.

There are three fights in BWL that require a snap taunt. Every other boss is immune. Domo is the only fight in MC which requires a hard taunt.

I never said they should replace warriors at all. That they should be looked at in another light as TPS is all that matters in almost every fight. I don't need to educate anyone. The evidence is there, if you choose to ignore it that's on you. It doesn't make them a part time tank btw, my warrior guild uses a druid as an OT, sometimes he tanks a boss with our MT and sometimes I do. You can easily gear a paladin just the same way you'd gear any DPS warriors and they don't take the DPS gear anyway which is what a Fury/Prot warrior would want.

I'm done with this part of the conversation. If you don't want to talk about how to improve it, then this isn't the thread for you.

[Askyl]

Paladins are great offtanks, that's about it

[munkeyinorbit]

There are three fights in BWL that require a snap taunt. Every other boss is immune. Domo is the only fight in MC which requires a hard taunt.

I never said they should replace warriors at all. That they should be looked at in another light as TPS is all that matters in almost every fight. I don't need to educate anyone. The evidence is there, if you choose to ignore it that's on you. It doesn't make them a part time tank btw, my warrior guild uses a druid as an OT, sometimes he tanks a boss with our MT and sometimes I do. You can easily gear a paladin just the same way you'd gear any DPS warriors and they don't take the DPS gear anyway which is what a Fury/Prot warrior would want.

I'm done with this part of the conversation. If you don't want to talk about how to improve it, then this isn't the thread for you.

You with your education again. 37.5 percent of the time in current content a paladin is useless. Almost every fight is not 62.5 percent of fights. Paladins are a part time tank at best and most guilds use druids in that role. No one is claiming that paladins can't tank but they will never be a main tank. They cannot taunt. TPS is not the most important thing when it comes to tanking.

[stomination]

I wasn't being snooty. I answered exactly how you answered. Point for point?

Instantly is debatable. You trigger a GCD so you have to wait to even Shield Wall, which if you get gibbed in the middle of spamming your macro, it's a moot point. Shield Block lasts 2 charges and ~6 seconds. Redoubt lasts 10, making them uncrushable longer. They just can't get the damage reduction in the same way as being able to Shield Wall. They'll also always be defensively higher overall since they can wear tank gear and still pull more threat without giving that up.

The data you're referring to is outdated. Wowhead has a guild here with POV videos with Paladin tanks generating massive amounts of threat:
https://classic.wowhead.com/guides/l...hantments-back

You're basing them being worse on what was the norm 15 years ago? Or are you talking today with this information?



I am saying to throw out the handful of fights that don't require it. I'm not trying to completely deny the fact that there are some fights a Paladin cannot tank despite arkanon trying to say otherwise. I am saying on fights where you cannot taunt or a taunt isn't required, if a Paladin can do more threat, that is more optimal.



First of all, I'm not a woman. No idea where you got that from.

You can tank a lot of fights in blues even in BWL, I know because I have. You don't need to "gear a paladin over a Warrior" either. Just like you have many multiple Warrior tanks, you would gear a paladin up along side a Warrior.

I'm not asking for an echo chamber like you claim. I am asking for honest discussion and shutting down a discussion with outdated or inaccurate information isn't a discussion which is what you're trying to do.

If the fight can be tanked, by a paladin, they would be the more optimal choice because of their threat generation based on this information.



Yes, the cost is high, but guilds looking to speed run or never have a problem with DPS pulling threat wouldn't blink an eye at being optimal.

They would still bring the warrior tank. He can at least execute.

[Laurathansal]

You didn't even read the OP. About how GBoKs works. It's great that you're not a jerk about letting a paladin tank a raid, but you're not even looking at what I said or how paladins are better threat generators than warriors.

It's silly watching everyone come into this thread and say the same 3 things:
Paladins have mana issues
Paladins can't generate threat
Paladins can't taunt

Others and myself have discussed this and how each of these things are either flat out wrong, or irrelevant to what the discussion is about. Read the thread, if you're not convinced, then this thread isn't for you.

Your original post says this

"...Alliance guilds shifted their opinion on them?..."

My post was solely based on this statement.

And sorry to say, but your post sparks the discussion surrounding strengths and weaknesses of prot paladins. And I happen to know them well because I play with a prot paladin all the time. ALL-THE-TIME.

I cannot comment on GBOK, I have not seen it in action. But I don't need to see it, for me I am already convinced a paladin can and SHOULD tank, especially on off-tanking duties with multiple adds.

Makes me slightly disappointed that with all the hate towards paladins in this thread, you don't support the 2-3% that are actually in favor...

[Coldfrostzero]

You with your education again. 37.5 percent of the time in current content a paladin is useless. Almost every fight is not 62.5 percent of fights. Paladins are a part time tank at best and most guilds use druids in that role. No one is claiming that paladins can't tank but they will never be a main tank. They cannot taunt. TPS is not the most important thing when it comes to tanking.

The entire reason that Fury/Prot was born wasn't due to how amazingly tanky they are, it's because of how much TPS they produce. Tanking is all about TPS in vanilla/classic, that's why it became the norm on private servers. That way DPS can go all out and not slow down and boss fights go from 5-10 minutes to under 2.

Taunt is irrelevant to almost every single fight, but keep telling yourself that taunt will save you when you lose aggro because Warrior threat is very much a roller coaster vs a Paladin who has guaranteed to produce an exact number of threat. 5 whole fights in the first two raids that require taunt, which leaves 14 other fights a Paladin would be a suitable tank for.

Stay ignorant though to how tanking works.

[lollerlaban]

The entire reason that Fury/Prot was born wasn't due to how amazingly tanky they are, it's because of how much TPS they produce. Tanking is all about TPS in vanilla/classic, that's why it became the norm on private servers. That way DPS can go all out and not slow down and boss fights go from 5-10 minutes to under 2.

Taunt is irrelevant to almost every single fight, but keep telling yourself that taunt will save you when you lose aggro because Warrior threat is very much a roller coaster vs a Paladin who has guaranteed to produce an exact number of threat. 5 whole fights in the first two raids that require taunt, which leaves 14 other fights a Paladin would be a suitable tank for.

Stay ignorant though to how tanking works.

So if 25% of the fights requires taunt, why not just gear up a warrior? You just solved your own puzzle, congratulations!

[Coldfrostzero]

I cannot comment on GBOK, I have not seen it in action. But I don't need to see it, for me I am already convinced a paladin can and SHOULD tank, especially on off-tanking duties with multiple adds.

Makes me slightly disappointed that with all the hate towards paladins in this thread, you don't support the 2-3% that are actually in favor...

I wasn't trying to attack you at all. You were saying stuff that is misinformed. As you said so yourself that you haven't seen a Paladin use GBoK spam. Tell your friend to try it. I linked some videos on how to do it, not that it's very complicated. Keep Holy Shield and Consecrate R1 up, while using remaining GCDs on GBoKs on whatever class you have the most of.

If it's a multi-target fight, the threat is split based on the amount of targets in combat. So fights like Lucifron, Shazzrah, Harbringer, Golemagg, and Domo can lower overall threat on their main target and create a ton of threat on the other targets of the fight. Have to have the other tanks ready to pull their target back with taunt (HA!) if the Paladin does too much threat with their spamming. If the paladin needs to "taunt" they can BoP the other tank or have another Paladin do it. Lot's of little tricks to make it work, but it'll take some practice I am sure.

So if 25% of the fights requires taunt, why not just gear up a warrior? You just solved your own puzzle, congratulations!

You realize that a Warrior and Paladin share very little loot together? As a Fury/Prot warrior, you're competing with the Fury Warriors, Rogues, Ret Paladins/Enhance Shamans, and Hunters for gear. Paladin tanks can't take Warrior tier. Most of the tanking gear in the game has high stamina and low (if any) damage, which is not what a Fury/Prot warrior wants. They produce threat through damage, a paladin produces threat through a buff which means they don't need threat gear. Very few guilds bring an actual Deep Prot Warrior anymore and basically as Fury/Prot you just hope to survive and don't take a string of crits. A Paladin wouldn't be gimping their threat with sword and board.

So you can gear a Paladin with very little interference with a Warrior getting gear. What do I know though? I've only been playing a Warrior tank since vanilla and currently am the OT for my current guild (was MT of another guild that fell apart).

[Xanjori]

So you want a tank that does less DPS, to produce more TPS, despite the fact the Warrior has higher TPS and DPS and better CDs?

[gaymer77]

No, I wanted to discuss about it. Not being told nonsense about how it'll never happen when people are already doing it just fine with no issues.

No actually all you've done in this entire thread is tell people why THEY are wrong when THEY show you why paladin tanking isn't viable for vanilla/Classic. Anyone who doesn't support your delusion gets told why they are wrong. All you want from this thread is validation of your choice to make a paladin tank instead of sticking to what paladins were good at in vanilla...healing!

[Coldfrostzero]

So you want a tank that does less DPS, to produce more TPS, despite the fact the Warrior has higher TPS and DPS and better CDs?

Warriors don't produce more TPS, that's what the entire debate that people created in this thread is about and why GBoK is a thing. Paladin threat's ceiling is based around the amount of a class being stacked. Since most guilds are stacking Warriors/Mages/Rogues already, it makes this a viable way to produce incredibly high TPS. The lack of DPS isn't a problem if your DPS wouldn't need to slow down during a fight. One bad crit can spell doom for the raid and a Paladin gains more threat faster than a Warrior would so that Warlock back-to-back Shadowbolt crit isn't going to pull threat.

No actually all you've done in this entire thread is tell people why THEY are wrong when THEY show you why paladin tanking isn't viable for vanilla/Classic. Anyone who doesn't support your delusion gets told why they are wrong. All you want from this thread is validation of your choice to make a paladin tank instead of sticking to what paladins were good at in vanilla...healing!

I've only had to do that because people like you who come in to the thread, without looking at the evidence and just keep spouting off nonsense. I am not seeking validation from anyone. I'm going to do it regardless of what a bunch of naysayers who can't understand basic math or how tanking actually works. One of you tried telling me they "saw a Warrior in Org" as their evidence of how a Warrior should gear. I have to wonder what the first people pushing Fury/Prot had to deal with, "you want to give up your shield and defense so that you can do more threat?!" Now it's the norm.

You don't go Fury/Prot because it's bulky, you do it strictly to generate way higher amounts of threat than you would sword and board. Paladins don't trade off their defense for threat in this, which make them an easier tank to heal while producing more threat. If you can't understand how that's a benefit, I can't help you. The age old argument was Paladins run OOM, this strategy solves that as it's cheap and you can use seal and judge wisdom on top of MP5 (at 150 it basically becomes a free cast every 5 seconds). That Paladins just can't put out as much threat as Warriors or even Druids, this solves that. The only thing it doesn't solve is the hand full of fights were having taunt is important, which this doesn't suddenly delete Warriors from the game. You can even continue to gear other Warriors because as I've stated a thousand times, they share very little loot in common since ya know, Paladins can't wear Warrior tier. Weird.

So the one minor drawback, is only applicable on a few fights, but the amount of dense people in this community can't understand that. It's amazing. Probably the same people who went around harassing people who played Retribution in Vanilla and BC.

[Sanctaidd]

Pro : +ST Threat
Paladins can generate more threat, on a single target, through class stacking than warriors, assuming you have enough # of a class to reach a TPS number higher than the warrior, whose TPS will scale more with the gear they acquire, than the paladin. On multiple targets, like Onyxia adds, Greater Blessing threat is dispersed.
+Gearing
Pallies can wear more defensive/caster oriented gear. Taking less gear from fury/rogue dps and fury prot tanks. They rely on their mana pool for aggro mainly with blessing spam. Spellpower could increase threat if not blessing spamming. So whatever MP5/Intellect would be necessary to prevent 'oom'-ing, in addition to your consumes/mana-pots. Afterwards you can focus on avoidance/mitigation stats like defense. Stacking enough may allow you to reach uncrushable with your Holy Shield / Redoubt, also should def be able to get to or near defense cap for crits.

Con: -Mistake_Recovery/Taunt
Unless you are blessing spamming from the start, you may struggle to pick up threat without a taunt. So in case you are the backup tank you need to be managing your threat very carefully. Mistakes happen - taunts are generally more reliable to fixing them. If there's a threat wipe mechanic, good luck catching back up too. Threat/aggro pulling/thresholds aren't as simple as it might seem to a-lot of people. Also, if a fight revolves around a taunt swap mechanic you are kind of useless, makes the designation of a permanent MT on a raid team tough for sure due to this.
-Mitigation
Compared to a warrior's improved shield block which is +75% block chance, versus the pallies 30% Holy Shield + 30% Redoubt proc (requires you to be CRIT). Both of these buffs can reach 100% uptime on most single target raid bosses. The 15% difference may or may not be a big deal - but it still makes becoming uncrushable as a pally more difficult than a warrior. Pallies likely have to stack more defense to become uncrushable, which then makes you less likely to be crit ---- giving you less Redoubt procs. Overall I'd say at least warriors using a shield+shield block are going to take quite a bit less damage assuming they use shield block on CD.

[Coldfrostzero]

Pro : +ST Threat
Paladins can generate more threat, on a single target, through class stacking than warriors, assuming you have enough # of a class to reach a TPS number higher than the warrior, whose TPS will scale more with the gear they acquire, than the paladin. On multiple targets, like Onyxia adds, Greater Blessing threat is dispersed.
+Gearing
Pallies can wear more defensive/caster oriented gear. Taking less gear from fury/rogue dps and fury prot tanks. They rely on their mana pool for aggro mainly with blessing spam. Spellpower could increase threat if not blessing spamming. So whatever MP5/Intellect would be necessary to prevent 'oom'-ing, in addition to your consumes/mana-pots. Afterwards you can focus on avoidance/mitigation stats like defense. Stacking enough may allow you to reach uncrushable with your Holy Shield / Redoubt, also should def be able to get to or near defense cap for crits.

Con: -Mistake_Recovery/Taunt
Unless you are blessing spamming from the start, you may struggle to pick up threat without a taunt. So in case you are the backup tank you need to be managing your threat very carefully. Mistakes happen - taunts are generally more reliable to fixing them. If there's a threat wipe mechanic, good luck catching back up too. Threat/aggro pulling/thresholds aren't as simple as it might seem to a-lot of people. Also, if a fight revolves around a taunt swap mechanic you are kind of useless, makes the designation of a permanent MT on a raid team tough for sure due to this.
-Mitigation
Compared to a warrior's improved shield block which is +75% block chance, versus the pallies 30% Holy Shield + 30% Redoubt proc (requires you to be CRIT). Both of these buffs can reach 100% uptime on most single target raid bosses. The 15% difference may or may not be a big deal - but it still makes becoming uncrushable as a pally more difficult than a warrior. Pallies likely have to stack more defense to become uncrushable, which then makes you less likely to be crit ---- giving you less Redoubt procs. Overall I'd say at least warriors using a shield+shield block are going to take quite a bit less damage assuming they use shield block on CD.

Yes, and as I've said before you wouldn't want a Paladin to MT the swap tank fights unless they are the first tank or your class stacking is so high that either Wing Buffet's threat reduction mechanic won't matter or the Paladin could overtake the Warrior/Druid who taunts off them. Which, if the Warrior/Druid is taunting specifically for Wing Buffet, they're the ones who have their threat reduced. That or BOP on the other tank. Probably best to let a Warrior or Druid tank it though, unless your guild/Paladin is playing perfectly. It definitely wouldn't be for the casual player.


The only thing about Shield Block vs Holy Shield+Redoubt to consider as well is that a warrior gets two charges for 5.5 seconds versus a Paladin who can go for 10 with Holy Shield or Redoubt procs. Partial blocks can't be crushing or critical so a Paladin remains uncrushable/crit longer. Warriors who are Fury/Prot tanking want to get crit to have an Enrage proc for more threat so it's not much different for a Paladin if they were to receive an occasional critical strike to proc Redoubt. Very few Warriors are Deep Prot and are generally DW tanking for speed kills and possibly swapping mid-fight due to a big crit or string of hits. I think what it more boils down to is the recovery aspect, if a Warrior can swap to shield and pop Shield Wall before dying (equipping a shield triggers GCD) than that's a clearly more ideal. It's a big if though, where a Paladin's mitigation stays pretty steady throughout the fight. I've died a couple of times spamming my Shield Wall macro on my Warrior in MC and BWL while tanking stuff and I've got 99.28% block if I can get a Shield Block off after the swap and I still die lol.

[Caperfin]

I have to wonder what the first people pushing Fury/Prot had to deal with, "you want to give up your shield and defense so that you can do more threat?!" Now it's the norm.

Shaman tanks are also going through a similar transitional phase of somewhat acceptance and eventual complete integration. All the off-meta tanks got a huge buff in Classic WoW and stuff is constantly getting improved/figured out.

[Xath]

Shaman tanks are also going through a similar transitional phase of somewhat acceptance and eventual complete integration. All the off-meta tanks got a huge buff in Classic WoW and stuff is constantly getting improved/figured out.

You can clear content with a hunter pet or voidwalker that doesn't make it even slightly optimal. Sure if you have a guild willing to put up with your "uniqueness" you can make it work currently because you are wearing gear that was buffed in 1.12 but it's still far far far far far far far far worse than running fury prot or even traditional prot.

[Coldfrostzero]

Shaman tanks are also going through a similar transitional phase of somewhat acceptance and eventual complete integration. All the off-meta tanks got a huge buff in Classic WoW and stuff is constantly getting improved/figured out.

I've yet to see a lot of Shaman tanks on Thalnos (my Horde server) as of yet past the initial first 30-40 levels. Yet to see one raid tank either. Though, I am fully aware that there have been Shaman tanks up to parts of ICC. I recall a Troll Shaman who was somewhat known Enhancement tank back then. As things like Paladin tanking see a bit of love, I'm sure that'll open up some room for experimentation for other classes too from other people.

[Hardkorr]

So, there's a lot of posts here and I skimmed through most of them halfway. What I do know is that I leveled a prot paladin in Classic all the way to 60, tanked dungeons most of the way up, and then swapped to holy to heal both prot warriors and prot paladins (and a few fury warrior tanks and bear tanks too).

Threat Kits
So I'm sure yall know that warriors have Taunt, Challenging Shout, and Mocking blow as taunt tools. Paladins, not so much. Sure there's Judgement, Holy Shock, and BoP on the target. If the mob is undead, even better because Exorcism shits out huge threat. But those are all targeted spells and I've had a lot of Judgements and Holy Shocks miss the boss. Like I remember tanking Mara and on the princess, she would reset threat. The bad way to go about it is to rely on Judgment or Holy Shock landing after her stomp. The good way as a paladin is to throw down consecrate while she is stomping so she can get right back on you. So sure paladin tanking doesn't have the taunt tools, but it requires a deeper understand of boss mechanics in order to make it work. I've never tanked in a raid so the GBoK thing sounds pretty great, however threat isn't the end all be all for tanking.

Redoubt
I think what a lot of people miss about redoubt is that you need to be critted for it to proc. I think what even more people are missing is that mobs tend to double crit A LOT in vanilla. Soloing and tanking in vanilla showed me that crits from mobs tend to come in pairs, even with redoubt up from the first one. So if you get crit by a boss you'll pretty much need to pop holy shield right after in between hits otherwise you'll be double critted. Also, unless tanking tiny packs, crits form a boss are pretty devastating. So you'll need to let your healers handle that spike damage at least once and possibly twice. Now you can stack +DEF stats, but that also reduces your chance to be crit. So you're either looking at +10-15% avoidance with virtually no redoubt procs or +30% spikey and inconsistent avoidance. Also, bosses don't really swing fast so usually redoubt falls off before all 5 blocks are used and even with holy shield up at the same time, 60% every 10 seconds (Holy Shield cd) is worse than 75% every 5 seconds (Shield Block cd). Block also does nothing for spell damage, which I'll get to later.

Single Target Melee mobs - Like an Ogre from DM
For damage reduction, paladins have auras, Lay on Hands, redoubt, self heals, Divine Protection Flashing, Holy Shield, & seal of light. Warriors have Shield Wall, Shield Block, Last Stand, and Defensive Stance. I don't play warrior so I might be missing more, but I only need to know this much to prove a point. When it comes to specifically single target melee mobs like bosses, or ogres, or whatever, warriors win out. Straight up. Needing to get crit for redoubt is bad. Devo aura isn't game changing. Lay on Hands gimps you unless near end of the fight. Self heals are okay. Divine Protection flashing only works if got stacks of some horrible debuff. Holy shield is only 30% block. Seal of light is basically a weak renew. On the other hand, Shield Block is absolutely game changing, since it means virtually no damage from a boss or hard hitting mob for a few seconds is a great grace period for healers. Last stand is like a weak Lay on Hands, but can be popped in the middle or early in the fight with no consequences for when a healer gets a bad silence, stun, or fear. For a paladin tank to recover like that, he'd need to swap to concentration aura (or should already have it) and cast a holy light for 2.5 seconds. In boss fights or heavy hitting mobs, seconds are critical.

Group Melee Mobs - Like Lashers
Using the same info from above, Paladins are king. Not even a question. Paladins have consecrate, ret aura, redoubt, and holy shield. Warrior have to target swap sunder for threat. Any pack with 3+ mobs, the paladin can grip and hold like a vice while a warrior needs to build up. Really a warrior would need a Force Reactive Disk (and epic shield) to do basically what a paladin does naturally. Also the damage reduction for paladins on melee mob packs is much greater due to uptime on redoubt procs with or without holy shield. For warriors to compare, they'd basically need Argent Defender to, again, do what a paladin does naturally. Also if a paladin has these items, they'd be even better than a warrior with them.

Spell casters - Literally any spell caster
Here's what really makes it for me. For Spell casters, warriors are so much better. I think everyone is too focused on boss taunts when really it is spell damage which devastates paladins. Sure paladins have auras and they can Hammer a mob for a 6 second stun, but warriors have a flat 10% spell damage reduction from defensive stance. They also have Shield Slam for a silence. They also have wall for multiple caster mobs or fat spells. Paladin tanks don't have the health pool of a bear tank to soak up lots of spell damage or the resistances/crowd control to handle casters. I stopped tanking not because of threat or needing a taunt, but because my hp would drop like a brick from spell damage mobs. Now a paladin can tank something like Strat pretty great, but only if they have T2 +Skullflame Shield or gear with equivalent resistances for shadow casters. If tanking a caster boss or any mob that does spell damage (flame breaths, shadow dmg auras, etc) the paladin is taking the full amount of that unless stacking resistance gear. Just like with the melee mob example, a warrior stacking resistance gear is even better than a paladin with resistance gear.

Anyways that's all I can remember for now. If anyone has any questions feel free to ask. I'll get to it later after work.

[Coldfrostzero]

So, there's a lot of posts here and I skimmed through most of them halfway. What I do know is that I leveled a prot paladin in Classic all the way to 60, tanked dungeons most of the way up, and then swapped to holy to heal both prot warriors and prot paladins (and a few fury warrior tanks and bear tanks too).

Threat Kits
So I'm sure yall know that warriors have Taunt, Challenging Shout, and Mocking blow as taunt tools. Paladins, not so much. Sure there's Judgement, Holy Shock, and BoP on the target. If the mob is undead, even better because Exorcism shits out huge threat. But those are all targeted spells and I've had a lot of Judgements and Holy Shocks miss the boss. Like I remember tanking Mara and on the princess, she would reset threat. The bad way to go about it is to rely on Judgment or Holy Shock landing after her stomp. The good way as a paladin is to throw down consecrate while she is stomping so she can get right back on you. So sure paladin tanking doesn't have the taunt tools, but it requires a deeper understand of boss mechanics in order to make it work. I've never tanked in a raid so the GBoK thing sounds pretty great, however threat isn't the end all be all for tanking.

Redoubt
I think what a lot of people miss about redoubt is that you need to be critted for it to proc. I think what even more people are missing is that mobs tend to double crit A LOT in vanilla. Soloing and tanking in vanilla showed me that crits from mobs tend to come in pairs, even with redoubt up from the first one. So if you get crit by a boss you'll pretty much need to pop holy shield right after in between hits otherwise you'll be double critted. Also, unless tanking tiny packs, crits form a boss are pretty devastating. So you'll need to let your healers handle that spike damage at least once and possibly twice. Now you can stack +DEF stats, but that also reduces your chance to be crit. So you're either looking at +10-15% avoidance with virtually no redoubt procs or +30% spikey and inconsistent avoidance. Also, bosses don't really swing fast so usually redoubt falls off before all 5 blocks are used and even with holy shield up at the same time, 60% every 10 seconds (Holy Shield cd) is worse than 75% every 5 seconds (Shield Block cd). Block also does nothing for spell damage, which I'll get to later.

Single Target Melee mobs - Like an Ogre from DM
For damage reduction, paladins have auras, Lay on Hands, redoubt, self heals, Divine Protection Flashing, Holy Shield, & seal of light. Warriors have Shield Wall, Shield Block, Last Stand, and Defensive Stance. I don't play warrior so I might be missing more, but I only need to know this much to prove a point. When it comes to specifically single target melee mobs like bosses, or ogres, or whatever, warriors win out. Straight up. Needing to get crit for redoubt is bad. Devo aura isn't game changing. Lay on Hands gimps you unless near end of the fight. Self heals are okay. Divine Protection flashing only works if got stacks of some horrible debuff. Holy shield is only 30% block. Seal of light is basically a weak renew. On the other hand, Shield Block is absolutely game changing, since it means virtually no damage from a boss or hard hitting mob for a few seconds is a great grace period for healers. Last stand is like a weak Lay on Hands, but can be popped in the middle or early in the fight with no consequences for when a healer gets a bad silence, stun, or fear. For a paladin tank to recover like that, he'd need to swap to concentration aura (or should already have it) and cast a holy light for 2.5 seconds. In boss fights or heavy hitting mobs, seconds are critical.

Group Melee Mobs - Like Lashers
Using the same info from above, Paladins are king. Not even a question. Paladins have consecrate, ret aura, redoubt, and holy shield. Warrior have to target swap sunder for threat. Any pack with 3+ mobs, the paladin can grip and hold like a vice while a warrior needs to build up. Really a warrior would need a Force Reactive Disk (and epic shield) to do basically what a paladin does naturally. Also the damage reduction for paladins on melee mob packs is much greater due to uptime on redoubt procs with or without holy shield. For warriors to compare, they'd basically need Argent Defender to, again, do what a paladin does naturally. Also if a paladin has these items, they'd be even better than a warrior with them.

Spell casters - Literally any spell caster
Here's what really makes it for me. For Spell casters, warriors are so much better. I think everyone is too focused on boss taunts when really it is spell damage which devastates paladins. Sure paladins have auras and they can Hammer a mob for a 6 second stun, but warriors have a flat 10% spell damage reduction from defensive stance. They also have Shield Slam for a silence. They also have wall for multiple caster mobs or fat spells. Paladin tanks don't have the health pool of a bear tank to soak up lots of spell damage or the resistances/crowd control to handle casters. I stopped tanking not because of threat or needing a taunt, but because my hp would drop like a brick from spell damage mobs. Now a paladin can tank something like Strat pretty great, but only if they have T2 +Skullflame Shield or gear with equivalent resistances for shadow casters. If tanking a caster boss or any mob that does spell damage (flame breaths, shadow dmg auras, etc) the paladin is taking the full amount of that unless stacking resistance gear. Just like with the melee mob example, a warrior stacking resistance gear is even better than a paladin with resistance gear.

Anyways that's all I can remember for now. If anyone has any questions feel free to ask. I'll get to it later after work.

You're discussing dungeon threat versus raid threat. While it's great to look at all aspects, our ability to tank dungeons isn't really questioned at all. Even threat drops can be dealt with as you've said with things like well timing your mechanics. If you're doing something like UBRS, having 2-3 of same class in the group you can spam GBoK and pick up Drekk even after he threat wipes you with Conflag. I've solo tanked UBRS fairly easily.

So far, on Onyxia I've been able to pick up Onyxia almost immediately on her landing. That's with getting fireballed 3 times in P2. It's ridiculous. I'll be tanking in MC this week as I showed my guild how good Paladin threat is.

Redoubt doesn't really lose value at all as it's a buffer for being crit. You can't be crit if you block or partially block an attack which if you're using Holy Shield in between Redoubt procs, you'll be less spikier than a Fury/Prot warrior would be since they can only dodge/parry. As you've stated, if you have Redoubt up and need to be reducing incoming damage, popping Holy Shield with it will make you even less likely to be hit or partially block. How mob attacks work is at certain thresholds, you push hits, crits, and crushing blows off the table. While it is nearly impossible to reach crit immunity without giving up on other extremely necessary stats, the length of Redoubt and Holy Shield lowers your chance to be crit far longer than a Warrior does. You also don't give up threat generation for having a shield, as blocking is a big amount of threat for Paladins due to BoSanc/Holy Shield ("thorns" damage from partial blocks still occur). The more block a paladin can gain, which a lot of items like Styleen's (https://classic.wowhead.com/item=194...mpeding-scarab) provide, the more bulky we become without losing threat like a Warrior does tossing on a shield. I tank as a Fury/Prot Warrior in BWL as well, and on fights like Chromaggus you're going to be wearing a shield especially the last 20% and people need to watch their threat. Paladins spamming GBoK don't lose their threat generation for tossing on a shield since they are going to be tanking with it on.

Dire Maul isn't that concerning as a Prot Paladin at all. If you're struggling through Dire Maul, get better healers or learn what mobs to focus down first. The ogres hit incredibly fast when they enrage, which means you shouldn't be using Holy Shield if Redoubt is up, use Holy Shield to cover when Redoubt charges get used up. You should never cast while tanking. You cannot dodge/block/parry while casting (instant casts don't count against you).

Dealing with caster mobs is solved in two ways: focusing down caster mobs down first and utilizing LoS. If you're with a priest, they can PW:S you with no consequence which will absorb most if not all the spell damage safely. You can have a Priest pre-shield you before a pull so that Weaken Soul is nearly gone or gone by the time PW:S falls off, allowing for another PW:S to be cast again. You don't lose anything but thorns damage threat if a Priest shields you where a Warrior cannot gain rage at all from the lack of damage taken (where the majority of their rage comes from outside of critical strikes). If they are shadow/fire/frost mobs, you can aura swap and reduce or fully resist them a lot easier.

Couple of youtubers who write guides on Prot Paladin tanking:
https://www.youtube.com/user/ConkerPrime/videos (Askalon)
https://www.youtube.com/user/DetectableTV/videos (Holyfrog)

I would stick to their videos from as late as 3 months ago, as most things prior is out of date due to it being before the clarification of GBoKs causing massive amounts of threat.